Your sports history & cycling success

[DancenMacabre]

Dave - hmm, the closest I have wanted to get to El Capitan is that great picnic spot in the meadow below. Nice to look up the wall & see the climbers though!!! My dream climb was an alpine style ascent of the Cassin ridge on Denali but it never happened. Did other climbs instead including some nearby during mountaineering school and it was all lots of fun & probably way safer. Others I often wished I could do were Ama Dablam & AnnaPurna - totally out of my league (and budget though) Would love to try skiing down some of those great volcanoes you mentioned but it is above my skill level.

Lim - sorry for the confusion. What you say though is so interesting that maybe the biggest diff. btwn the top riders and the support riders is mostly in their mental/emotional makeup, not pure physical ability. I think we tend to assume that the team leaders are also the fittest most talented ones. Maybe they are just the most mentally fit-strong ones

Tony - skipped class, you too huh? Figured we had something in common Thats one hella impressive sports history! Any one of those (40 time, vertical, playing NFL, broad jump champ, etc) accomplishments would be better than the highlight on most people's sports resumes - but you've done them all! Your sports resume is already covered with 'fast-twitch' type sports & events, so Kudos for taking up a new challenge with enduro races.

 

[swampy1970]

Maybe true but back in the day there was no chance of getting beat up if you said you wanted to play baseball

Well, I grew up in England, so if you said you wanted to play baseball people would wonder 'what the heck is that?'

 

[wiredued]

Well, I grew up in England, so if you said you wanted to play baseball people would wonder 'what the heck is that?'

That's alright the more I look back on those days the more it looks like the dark ages for sports. I think we were a bunch of heathens I do recall playing soccer in Gym class occassionally and if there was an exchange student he would have the ball most of the class because he would be playing at another level. It was a sad blackout for boys soccer that lasted about 8 years.

 

[Bailsibub]

4.38 40yard dash

Various successes on the road (many top-5 finishes in flat crits), but I believe my calling should be on the track.

Yeah, I'll say....

 

[tonyzackery]

The track is fun, but the road is just more enjoyable. The track is almost sterile - around in circles, same venue, no wind, no clouds, no sunshine, same gear the whole race, etc...Also, those pesky left hand turns can sometimes interrupt a beautiful sprint finish, witness my broken hand/concussion from last year...

 

[DancenMacabre]

The track is fun, but the road is just more enjoyable. The track is almost sterile - around in circles, same venue, no wind, no clouds, no sunshine, same gear the whole race, etc...Also, those pesky left hand turns can sometimes interrupt a beautiful sprint finish, witness my broken hand/concussion from last year...

going out on a limb - you are on an indoor track right??? my track time has all been on an outdoor one & it is fun stuff. sprinting on curves still feels sketch though so i hear you on the danger angle - especially if your track has high banking.

 

[tonyzackery]

going out on a limb - you are on an indoor track right??? my track time has all been on an outdoor one & it is fun stuff. sprinting on curves still feels sketch though so i hear you on the danger angle - especially if your track has high banking.

yeah, indoors - Burnaby Velodrome. It's a tremendous facility - not world class, but "who looks a gift horse in the mouth"? There are only a handful of indoor velodromes in all of N. America and I happen to have one 30mins away. Guess I'm taking it for granted and should appreciate it more...the track is fun stuff, no doubt...

 

[Alex Simmons]

going out on a limb - you are on an indoor track right??? my track time has all been on an outdoor one & it is fun stuff. sprinting on curves still feels sketch though so i hear you on the danger angle - especially if your track has high banking.

Actually it's often safer on banked tracks than flatter ones. The banking is your friend.

 

[11ring]

Actually it's often safer on banked tracks than flatter ones. The banking is your friend.

Yep, sprinting around corners with no bank is sketchy.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Charles Couturier, swimming / triathlon coach.

I got back to competitive swimming this year aiming at podiums in my age group at next provincials championship. In preparation for this, I intend to start swimming with power using Skiba's Swim Score. I am at the beginning of it, but at least I already know that I'm generating ~60w at threshold speed

Here. Me winning a little kiddish bet over some brit triathletes (and experimenting some delightful acidosis on the last 25m)...
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui9jRlLmj1s[/ame]

Best tested cycling FTP score so far has been ~3.90 w/kg (I know I know, so close but yet.... so far)

 

[reddDesign]

Many times this comes up when I talk to peeps from a new team or other bike riders. So I am a little curious.

