Your thoughts on strength training for the legs



fergie said:
Again if only someone had worked out the potential gains of say the pursuit from improving the start vs improving anaerobic power vs aerobic power. That might give us an indication.

Someone has worked it out. Some sap by the name of Andrew R. Coggan, PhD. Good thing that this Coggan fellow has spent a little time on these things & shared it with us peanut gallery squibs dont y'all think??? :D:D:D:D




Looks like you save more not by FTP work but by CDA improvement & maybe even more by doing good pacing. Low hanging fruit I guess but worth picking right?!! ;););)

Like I said last post though, at least one coach here thinks standing starts are great for non-sprinters or trackies, meaning road racers - at least those doing crits. Plus how long does it take to do a decent standing start workout? 1 hour maybe???? You should do lotsa FTP work sure & I do that, but you cant do FTP work 100% of the time. How hard would it be to do 5-6 standing starts in the middle of a super easy L1 recovery ride? Gotta say it sounds hella doable to me! Now I am darn outta excuses for not doing std. starts.
1xslide1kwj
1xslide1kwj
 
DancenMacabre said:
Someone has worked it out. Some sap by the name of Andrew R. Coggan, PhD. Good thing that this Coggan fellow has spent a little time on these things & shared it with us peanut gallery squibs dont y'all think??? :D:D:D:D




Looks like you save more not by FTP work but by CDA improvement & maybe even more by doing good pacing. Low hanging fruit I guess but worth picking right?!! ;););)

Like I said last post though, at least one coach here thinks standing starts are great for non-sprinters or trackies, meaning road racers - at least those doing crits. Plus how long does it take to do a decent standing start workout? 1 hour maybe???? You should do lotsa FTP work sure & I do that, but you cant do FTP work 100% of the time. How hard would it be to do 5-6 standing starts in the middle of a super easy L1 recovery ride? Gotta say it sounds hella doable to me! Now I am darn outta excuses for not doing std. starts.
1xslide1kwj
1xslide1kwj

For my track riders we always do standing starts in every session. 10mins tops. 3-5 50min efforts. Just the same as sprints every week. Again 3-6 efforts.

I flicked on the live streaming to World Masters to see Alex do his Kilo and he mistimed his start so I guess he does need to do some more practice.

But even in a 4000m pursuit it seems pretty clear where coaches should focus their efforts (thanks Andy) and for a events longer than 5min this proportion will drop further so.

We have Christchurch's feature Criterium today and there have been weekly Thursday night crits so riders have had some preparation for it. If they are from out of town or can't get along on Thursday nights I would suggest micro intervals like 15sec on 15sec off or 6sec on 24sec off for 30-60mins pref done in a group on a tight circuit. Bit like points race riders who do 5 laps behind the bike, come out and sprint, duck back in and repeat for 25km on the track.
 
Just pulled up an SRM file from a ex World Champion riding a criterium 45min + 3 laps criterium. He has a max power of 1800 watts, is capable of riding 10.55 for 200m and 1:02.9 for 1000m but in this crit his max power was 1415 and an normalised power of 321 watts. So to win the event he didn't even tap into his neuromuscular power at all. His peak 5sec power is 1451watts and in this event peak 5sec was 1022. So if he is wanting to improve as a crit rider where is he better focusing his energy?
 
fergie said:
Just pulled up an SRM file from a ex World Champion riding a criterium 45min + 3 laps criterium. He has a max power of 1800 watts, is capable of riding 10.55 for 200m and 1:02.9 for 1000m but in this crit his max power was 1415 and an normalised power of 321 watts. So to win the event he didn't even tap into his neuromuscular power at all. His peak 5sec power is 1451watts and in this event peak 5sec was 1022. So if he is wanting to improve as a crit rider where is he better focusing his energy?

