Your Kitchen Is A Dirty Place....

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Gregory Morrow, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/28/dining/28KITC.html

    Squeaky Clean? Not Even Close

    By AMANDA HESSER

    Published: January 28, 2004

    WHEN mad cow disease was discovered in Washington State recently, it made headlines for days and
    brought action from the federal government. Coupled with a number of E. coli scares, it caused some
    Americans to swear off hamburger.

    But most people don't seem to worry about what experts say is a petri dish for food-borne illness:
    the home kitchen.

    "Everybody is so acutely aware of mad cow disease," said Janet Anderson, a clinical associate
    professor of nutrition and food sciences at Utah State University, "but people aren't aware of
    the fact that they don't even wash their hands when they enter their kitchens, which is a much
    greater risk."

    Professor Anderson filmed more than 100 people preparing dinner and found that only two did not cross-
    contaminate raw meat with fresh vegetables.

    It is not only people's hands, though. Dish towels, sinks, refrigerator door handles and warm,
    moist, crevice-filled sponges are also breeding grounds for bacteria.

    "A sponge that's been in use for no more than two or three days in a kitchen will harbor millions of
    bacteria," said Elizabeth Scott, co-director of the Simmons Center for Hygiene and Health in the
    Home at Simmons College in Boston. That's a problem, she said, "if you pick up the pathogen or a
    pathogenic E. coli, salmonella or campylobacter on the sponge."

    She added: "That means that any time you use the sponge to wipe up a surface you are potentially
    spreading those pathogens."

    These pathogens are a potential problem mainly for infants, the sick elderly and people with
    compromised immune systems. But when allowed to multiply on food, they can make the average
    person sick.

    "The basic reality is that the risks that scare people and the risks that kill people are very
    different," said Dr. Peter M. Sandman, a risk communication consultant in Princeton, N.J. "Risks
    that you control," Dr. Sandman said, "are much less a source of outrage than risks that are out of
    your control. In the case of mad cow, it feels like it's beyond my control. I can't tell if my meat
    has prions in it or not. I can't see it, I can't smell it. Whereas dirt in my own kitchen is very
    much in my own control. I can clean my sponges. I can clean the floor."

    Dread is another factor, Dr. Sandman said. People can deal with sick stomachs, but they absolutely
    dread the idea of rotting brains.

    Fair enough, except that many of the estimated 76 million cases of food-borne illnesses in the
    United States each year are contracted in the home, and many can be prevented.

    Dean Cliver, a professor of food safety at the University of California, Davis, found that
    microwaving sponges - cellulose ones, not the natural kind - wipes out harmful bacteria. "We did
    soak sponges in some pretty bad things," he said, "and one minute in the nuke and that pretty
    much did it."

    Dishcloths also become saturated with bacteria, although since they dry more quickly than sponges,
    bacteria are less likely to breed. They can be microwaved, too, or simply laundered regularly.

    Professor Cliver's other notable discovery involved cutting boards. "Somewhere along the line, wood
    got a bad name," Professor Cliver said. Part of the blame, he said, must go to the rubber industry,
    which assailed wood cutting boards in order to promote hard rubber and plastic. In recent years, it
    has become conventional wisdom that plastic cutting boards are safer and easier to clean than wood
    cutting boards. Even the Food and Drug Administration says that plastic is less likely to harbor
    bacteria and easier to clean.

    But in a study Professor Cliver conducted, he found that cellulose in wood absorbs bacteria but will
    not release it. "We've never been able to get the bacteria down in the wood back up on the knife to
    contaminate food later," he said.

    Plastic absorbs bacteria in a different way. "When a knife cuts into the plastic surface, little
    cracks radiate out from the cut," Professor Cliver said. The bacteria, he said, "seem to get down in
    those knife cuts and they hang out. They go dormant. Drying will kill, say, 90 percent of them, but
    the rest could hang around for weeks."

    In one test he did, raw chicken juices were spread on samples of used wood and plastic cutting
    boards. Both boards were washed in hot soapy water and dried, then knives were used to simulate
    cutting vegetables for a salad. No bacteria appeared on the knives cut on wood, but there were
    plenty on the knives used on a plastic board.

    Professor Cliver found that running plastic boards through the dishwasher only spread the bacteria
    around. The bacteria in the cracks remained. He said that the water in dishwashers must get hotter
    than 140 degrees or all sorts of bacteria can survive.

    Wood cutting boards may be microwaved for five minutes, but Professor Cliver warned that some wood
    cutting boards contain metal pieces within. He added, "Some people who tried their boards in the
    microwave had some spectacular fireworks."

    Even with clean sponges and cutting boards, no one's kitchen will ever be germ-free because the food
    supply is not sterile. In 1998, Consumer Reports, for instance, found that 71 percent of store-
    bought chicken contained harmful bacteria. Most bacteria in food can be killed if the food is cooked
    properly. But much of the harm happens before the food gets near the oven.

    In an experiment performed by Professor Anderson of Utah State University, she and her colleagues
    covered a chicken with a product called Glo Germ, which is invisible in daylight but visible when
    exposed to ultraviolet light. The chicken was given to a home cook, who was asked to prepare it. By
    the time the chicken was done, Professor Anderson said, the light revealed chicken juices
    everywhere - on the counter, in the sink, on cabinet handles, even on the sippy cup of the cook's
    2-year-old child.