What's everybody's sports background/history other than cycling??
What sports did you play?
What was your best sport?
What level did you play at?

For fun also:
what's your FTP (w/kg)?
what level do you bike race at (or used to race at if in the past?)

I know some lack TonyZ have been pro's in there sport & others like me, not even close! Nothing scientific here, just curious what kind of athlete some of y'all are.

Used to play softball/baseball for town and school...also skied since I was 6 years old, but haven't for 5 years now...I picked up cycling about 10 years ago and never looked back. Never liked to run...bad knees and all, but might start skiing again once I get back on the bike.

 

[alienator]

What kind of athlete? Is that something that can be defined, here, by a few words? Is the sum of a cyclist just the stats on a power meter or in a training spreadsheet? Sports are a matter of interpretation. Some think American football, baseball, and basketball are sports. Hemmingway wouldn't have thought so. He'd have called them athletic games. Personally, I think to be a sport, there has to more at stake than just points on a scoreboard. I think there has to be more at stake, things that are a lot more valuable at risk of being lost, like maybe life.

I think Reinhold Messner was a great athlete, as was Alex Lowe. Lynn Hill, she's an athlete extraordinaire. Troy Bayliss is an athlete. Another great would be Valentino Rossi. There should be some margin of fear that accompanies pushing yourself physically.

I played athletic sports up to my second year of high school. I then got bored and moved to cycling and climbing (mostly winter), and skydiving. Later motorcycle roadracing came into play. I accomplished some goals, and others I didn't. I'm always striving for more with my cycling.

 

[taniwha]

I'd add Matt Hoffman as an athlete to admire.

Me, sports that I've done competitively:-
Rugby (as a schoolboy) can't stand the game now
Sailing - Laser, Phase Two and Sunburst classes
Horse Riding - Dressage, ODE, Show Jumping, Hunting, you know the one, hounds, Huntsmen in Pink, jumping hedges, lots and lots of falls(one should always have a good bloodsport somewhere in their lists)
Basketball (Schoolboy also)
Am trying Land Based Gamefishing, but that is proving to be the biggest challenge yet, just from the sheer technical nature of it, and the amount of skill required. But I defy anyone not to have trembling knees and weak arms when the rod gets bend over and the reel starts screaming as something bit and powerful takes hold. Best yet 24kg Kingfish.

Then there's cycling. Raced and raced and raced with pretty mixed results.

FTP at the mo is 4.8, but has been as high as 5.3

 

[DancenMacabre]

Charles Couturier, swimming / triathlon coach.

I got back to competitive swimming this year aiming at podiums in my age group at next provincials championship. In preparation for this, I intend to start swimming with power using Skiba's Swim Score. I am at the beginning of it, but at least I already know that I'm generating ~60w at threshold speed

Here. Me winning a little kiddish bet over some brit triathletes (and experimenting some delightful acidosis on the last 25m)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui9jRlLmj1s

Best tested cycling FTP score so far has been ~3.90 w/kg (I know I know, so close but yet.... so far)

whatever you are doing - i wont ask what or when - it is working! i mean how many of the men on this forum would post a youtube vid of themselves in speedos (and would not look horrid or have been forced to do so by threats of violence?)

butterfly stroke, it sure looks easy when you do it. when i try to butterly it looks like i'm flailing around wildly to swim away from a hungry white whale.
how does the swim score work? like TSS based on some threshold setting & if?
is this on golden cheetah or a diff. program?

curious about something - i have a friend who was strong at swim sprints (< 200m). this made me think she is fast twitch or more fast twitch. she doesnt do swimming anymore & now does running for distance.

question is this - can you be more fast twitch in one sport (swimming) but slower twitch in another (cycling)? some same muscles at work but some diff. ones too.

another way of asking: is muscle fiber type % consistent (in general) across the body? meaning will your thighs & arms be similar percentages? I know some muscles like the soleus usually are very slow twitch makeup.