Agree. The rider is not using those max watts so let me give you my address so you can send me those 350 watts of max power he is not using. Then I could go to the track & crush everyone in a 500m TT or 200!!! :D:D

From what I see on your blog fergie you are a pretty big time coach. You arent just telling peeps to do power stomps 2x/week and buy CTS tapes! That ex-champion might be offended if he knew you were getting the advice of a neophyte power trainer/cyclist. :p

Ok ok. Being serious. You are not giving us all the information. Sure the rider won the crit, but what was the level of the competition? Was this one of those A races or a B race against a bunch of squibs? How did he win? Was he on a solo breakaway? Sitting comfortably in the bunch saving energy then sprinting easily? Plus what are his strengths/weaknesses in the power profile?

Without all that info only general advice can be given. So I'd say he should do the training that produces adaptations that successful crit riders need:

Hella aerobic fitness (FTP - most important physio attribute for crits by far)
NM repeatability
Great bike skills (ex champ prolly already has'em)
Good tactics (gotta be smart!)
Maybe some anaerobic work. But only if he struggles to stay with the group in the last laps. Maybe none needed at all.
Some small amt of time doing sprints (speed & std. starts)

I say some sprints & standing starts too because from what I know of the body, if you neglect something then you dont do it as well.

No surprise he couldnt hit 1800 watts. CP/ATP system + fast twitch fibers are going to fatigue even after 45 minutes of hard riding. Wanna hit max watts? You probably need to be fresh or rested or at least, not hella tired from hard riding. But I know this, if you cant hit 1400watts well rested, then you darn sure arent gonna do it when tired. Total speculation here but for me (lab test = 1!!!), even a high CTL ramp & big negative TSB = rubbish sprinting, no matter if I sprint first thing in a workout or later.

Anyway I responded b'cause not cuz I think I know the formula. Nope. Instead I figure I oughta put my ideas out there & get constructive criticism/feedback so I can learn. Now you tell us the right answer coach Fergie, what should the ex-champ do?
 
fergie said:
Just pulled up an SRM file from a ex World Champion riding a criterium 45min + 3 laps criterium. He has a max power of 1800 watts, is capable of riding 10.55 for 200m and 1:02.9 for 1000m but in this crit his max power was 1415 and an normalised power of 321 watts. So to win the event he didn't even tap into his neuromuscular power at all. His peak 5sec power is 1451watts and in this event peak 5sec was 1022. So if he is wanting to improve as a crit rider where is he better focusing his energy?

Interesting you pulled that out because it's very similar to my experiences in crits where my best 5sec power in a race is 1389w and best race max is 1450. I know I can't mid 10s in the 200 though - probably low 11 at best as I think I have the aerodynamics of a 74" x 24" brick...Knowing this info, my sole winter training plan has been L4/L1 with no L7 work at all...ymmv...
 
fergie said:
I flicked on the live streaming to World Masters to see Alex do his Kilo and he mistimed his start so I guess he does need to do some more practice.
My original comment on doing standing starts was simply as one way to gain a great neuromuscular workout. It had nothing to do with the technique required to get out of a starting gate at a track. That is a skill/craft issue as much as a NM issue.

I also suggest many other ways to gain a good NMP workout for riders looking to improve their crit riding and for whom their NMP is a limiter. Short duration sprints from a slow speed (standing or seated) are good for roadies as they are generally safer to perform on roads, especially for city bound riders, than full speed sprints or sprints with other riders.

As previously said, these can be done in a way that doesn't interfere with the main objective of improving aerobic fitness/FTP. They are intended as a NM workout, not as a way to improve start or sprint craft.

As to my own start, that's a bit low and irrelevant in the context of this thread.

I've already explained that I was not focused on the track TT, it was simply an opener event for me. If I choose to focus on TT, you can be sure I'll do some track starting gate work and a lot of it. That is looking highly unlikely though, since to make the Aussie squad, I'll need to ride the kilo in a 1:05 dead. Maybe less by 2011.
 
DancenMacabre said:
From what I see on your blog fergie you are a pretty big time coach. You arent just telling peeps to do power stomps 2x/week and buy CTS tapes! That ex-champion might be offended if he knew you were getting the advice of a neophyte power trainer/cyclist. :p

I don't coach him. My riders do do stomps and sprints as even legend NZ running coach Arthur Lydiard had his charges do regular sprint training even if they were Marathon runners. Just a matter of priority.