    Chuck Gerba, a professor of environmental microbiology at the University of Arizona who has studied
    bacteria in home kitchens, said that he found that people who had the cleanest-looking kitchens were
    often the dirtiest. Because "clean" people wipe up so much, they often end up spreading bacteria all
    over the place. The cleanest kitchens, he said, were in the homes of bachelors, who never wiped up
    and just put their dirty dishes in the sink.

    The biggest obstacle seems to be simply getting people to wash their hands. Professor Anderson found
    that only 34 percent of her subjects washed their hands before cooking, and most failed to use soap.
    Washing hands in hot soapy water for at least 20 seconds rinses off surface bacteria and makes it
    difficult for bacteria to cling to skin.

    The less bacteria that you pick up, the less likely you will fall ill. Getting people to change
    their habits, however, is a big mountain to climb.

    The truth is, as Dr. Sandman pointed out, bacteria in the home kitchen is simply not mysterious or
    weird enough. To respond to it, you have to do something very banal: wash your hands. And that's
    just not as compelling as taking a dramatic stand and halting beef consumption in the face of a brain-
    rotting disease.

    </
     
    Tags:


  2. Wardna

    Wardna Guest

    >Dishcloths etc.

    Science, if that's what it is, is always open to appeals from reality.

    I've used the same plastic (Joyce Chen) cutting board on both meat (especially chicken) and
    vegetables for 20 years, cleaning it only with hot water and dishwashing fluid in the sink. I,
    personally, have had two infectious diseases severe enough to cause fever in the past 10 years, and
    the kids, respectively, have averaged less than one every three years, which is a good deal under
    the average. None of us has ever had anything resembling salmonella symptoms, even though we also
    have a pet semi-aquatic turtle, whose pump and thermostat also get cleaned in that self-same sink.

    I'm not a neatness freak; just take ordinary, reasonable precautions--but, I would guess, fewer than
    the subjects in the controlled studies here cited did.

    These warnings that kitchens are dirty places circulate periodically; I remember hearing about a
    similar study when I was in high school and another one about 15 years ago, both making the same
    mention of chickens (although not raising the plastic cutting board point). But these warnings never
    seem to coordinate with demographic data measuring actual outbreaks.

    Neil
     
  3. WardNA wrote:
    >>Dishcloths etc.
    >
    >
    > Science, if that's what it is, is always open to appeals from reality.
    >
    > I've used the same plastic (Joyce Chen) cutting board on both meat (especially chicken) and
    > vegetables for 20 years, cleaning it only with hot water and dishwashing fluid in the sink. I,
    > personally, have had two infectious diseases severe enough to cause fever in the past 10 years,
    > and the kids, respectively, have averaged less than one every three years, which is a good deal
    > under the average. None of us has ever had anything resembling salmonella symptoms, even though
    > we also have a pet semi-aquatic turtle, whose pump and thermostat also get cleaned in that self-
    > same sink.
    >
    > I'm not a neatness freak; just take ordinary, reasonable precautions--but, I would guess, fewer
    > than the subjects in the controlled studies here cited did.
    >
    > These warnings that kitchens are dirty places circulate periodically; I remember hearing about a
    > similar study when I was in high school and another one about 15 years ago, both making the same
    > mention of chickens (although not raising the plastic cutting board point). But these warnings
    > never seem to coordinate with demographic data measuring actual outbreaks.
    >
    > Neil

    Science, unless it's a conjecture, uses the scientific method. We are already superbly advanced in
    knowing what microorganisms can cause disease, and pretty much how they do it.

    Out of the many dinners that I have been invited to, I have always observed many practices which I
    frown upon:

    Wiping raw egg from hands with the kitchen towel;

    cleaning hands with the towel after just washing with plain tap water;

    using utensils on raw meat, and after a simple water wash, using the same to cut raw veggies going
    into a non cooked salad;

    cleaning sweat from the face of the cook, with the kitchen towel (this one just disgusts me);

    kitchen towels that have been in the sink for days, without being properly cleaned (in my case I use
    plain bleach,)

    Regarding your statistics with getting sick; I believe them. Only because our meat now a days is
    much cleaner, inspection and testing is more common, and spread is less likely because of these two
    factors. But one must err on the side of caution. If you ever suffered from a bad case of
    gastroenteritis (which puts some people in a hospital,) you would take the proper precautions. And
    I'm not talking about the other precautions which involve cooking the various meats, at the
    recommended temperatures.

    An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

    Rich

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
     
  4. Sheryl Rosen

    Sheryl Rosen Guest

    in article [email protected], Not Available at
    [email protected] wrote on 1/29/04 9:50 PM:

    > Another disgusting practice is to have a parakeet in the kitchen. Sorry if I offend you pet owners
    > but animals should be kept outside. The germs they carry are very dangerous to your health and
    > your children's well-being.
    >

    YOU should be kept outside.
     
  5. Nancy Young

    Nancy Young Guest

    Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    >
    > in article [email protected], Not Available at [email protected] wrote
    > on 1/29/04 9:50 PM:
    >
    > > Another disgusting practice is to have a parakeet in the kitchen. Sorry if I offend you pet
    > > owners but animals should be kept outside. The germs they carry are very dangerous to your
    > > health and your children's well-being.
    > >
    >
    > YOU should be kept outside.