3.9 is hella good. wish i was at that number

ALIENATOR - rossi is prolly cementing his place as the all time great. lotsa the GP riders do plenty of bike riding for fitness. kind of a nice crossover. Messner is/was on a whole other planet, like the Rossi of alpine mountaineering. sure he self promotes some but he did those climbs like nobody else did alpine style on everest & others.

 

[otb4evr]

What sports did you play?

I played football, wrestled and threw shot put and discus in HS. I was 3rd in the state of OK in discus my Sr. year. During college, I threw all 4 implements (shot put, discus, hammer, javelin). I qualified for collegiate nationals in the shot put and the hammer and placed 8th in the hammer. I held the school record for the indoor and outdoor shot put for 20 years, before it was finally broken 2 years ago.

what's your FTP (w/kg)?

Peak season, it is around 3.9 w/kg. Right now, it is around 3.5 w/kg.

what level do you bike race at?

I am a cat 3, but do mostly 40+.

Jim

 

[SolarEnergy]

In past years I've managed to get my FTP >300 watts most years, but I'm kind of heavy at around 80kgs so that's nothing to write home about.

So worst case then if I can't make it to the 300 club, all I need to do is to eat and eat until I put on 25 pounds and I should be fine

Obviously, w/kg makes the greatest difference in speed (and, therefore, performance), somewhat on the flat (frontal area) and absolutely on upgrades (weight). But, I think that absolute watts is more relevant for physiological potential. Let's say there are two untrained adult male cyclists, one weighs 75kg and the other weighs 100kg. I don't assume that the cyclist who weighs 33% more has 33% more potential in FTP, VO2max, AWC or NM. Actually, knowing nothing else about them, I would assume their potential in absolute watts is similar.

I don't want to sound too serious in this causy thread (well, it's too late I guess). While I don't agree entirely with RD's take on importance that should be given to absolute over relative (though I buy it to a certain extent), >300 is still an achievement. Congratulations.

I managed 3.9something per kilo at best, and I'm pretty sure you could almost lap me on a 40k as long as it's somehow flat, (and even on a rolling course).

But beware, I take you on a 200 butterfly anytime and I'll get you to spit your left lung.

 

[SolarEnergy]

(cheech, sorry for the dp, double post of course, I read replies in order and that one came after)

whatever you are doing - i wont ask what or when - it is working! i mean how many of the men on this forum would post a youtube vid of themselves in speedos (and would not look horrid or have been forced to do so by threats of violence?)

Well we swimmers have this inherent latent exhibitionism inside us. We have the voyeur thingy too. We got them all...

how does the swim score work?

I finally found out this afternoon http://www.physfarm.com/swimscore.pdf

I'm addicted to PMC now. Tapering for me is very weird. But somehow, the chart held the road quite nicely last year, despite logging cross training data, including swimming (no weights, don't worry) all fair guessed power input based on RPE.

curious about something - i have a friend who was strong at swim sprints (< 200m). this made me think she is fast twitch or more fast twitch. she doesnt do swimming anymore & now does running for distance.

Interesting question. Two things that are obvious, sprinters in the pool commit to events that last 1min05 (in case of your friend butterflyer). They live a lot on fast twitch type IIa. Gestures are so complex that some muscles probably live on type I as well. In the case of butterfly, if you kick with sensuality, type I will contribute in good part whilst sprinting. Then the most obvious cause, the training for swim sprinting is at the very least, 50% based on aerobic. Butterfly is the worst stroke of all. You really need to nail down a lot of volume to streamline for this stroke. It's a bizarre stroke that procures strange sensations. These sensations are turbulence occurring all around your body (Newton's third etc). You have to master these sensations to cut down on drag. Efficiency is a huge thing in swimming, and that trains mostly on aerobic volume (ideally done at threshold due to impact on type IIa among several other things). Takes at least a million meters swam per year to be a good 100m specialist, at 4kph.

And besides, distance training program are very boring. They attract special animals. You're wet 20hours per week just to make it to the nationals for 1500. And the sight, well, it's a bit blueish and fuzzy. That's all you see. Darn fuzzy blue day in day out 6:30am then 4:30pm (don't start me on distance training!)