DancenMacabre said:
Ok ok. Being serious. You are not giving us all the information. Sure the rider won the crit, but what was the level of the competition? Was this one of those A races or a B race against a bunch of squibs? How did he win? Was he on a solo breakaway? Sitting comfortably in the bunch saving energy then sprinting easily? Plus what are his strengths/weaknesses in the power profile?

Some pretty good riders. NZ have medalled in Teams Pursuit at Olympics and Worlds over last two years so some pretty good depth and that crit is a big money event.
DancenMacabre said:
Hella aerobic fitness (FTP - most important physio attribute for crits by far)
NM repeatability
Great bike skills (ex champ prolly already has'em)
Good tactics (gotta be smart!)
Maybe some anaerobic work. But only if he struggles to stay with the group in the last laps. Maybe none needed at all.
Some small amt of time doing sprints (speed & std. starts)

Ha ha sounds like you won't be needing a coach any time soon:D

DancenMacabre said:
I say some sprints & standing starts too because from what I know of the body, if you neglect something then you dont do it as well.

Agreed.

DancenMacabre said:
No surprise he couldnt hit 1800 watts. CP/ATP system + fast twitch fibers are going to fatigue even after 45 minutes of hard riding. Wanna hit max watts? You probably need to be fresh or rested or at least, not hella tired from hard riding. But I know this, if you cant hit 1400watts well rested, then you darn sure arent gonna do it when tired. Total speculation here but for me (lab test = 1!!!), even a high CTL ramp & big negative TSB = rubbish sprinting, no matter if I sprint first thing in a workout or later.

Def won't be needing a coach to work out your training at least:D:D

DancenMacabre said:
Anyway I responded b'cause not cuz I think I know the formula. Nope. Instead I figure I oughta put my ideas out there & get constructive criticism/feedback so I can learn. Now you tell us the right answer coach Fergie, what should the ex-champ do?

That's how I got started. I took my ideas to some local exercise physiologists and went in with riders to lab tests and grilled them on why they did or suggested certain things. Now thanks to the Interweb I have guys of the quality of Andy Coggan to set me straight when I get some funny ideas on training and power:)
 
Alex Simmons said:
As to my own start, that's a bit low and irrelevant in the context of this thread.

Harden up Alex.

Alex Simmons said:
I've already explained that I was not focused on the track TT, it was simply an opener event for me. If I choose to focus on TT, you can be sure I'll do some track starting gate work and a lot of it. That is looking highly unlikely though, since to make the Aussie squad, I'll need to ride the kilo in a 1:05 dead. Maybe less by 2011.

You have to equal the World Record to make the squad.:eek:
 
fergie said:
Again if only someone had worked out the potential gains of say the pursuit from improving the start vs improving anaerobic power vs aerobic power. That might give us an indication.

If only I was asking whether or not standing start improvements will make a rider faster, your comment would be relevant to the conversation at hand.
 
Very relevant, I'm trying to get riders to go faster. What are you on about?

I was working with a very handy sprint cyclist and everyone was super keen to find out what his lifts were. On being told what they were lifting my response was always "not as much as you".
 
The question in my mind for the a while has been "will lifting make my standing start faster" which eventually got me started asking how hard a cyclist would have to push to accelerate as fast as theoretically possible. Not that I'll ever get there, I just got curious if anyone has ever done an analysis of the sprint to see how fast it's possible to accelerate, and how hard you'd have to push to achieve that acceleration.

I admit, I am curious what your handy sprinter was lifting. Squats? Deadlifts? Cleans? How heavy was he going? Did you ever test his 1RM? Was it mainly 5 rep, 10 rep, or 20+ rep work?
 
Enriss said:
The question in my mind for the a while has been "will lifting make my standing start faster" which eventually got me started asking how hard a cyclist would have to push to accelerate as fast as theoretically possible. Not that I'll ever get there, I just got curious if anyone has ever done an analysis of the sprint to see how fast it's possible to accelerate, and how hard you'd have to push to achieve that acceleration.