    (laugh) Like there is a law saying you have to have pets. You don't like them, don't get them.
    Especially don't get them and leave them outside to annoy the neighbors and let them roam. Not to
    mention pick up ticks and fleas and god knows what disease. Just don't get pets.

    nancy (Moxie the cat stays *inside*)
     
  6. Frogleg

    Frogleg Guest

    On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:03:01 GMT, Richard Periut <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >WardNA wrote:

    >> These warnings that kitchens are dirty places circulate periodically; I remember hearing about a
    >> similar study when I was in high school and another one about 15 years ago, both making the same
    >> mention of chickens (although not raising the plastic cutting board point). But these warnings
    >> never seem to coordinate with demographic data measuring actual outbreaks.
    >
    >Science, unless it's a conjecture, uses the scientific method. We are already superbly advanced in
    >knowing what microorganisms can cause disease, and pretty much how they do it.
    >
    >Out of the many dinners that I have been invited to, I have always observed many practices which I
    >frown upon:

    There *has* to be a balance between normal cleanliness and sterile perfection. Else none of us would
    ever touch money without washing it first. And some do. They are thought to be rather peculiar. :)
    Because we can't live in a microbeless world *doesn't* mean we shouldn't wash dishes, clean
    counters, store food properly, and wash hands frequently.

    Contemplation and study of the number of disease organisms in a kitchen (or bathroom or office or
    bed or carpet) is *always* horrifying. Yet outside 'bubble children,' we manage to survive. Pouring
    back undrunk milk sounds pretty horrifying to *me*. And false economy, too. Again, there's a balance
    between utterly nasty and statistically unsanitary.

    Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags. I
    put the individual bags into a larger, more sturdy plastic wrapping. Same problem. The big bag goes
    into the freezer, where it touches other containers. Even if I religiously wash hands, knives, and
    cutting boards after these operations (which I do), a chicken-o-scope would show many unscoured bits
    of chicken juice. I'm not going to stop washing, but I'm also not going to try and sterilize the
    kitchen every time I handle food.
     
  7. Goomba38

    Goomba38 Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    >
    > Another disgusting practice is to have a parakeet in the kitchen. Sorry if I offend you pet owners
    > but animals should be kept outside. The germs they carry are very dangerous to your health and
    > your children's well-being.

    While I don't believe pets need to be involved in the food preparation area, they're hardly a
    routine danger being in the house and have been found to be beneficial to children (exposure to pets
    from a young age has been found to decrease allergy development actually). Goomba
     
  8. Frogleg wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:03:01 GMT, Richard Periut <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>WardNA wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>These warnings that kitchens are dirty places circulate periodically; I remember hearing about a
    >>>similar study when I was in high school and another one about 15 years ago, both making the same
    >>>mention of chickens (although not raising the plastic cutting board point). But these warnings
    >>>never seem to coordinate with demographic data measuring actual outbreaks.
    >>
    >>Science, unless it's a conjecture, uses the scientific method. We are already superbly advanced in
    >>knowing what microorganisms can cause disease, and pretty much how they do it.
    >>
    >>Out of the many dinners that I have been invited to, I have always observed many practices which I
    >>frown upon:
    >
    >
    > There *has* to be a balance between normal cleanliness and sterile perfection. Else none of us
    > would ever touch money without washing it first. And some do. They are thought to be rather
    > peculiar. :) Because we can't live in a microbeless world *doesn't* mean we shouldn't wash
    > dishes, clean counters, store food properly, and wash hands frequently.
    >
    > Contemplation and study of the number of disease organisms in a kitchen (or bathroom or office or
    > bed or carpet) is *always* horrifying. Yet outside 'bubble children,' we manage to survive.
    > Pouring back undrunk milk sounds pretty horrifying to *me*. And false economy, too. Again, there's
    > a balance between utterly nasty and statistically unsanitary.
    >
    > Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    > contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags.

    That's where I have my wife or one of my daughters hold the freezer bag open, while I drop each
    indivual chicken in the bag, without it touching the outside. Then, I clean my hands with soap and
    water, and seal it. So I don't see why you can't get the chicken into the interior of the bags,
    without contaminating its exterior???

    Rich

    I put the
    > individual bags into a larger, more sturdy plastic wrapping. Same problem. The big bag goes into
    > the freezer, where it touches other containers. Even if I religiously wash hands, knives, and
    > cutting boards after these operations (which I do), a chicken-o-scope would show many unscoured
    > bits of chicken juice. I'm not going to stop washing, but I'm also not going to try and sterilize
    > the kitchen every time I handle food.

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
     
  9. Frogleg wrote:

    > Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    > contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags.

    Sure you can - just use tongs to handle the fowl...zip the bags shut...then spray all "affected"
    areas. e.g. the outside of the bags, etc. with hydrogen peroxide....

    I put the
    > individual bags into a larger, more sturdy plastic wrapping. Same problem. The big bag goes into
    > the freezer, where it touches other containers. Even if I religiously wash hands, knives, and
    > cutting boards after these operations (which I do), a chicken-o-scope would show many unscoured
    > bits of chicken juice. I'm not going to stop washing, but I'm also not going to try and sterilize
    > the kitchen every time I handle food.

    No. Just follow my advice as per above: I have a quart bottle of hydrogen peroxide with a sprayer
    attachment...just spray where needed....easy!