 

[fergie]

Gestures are so complex that some muscles probably live on type I as well. In the case of butterfly, if you kick with sensuality, type I will contribute in good part whilst sprinting. Then the most obvious cause, the training for swim sprinting is at the very least, 50% based on aerobic. Butterfly is the worst stroke of all. You really need to nail down a lot of volume to streamline for this stroke. It's a bizarre stroke that procures strange sensations. These sensations are turbulence occurring all around your body (Newton's third etc). You have to master these sensations to cut down on drag. Efficiency is a huge thing in swimming, and that trains mostly on aerobic volume (ideally done at threshold due to impact on type IIa among several other things). Takes at least a million meters swam per year to be a good 100m specialist, at 4kph.

I could say the same things about a gate start on the track or BMX, knowing how far to lean into a corner, when to start pedalling again, how to jump from a roll on the banking, how to pass a rider in the tight bends of a 250m track at 65kph, a perfect Madison handsling. All these things need to be practised for hours just for the skill alone before one even factors in the physiology of doing it with maximal power while battling external resistance and the psychology of doing it in the heat of competition.

And you want to ruin these motor patterns with resistance training?

 

[SolarEnergy]

And you want to ruin these motor patterns with resistance training?

Swimming the butterfly in an environment that is 1000 times more dense than air at a high level is something incredibly complex. Not sure I want to go down the route of arguing with you about that.

Let's just say for now that minimally, every butterfly swimmer usually goes through an intensive abdominal/lower back dryland process. That internal rotators need to be constantly trained for achieving EVF (Early Vertical Forearm) during the early stage of the catch and that external rotators need to be trained as well to reposition the shoulders perfectly in their socket.

Pulling is so complex (made of scullings basically) that aside from improving arm adductors (those responsible from bringing the hands together underneath the body in an explosive manner) as well as triceps for the final explosive push, pulling is best improved in the pool. Leg extention can also be tried for increasing peak power during the dolphin kick, as well as leg curl to avoid leg imblance.

That's the core. On top of that of course, every swimmer has his own challenges. Phelps for instance, who is a butterfly specialist seems to appreciate the following dryland routine:

Few years earlier, Michael’s coach, Bob Bowman has hired a personal trainer to design a gym weight lifting workout program for him. However, because they found out that program focused more in building bulky type of body, the workouts became counter productive. What swimmer like Michael needs is buoyancy in water and not bulky body with huge muscle mass. They fired that trainer and got a new trainer which gave more swimmer-friendly workout.

In order to slice through water with those deadly powerful strokes, one must be strong in multiple planes of motion. True enough, according to what his coach has disclosed, Michael Phelps does “diagonal wood chopper” and “straight wood chopper”.

Here are general guidelines how you can do diagonal woodchopper: (details found in the document)
How you can do “straight woodchoper”: (details found in the document)

Phelps does other typical strength trainings, 3 times a week with 1 hour each session, but those trainings focus in building his muscle endurance and flexibility in addition to improving his stroke power. With such a powerful and long stroke, when others have to take 12 strokes, he probably cover the same distance with only 8 strokes.

How Michael Phelps Managed To Break So Many Swimming World Records, One After Another? by MunFitnessBlog.com

Personally, the only dry land stuff I do is stretching and of course, cycling related training which I like to maintain. And I do believe that some aerobic improvements made during threshold and overload cross training transfer to swimming (cardiac stroke volume, increased glycogen availability, ability to deal/utilize/buffer lactate etc).

Now please, let this be the only mention about weights made in this thread. Several members are tired now of reading about this.

 

[fergie]

Now please, let this be the only mention about weights made in this thread. Several members are tired now of reading about this.

Yet I see several members found my posts in this thread helpful.

You didn't really answer my question. You just showed us what Phelps does. Unless every swimmer follows the same routine as him and uses the same training approach we are still left with a decision with our own athletes.

So I ask again. If swimming is such a technical sport why risk altering those motor patterns training different motor patterns and why spend time recovering from weight training that could be spent enhancing those motor skills that you claim are a fundamental to the sport?