    --
    Best Greg
     
  10. "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Frogleg wrote:
    >
    > > Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw
    > > chicken' contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface
    > > of bags.
    >
    >
    > Sure you can - just use tongs to handle the fowl...zip the bags
    shut...then
    > spray all "affected" areas. e.g. the outside of the bags, etc. with
    hydrogen
    > peroxide....
    >
    >
    > I put the
    > > individual bags into a larger, more sturdy plastic wrapping. Same problem. The big bag goes into
    > > the freezer, where it touches other containers. Even if I religiously wash hands, knives, and
    > > cutting boards after these operations (which I do), a chicken-o-scope would show many unscoured
    > > bits of chicken juice. I'm not going to stop washing, but I'm also not going to try and
    > > sterilize the kitchen every time I handle food.
    >
    >
    > No. Just follow my advice as per above: I have a quart bottle of
    hydrogen
    > peroxide with a sprayer attachment...just spray where needed....easy!
    >
    > --
    > Best Greg
    >

    Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    require peroxide.

    People, we didn't get sick from our kitchens; it's what we brought into our kitchens that
    made us sick.

    Jack Antibiotics
     
  11. Frogleg

    Frogleg Guest

    On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 04:51:25 GMT, Richard Periut <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Frogleg wrote:

    >> Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    >> contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags.
    >
    >That's where I have my wife or one of my daughters hold the freezer bag open, while I drop each
    >indivual chicken in the bag, without it touching the outside. Then, I clean my hands with soap and
    >water, and seal it. So I don't see why you can't get the chicken into the interior of the bags,
    >without contaminating its exterior???

    Send one of your wives or daughters over and I'll give it a shot. The cat doesn't have thumbs. :)
     
  12. Frogleg <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:03:01 GMT, Richard Periut <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>WardNA wrote:
    >
    >There *has* to be a balance between normal cleanliness and sterile perfection. Else none of us
    >would ever touch money without washing it first. And some do. They are thought to be rather
    >peculiar. :) Because we can't live in a microbeless world *doesn't* mean we shouldn't wash dishes,
    >clean counters, store food properly, and wash hands frequently.
    >
    >
    >Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    >contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags. I
    >put the individual bags into a larger, more sturdy plastic wrapping. Same problem. The big bag goes
    >into the freezer, where it touches other containers. Even if I religiously wash hands, knives, and
    >cutting boards after these operations (which I do), a chicken-o-scope would show many unscoured
    >bits of chicken juice. I'm not going to stop washing, but I'm also not going to try and sterilize
    >the kitchen every time I handle food.

    The saving grace here is that you are promptly placing the 'contaminated' bag into an environment in
    which the 'spoilers' become inactive and are unlikely to continue producing toxins.

    BTW - building on an idea I took from the preserving group... there is a level of contamination
    (density of 'spoilers') that pressure/time/temperature cannot overcome; probably the same way with
    my immune system. So it makes sense to modulate the 'spoiler' population to give both my immune
    system and my preserving techniques a fighting chance. And it gives me an excuse to clean the dried
    tomato sauce off the stove. - Mike
     
  13. Sheryl Rosen

    Sheryl Rosen Guest

    in article [email protected], Jack Schidt® at
    [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:

    > Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    > require peroxide.

    Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies now
    than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight, to the point that when they
    are exposed to something, their immune system looks at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What am I supposed
    to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, "Jack Schidt®" <[email protected]>
    wrote: (snip)
    > Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    > require peroxide. Jack Antibiotics

    A-men, Bruddah!
    --
    -Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> updated 1-31-04 A good friend will come and bail you out of jail; a
    true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn,that was fun!"
     
  15. Sheryl Rosen wrote:

    > in article [email protected], Jack Schidt®
    at
    > [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:
    >
    > > Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    > > require peroxide.
    >
    > Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies
    now
    > than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight,
    to
    > the point that when they are exposed to something, their immune system
    looks
    > at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What am I supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."

    Actually Sheryl, when handling chicken I like things as "clean" as possible. Chicken is the one meat
    that I really don't like handling...other meats and fish don't bother me, but chicken I find "gross"
    to handle...no reason for you to get all hysterical because another poster likes to keep their
    working area somewhat clean.

    Of course you are painting with a broad brush, but we are all used to that by now. Some things just
    never change :)

    --
    Best Greg
     
  16. Frogleg wrote:
    > On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 04:51:25 GMT, Richard Periut <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Frogleg wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>Eg.: I often package chicken breasts into individual freezer bags. And consider the 'raw chicken'
    >>>contamination. Can't get the chicken into the bags without touching the outside surface of bags.
    >>
    >>That's where I have my wife or one of my daughters hold the freezer bag open, while I drop each
    >>indivual chicken in the bag, without it touching the outside. Then, I clean my hands with soap and
    >>water, and seal it. So I don't see why you can't get the chicken into the interior of the bags,
    >>without contaminating its exterior???
    >
    >
    > Send one of your wives or daughters over and I'll give it a shot. The cat doesn't have thumbs. :)

    OK, then use some sort of grasping device, tongs, et cetera.

    Rich

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
     
  17. Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    > in article [email protected], Jack Schidt® at [email protected]
    > wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:
    >
    >
    >>Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    >>require peroxide.
    >
    >
    > Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies now
    > than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight, to the point that when
    > they are exposed to something, their immune system looks at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What am I
    > supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
    >
    >

    Um, can you post a respected scientific source to back that up? Cause I sure have not heard of that?
    Or is that just a conjecture?

    Rich

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
     
  18. Sheryl Rosen

    Sheryl Rosen Guest

    in article [email protected], Richard Periut at
    [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04 7:02 PM:

    >> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    >>> in article [email protected], Jack Schidt® at [email protected]
    >>> wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    >>>> require peroxide.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies
    >>> now than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight, to the point that
    >>> when they are exposed to something, their immune system looks at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What
    >>> am I supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    >> Um, can you post a respected scientific source to back that up? Cause I sure have not heard of
    >> that? Or is that just a conjecture?
    >>
    >> Rich

    Google search on "antibacterial cleansers"+link+illness

    This was the first hit:

    (Assuming, of course, you consider the New England Journal of Medicine a "respected
    scientific source".)

    > Kids Should Play In the Dirt With Their Buddies Exposure to germs early on could eliminate asthma
    > problems later     When it comes to playing in the dirt with their friends, kids might be right
    > after all. Not only is it fun, but it could help them develop immunities that could protect them
    > from asthma when they get older.
    >
    > Children who grow up in sterile environments run a greater risk of having problems with their
    > immune systems later in life, according to Dr. Leonard Bielory, director of the Asthma and Allergy
    > Research Center at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Newark. He's quoted
    > in an Associated Press story on C-Health.
    >
    > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says asthma cases have increased 158 percent from
    > 1990-98. Many of the new cases involve children. Experts have been at a loss to explain the
    > increase, but some say squeaky-clean houses, scrubbed with antibacterial cleansers, may be among
    > the culprits.
    >
    > Other factors include the number of siblings, or other children the child is exposed to in the
    > first six months of life.
    >
    > The study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, involved 1,000 children who were
    > followed for 15 years. Children who had frequent exposure to other children developed protection
    > from asthma, but only if that exposure happened in the first six months of life, while the immune
    > system was developing.
    >
    > To find out more about childhood asthma, you can get the facts from the American Lung Association,
    > which also has information on early warning signs of childhood asthma.
    >
    >   28-AUG-2000   Copyright © 2000 Rx Remedy, Inc.
    > ----
    >
    And this one is quotes the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association.

    > We all want our homes clean, right? But how clean is clean enough? Is there such a thing as a
    > house that is too clean? Starting around 1997, American consumers were introduced to the newest
    > defenses in our ongoing war against germs: antibacterial cleaners. The first antibacterial
    > products were kitchen and bathroom cleaners, all of them promising to make our kitchens and
    > bathrooms virtually germ-free. One cleaner promises destruction of 99.9% of bacteria in your
    > bathroom. The kitchen and bathroom cleaners were quickly followed by antibacterial hand soaps
    > and lotions, dishwashing liquids, body washes, window cleaners, and just about all other types
    > of cleaner used in the home. Today, in addition to all of the antibacterial cleaning products on
    > the market, some companies have begun to impregnate the plastic used to make cutting boards,
    > toothbrushes, and children¹s toys with an antibacterial agent. With the multitude of
    > antibacterial cleaning products on the market, and an estimated one-half of all soap in the
    > United States containing antibacterial ingredients, it¹s not hard to imagine a virtually sterile
    > environment in which to live and raise our families. But is living in a sterile home really
    > what¹s best for us? Fifty years ago, penicillin was the world¹s newest wonder drug, an
    > antibiotic used to treat Streptococcus infections. Among other illnesses, Streptococcus is the
    > bacterium that causes strep throat. Penicillin worked great at wiping out these infections,
    > until the Streptococcus bacteria mutated and became resistant to treatment by penicillin. New
    > and stronger antibiotics were developed, and those too, worked to treat strep infections until,
    > once again, the bacteria became resistant. Streptococcus is just one example of many bacteria
    > resistant to some antibiotics. In June of 2000, the World Health Organization warned that
    > antibacterial products directly contribute to the rise in antibiotic-resistant bacteria. The
    > American Medical Association (AMA) says ³(bacterial) resistance ascribed to overuse of
    > antibiotics is a growing problem, and there is concern that some types of infections will
    > eventually not be treatable with antibiotics². On June 13, 2000, the AMA advised consumers to
    > avoid extensive use of ³antibacterial soaps, lotions, and other household products². The AMA has
    > also urged the Food and Drug Administration to increase regulation of antibacterial products.
    > So, on one side, we have the advertisements for antibacterial cleaners telling us that killing
    > 99.9% of germs in our homes is a good thing. On the other side, we have the World Health
    > Organization and the American Medical Association telling us that use of antibacterial products
    > might NOT be such a good thing. For the millions of Americans who just want a clean home,
    > whether to use, or not use, antibacterial cleaners can be a confusing decision to make.
    > According to most experts, the following guidelines are your best bet for keeping your home
    > clean and your family safe, while avoiding the risks associated with antibacterial cleaners:
    > *Wash your hands thoroughly, and often. *Limit your use of antibacterial products. *Use bleach
    > to clean your bathroom. *Plain old soap and hot water remain the best ingredients to wash your
    > hands, body, and dishes. *Use separate cutting boards for raw meat and foods such as fruits and
    > vegetables that may not be cooked before eating. *Wash all fruits and vegetables, either in
    > soapy water (rinse THOROUGHLY), or in one of the new fruit and vegetable washes. *Wash all
    > kitchen surfaces, dishes, and utensils in hot, soapy water. Make sure you rinse thoroughly. If
    > possible, put everything (including cutting boards) in the dishwasher. *Every time you run your
    > dishwasher, throw your kitchen sponge in. *Don¹t wipe your counters with a sponge that¹s been
    > sitting on your sink. This can deposit even more bacteria on your countertops. Damp sponges are
    > an excellent breeding ground for bacteria. Use paper towels, or replace your dishrag every day
    > with a clean one. New parents and parents-to-be worry about bacteria and viruses making their
    > little one(s) sick. While this is certainly a concern, especially when there is a newborn in the
    > home, it¹s important to remember that a sterile environment is NOT in the baby¹s best interest.
    > Why? Bacteria and viruses are present in our homes, at our work, anywhere and everywhere we go.
    > What prevents us from getting sick from these bacteria and viruses? Antibodies. Our bodies make
    > antibodies in response to exposure to bacteria and viruses. Chickenpox is an excellent example.
    > Chickenpox is a common childhood illness. When we contract the virus that causes chickenpox, our
    > bodies make antibodies to fight the illness. Those antibodies stick with us (antibodies for some
    > viruses and bacteria, such as chickenpox, last for a lifetime), and prevent us from getting sick
    > again from the same virus. However, there are viruses out there (like the virus that causes the
    > common cold) that change their genetic composition on a regular basis. This means that the
    > antibodies we made for last month¹s cold may not necessarily work on this month¹s cold! If there
    > were no exposure to bacteria and viruses, how would we make antibodies? Babies who are exposed
    > to bacteria and viruses at an early age make antibodies more quickly than those babies who are
    > kept in virtually sterile environments do. Some illnesses (such as chickenpox), while relatively
    > minor in children, can be very serious in adults. Those children that are exposed to the
    > chickenpox virus at an early age are less likely to have complications from the illness than
    > those exposed later in life. While your instinct may be to scrub your house from top to bottom
    > with every antibacterial product you can find in order to make your home as germ-free as
    > possible, remember that germs are crucial for development of baby¹s immune system. Are germs
    > bad? Some bacteria and viruses cause illness in humans, and some maintain bacterial harmony in
    > our bodies. Some bacteria and viruses are neutral to humans, causing neither illness nor
    > benefit. Are antibacterial cleaners bad? Not necessarily. When used in moderation, antibacterial
    > cleaners can help you keep your home clean. Limit your use of antibacterial products to one or
    > two products. For instance, use an antibacterial spray for your doorknobs, and a bottle of
    > antibacterial hand cleaner for outings. Clean the rest of your house with bleach and/or regular
    > cleaners. Use caution when exposing yourself and your children to unknown environments, but
    > don¹t limit outings due to fear of infection and illness. Don¹t try to create a sterile
    > environment for yourself and your family. In addition to the potential for antibiotic-resistant
    > bacteria, it¹s a virtually impossible task, and you may just be lulled into a false sense of
    > security. That one square inch on your kitchen counter you missed with your bottle of
    > antibacterial kitchen spray could contain literally millions of bacteria! Instead of spending
    > the entire day trying to annihilate every last germ, take your kids to the zoo, or go for a
    > walk. Get yourself an ice cream cone with the money you would have spent on every antibacterial
    > product you saw in the cleaning aisle at your grocery store. Keep your house clean, but above
    > all else, have fun and enjoy life! Written by Kathleen Newton
     
  19. Sheryl Rosen

    Sheryl Rosen Guest

    in article [email protected], Gregory Morrow at
    [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04
    5:12 PM:

    >
    > Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    >
    >> in article [email protected], Jack Schidt®
    > at
    >> [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:
    >>
    >>> Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    >>> require peroxide.
    >>
    >> Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies
    > now
    >> than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight,
    > to
    >> the point that when they are exposed to something, their immune system
    > looks
    >> at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What am I supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
    >
    >
    > Actually Sheryl, when handling chicken I like things as "clean" as possible. Chicken is the one
    > meat that I really don't like handling...other meats and fish don't bother me, but chicken I find
    > "gross" to handle...no reason for you to get all hysterical because another poster likes to keep
    > their working area somewhat clean.
    >
    > Of course you are painting with a broad brush, but we are all used to that by now. Some things
    > just never change :)

    You need to learn how to read, Greggy-Pooh. Nobody is saying "don't wash up" before and after
    handling food, or using the bathroom. Nobody is saying not to clean your house.

    Soap and hot water is our friend, and in fact, does a darn good job of getting things clean.

    My point is that disinfecting everything in sight may be overkill, and is probably doing more harm
    than good, because it causes bacteria to mutate and become resistant to antibiotics.

    Several studies have confirmed this, I didn't just make it up out of thin air.

    Do a Google search and see for yourself.
     
  20. Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    > in article [email protected], Richard Periut at [email protected] wrote on 1/31/04
    > 7:02 PM:
    >
    >
    >>>Sheryl Rosen wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>in article [email protected], Jack Schidt® at [email protected]
    >>>>wrote on 1/31/04 1:16 AM:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>Of course you know you're coddling your immune system so when you really need it, it's gonna
    >>>>>require peroxide.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Ain't that the truth! Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and allergies
    >>>>now than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in sight, to the point that
    >>>>when they are exposed to something, their immune system looks at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What
    >>>>am I supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Um, can you post a respected scientific source to back that up? Cause I sure have not heard of
    >>>that? Or is that just a conjecture?
    >>>
    >>>Rich
    >>
    >
    > Google search on "antibacterial cleansers"+link+illness
    >
    > This was the first hit:
    >
    > (Assuming, of course, you consider the New England Journal of Medicine a "respected scientific
    > source".)
    >
    >
    >>Kids Should Play In the Dirt With Their Buddies Exposure to germs early on could eliminate asthma
    >>problems later
    >>
    >>
    >>When it comes to playing in the dirt with their friends, kids might be right after all. Not only
    >>is it fun, but it could help them develop immunities that could protect them from asthma when they
    >>get older.
    >>
    >>Children who grow up in sterile environments run a greater risk of having problems with their
    >>immune systems later in life, according to Dr. Leonard Bielory, director of the Asthma and Allergy
    >>Research Center at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in Newark. He's quoted
    >>in an Associated Press story on C-Health.
    >>
    >>The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says asthma cases have increased 158 percent from
    >>1990-98. Many of the new cases involve children. Experts have been at a loss to explain the
    >>increase, but some say squeaky-clean houses, scrubbed with antibacterial cleansers, may be among
    >>the culprits.
    >>
    >>Other factors include the number of siblings, or other children the child is exposed to in the
    >>first six months of life.
    >>
    >>The study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, involved 1,000 children who were
    >>followed for 15 years. Children who had frequent exposure to other children developed protection
    >>from asthma, but only if that exposure happened in the first six months of life, while the immune
    >>system was developing.
    >>
    >>To find out more about childhood asthma, you can get the facts from the American Lung Association,
    >>which also has information on early warning signs of childhood asthma.
    >>
    >>
    >>28-AUG-2000
    >>
    >>Copyright © 2000 Rx Remedy, Inc.
    >>----
    >>
    >
    > And this one is quotes the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association.
    >
    >
    >>We all want our homes clean, right? But how clean is clean enough? Is there such a thing as a
    >>house that is too clean? Starting around 1997, American consumers were introduced to the newest
    >>defenses in our ongoing war against germs: antibacterial cleaners. The first antibacterial
    >>products were kitchen and bathroom cleaners, all of them promising to make our kitchens and
    >>bathrooms virtually germ-free. One cleaner promises destruction of 99.9% of bacteria in your
    >>bathroom. The kitchen and bathroom cleaners were quickly followed by antibacterial hand soaps
    >>and lotions, dishwashing liquids, body washes, window cleaners, and just about all other types
    >>of cleaner used in the home. Today, in addition to all of the antibacterial cleaning products on
    >>the market, some companies have begun to impregnate the plastic used to make cutting boards,
    >>toothbrushes, and children¹s toys with an antibacterial agent. With the multitude of
    >>antibacterial cleaning products on the market, and an estimated one-half of all soap in the
    >>United States containing antibacterial ingredients, it¹s not hard to imagine a virtually sterile
    >>environment in which to live and raise our families. But is living in a sterile home really
    >>what¹s best for us? Fifty years ago, penicillin was the world¹s newest wonder drug, an
    >>antibiotic used to treat Streptococcus infections. Among other illnesses, Streptococcus is the
    >>bacterium that causes strep throat. Penicillin worked great at wiping out these infections,
    >>until the Streptococcus bacteria mutated and became resistant to treatment by penicillin. New
    >>and stronger antibiotics were developed, and those too, worked to treat strep infections until,
    >>once again, the bacteria became resistant. Streptococcus is just one example of many bacteria
    >>resistant to some antibiotics. In June of 2000, the World Health Organization warned that
    >>antibacterial products directly contribute to the rise in antibiotic-resistant bacteria. The
    >>American Medical Association (AMA) says ³(bacterial) resistance ascribed to overuse of
    >>antibiotics is a growing problem, and there is concern that some types of infections will
    >>eventually not be treatable with antibiotics². On June 13, 2000, the AMA advised consumers to
    >>avoid extensive use of ³antibacterial soaps, lotions, and other household products². The AMA has
    >>also urged the Food and Drug Administration to increase regulation of antibacterial products.
    >>So, on one side, we have the advertisements for antibacterial cleaners telling us that killing
    >>99.9% of germs in our homes is a good thing. On the other side, we have the World Health
    >>Organization and the American Medical Association telling us that use of antibacterial products
    >>might NOT be such a good thing. For the millions of Americans who just want a clean home,
    >>whether to use, or not use, antibacterial cleaners can be a confusing decision to make.
    >>According to most experts, the following guidelines are your best bet for keeping your home
    >>clean and your family safe, while avoiding the risks associated with antibacterial cleaners:
    >>*Wash your hands thoroughly, and often. *Limit your use of antibacterial products. *Use bleach
    >>to clean your bathroom. *Plain old soap and hot water remain the best ingredients to wash your
    >>hands, body, and dishes. *Use separate cutting boards for raw meat and foods such as fruits and
    >>vegetables that may not be cooked before eating. *Wash all fruits and vegetables, either in
    >>soapy water (rinse THOROUGHLY), or in one of the new fruit and vegetable washes. *Wash all
    >>kitchen surfaces, dishes, and utensils in hot, soapy water. Make sure you rinse thoroughly. If
    >>possible, put everything (including cutting boards) in the dishwasher. *Every time you run your
    >>dishwasher, throw your kitchen sponge in. *Don¹t wipe your counters with a sponge that¹s been
    >>sitting on your sink. This can deposit even more bacteria on your countertops. Damp sponges are
    >>an excellent breeding ground for bacteria. Use paper towels, or replace your dishrag every day
    >>with a clean one. New parents and parents-to-be worry about bacteria and viruses making their
    >>little one(s) sick. While this is certainly a concern, especially when there is a newborn in the
    >>home, it¹s important to remember that a sterile environment is NOT in the baby¹s best interest.
    >>Why? Bacteria and viruses are present in our homes, at our work, anywhere and everywhere we go.
    >>What prevents us from getting sick from these bacteria and viruses? Antibodies. Our bodies make
    >>antibodies in response to exposure to bacteria and viruses. Chickenpox is an excellent example.
    >>Chickenpox is a common childhood illness. When we contract the virus that causes chickenpox, our
    >>bodies make antibodies to fight the illness. Those antibodies stick with us (antibodies for some
    >>viruses and bacteria, such as chickenpox, last for a lifetime), and prevent us from getting sick
    >>again from the same virus. However, there are viruses out there (like the virus that causes the
    >>common cold) that change their genetic composition on a regular basis. This means that the
    >>antibodies we made for last month¹s cold may not necessarily work on this month¹s cold! If there
    >>were no exposure to bacteria and viruses, how would we make antibodies? Babies who are exposed
    >>to bacteria and viruses at an early age make antibodies more quickly than those babies who are
    >>kept in virtually sterile environments do. Some illnesses (such as chickenpox), while relatively
    >>minor in children, can be very serious in adults. Those children that are exposed to the
    >>chickenpox virus at an early age are less likely to have complications from the illness than
    >>those exposed later in life. While your instinct may be to scrub your house from top to bottom
    >>with every antibacterial product you can find in order to make your home as germ-free as
    >>possible, remember that germs are crucial for development of baby¹s immune system. Are germs
    >>bad? Some bacteria and viruses cause illness in humans, and some maintain bacterial harmony in
    >>our bodies. Some bacteria and viruses are neutral to humans, causing neither illness nor
    >>benefit. Are antibacterial cleaners bad? Not necessarily. When used in moderation, antibacterial
    >>cleaners can help you keep your home clean. Limit your use of antibacterial products to one or
    >>two products. For instance, use an antibacterial spray for your doorknobs, and a bottle of
    >>antibacterial hand cleaner for outings. Clean the rest of your house with bleach and/or regular
    >>cleaners. Use caution when exposing yourself and your children to unknown environments, but
    >>don¹t limit outings due to fear of infection and illness. Don¹t try to create a sterile
    >>environment for yourself and your family. In addition to the potential for antibiotic-resistant
    >>bacteria, it¹s a virtually impossible task, and you may just be lulled into a false sense of
    >>security. That one square inch on your kitchen counter you missed with your bottle of
    >>antibacterial kitchen spray could contain literally millions of bacteria! Instead of spending
    >>the entire day trying to annihilate every last germ, take your kids to the zoo, or go for a
    >>walk. Get yourself an ice cream cone with the money you would have spent on every antibacterial
    >>product you saw in the cleaning aisle at your grocery store. Keep your house clean, but above
    >>all else, have fun and enjoy life! Written by Kathleen Newton
    >
    >
    >

    First of all, you were talking infections. Specifically the topic started with the kitchen
    cleanliness. Now it has ramificated into allergen exposure et cetera.

    Anyway, notice that these studies say that extreme cleanliness COULD, and that's the keyword here;
    COULD be a factor. Meaning, it's now known for sure, to even use the words High Correlation.

    Of course you need to expose yourselves to bugs and other antigens, else, your immune system
    wouldn't develop and memory or specialized cells to directly attack, or produce antibodies; that's
    the whole basis behind a vaccine.

    I do consider the NEJM to be a respectable source of their large double blinded randomized studies,
    but I take with a grain of salt, all the other smaller ones, which again, are full of bias. The NEJM
    accepts articles from international sources, and I've at times questioned their bias.

    That knee jerk repsonse of people that have a little knowledge about something can be very
    deceiving to others. Example; NEJM study says, children need germs, to prevent asthma and
    allergies; interpretation by someone that knows how to interpret a study; there may be an
    association , but it's not well supported, only a conejecture. Interpretation by a layperson,
    expose yourself to plenty of germs, because it prevents asthma, allergies, et cetera. Or in your
    case: Ain't that the truth!
    >>>>Why are there so many more incidences of severe infections and
    allergies now
    >>>>than 40 years ago? Because people are disinfecting everything in
    sight, to
    >>>>the point that when they are exposed to something, their immune
    system looks
    >>>>at it and says "Whoa, a germ? What am I supposed to do with THAT?? I've never seen one before."
    >>>>

    Please try to stay in focus of the polemic.

    Rich
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.
     
Loading...