I admit, I am curious what your handy sprinter was lifting. Squats? Deadlifts? Cleans? How heavy was he going? Did you ever test his 1RM? Was it mainly 5 rep, 10 rep, or 20+ rep work?

Will a better start make you a better 500m and 1000m TT riders, yes and no. No good if a Team Sprint rider 1 leaves the team behind. I did a lot of 50m standing starts with my guys one year and they got really good at 50m standing starts. Could belt out a good lap 1 of the Kilo or 500m but died on the final lap. Specificity.

The rider was 50+. All he did was squats. Low reps, fast tempo. Guy had excellent power delivery at high cadence. You can only train that on the bike! Specificity.

Think I mentioned the Aussie Sprinters that trained peak speed, peak strength and peak power and came up short in the racing because even sprinting is about ave power for 15-61sec and having crazy high 0.1-6sec power didn't provide any tangible advantage on race day. Specificity.
 
Thanks for the answer on the handy sprinter's training. Have you ever tried metabolic conditioning in the gym? I'm guessing you don't think it's specific enough, but I figured I'd ask anyway. In my mind, you can target the same muscle groups and use the same energy systems, so it's hard to imagine improvements in one not carrying over to the other, but you're the guy with experience here :)
 
fergie said:
Harden up Alex.
Chop your leg off Hamish and let's see how hard you are. ;)

fergie said:
You have to equal the World Record to make the squad.:eek:
Only 11 Aussie paracycling spots are available across all categories. WR holders are automatic inclusions in the Aussie squad. e.g. if there are 5 of them, irrespective of category, they then leave 6 spots for everyone else.

Next to be considered are those within 2.5% of WR time. So to be considered but no guarantee I'd have to do 1:06.5 kilo. And WR may yet be lowered.

Like it was for pursuit a few weeks ago (WR now 4:40), which means I'd need to go under 4:47 at present to be in consideration but again no guarantee.
 
Thanks for the feedback Hamish!!! :D Glad to be on the right track b'cause I cannot afford a coach. So I best be learning all I can from you smart guys ;)

fergie said:
Think I mentioned the Aussie Sprinters that trained peak speed, peak strength and peak power and came up short in the racing because even sprinting is about ave power for 15-61sec and having crazy high 0.1-6sec power didn't provide any tangible advantage on race day. Specificity.

Not sure if this is the right stuff. Anyway, I found some material online from a supposed Aussie sprint coach. Could be totally fake so remember, I'm the messenger not the source!! He talked about their program & training. Tons of weight training, lots of one-legged leg presses, eating cake etc.

Is this what you are talking about Hamish? You say the riders on the program did bad. Why was that? Did they get the balance wrong? Like we were saying in the crit discussion, you spend time on whats most important. Maybe they spent too much time in the gym & not enough on the bike?

What I know of physics, hella little but enough to speculate, is that peak power gets you up to speed fast. For a longer event like a pursuit, it prolly doesnt matter much. For something real short like a 500 or 200 then I have to think peak power matters a lot b'cause you get up to speed quicker than the bike decelerates. Enough that higher peak pwr gets a faster time than lower peak power even if average power is the same. Like I said, not true for longer events but for < 1 minute, I bet peak pwr/watts play a big part.

I know, I know, hypothetical but gotta think a rider with max pwr = 1100 & 5 sec power = 1000w & 40 sec avg power = 600w is gonna be faster in a 500 meter TT than a rider with max pwr = 950 & 5 sec power = 850 & 40 sec avg power = 600w. Assuming same CDA, rolling resistance, yadda yadda.

Thats my speculation for the day :)
 
Enriss said:
Thanks for the answer on the handy sprinter's training. Have you ever tried metabolic conditioning in the gym? I'm guessing you don't think it's specific enough, but I figured I'd ask anyway. In my mind, you can target the same muscle groups and use the same energy systems, so it's hard to imagine improvements in one not carrying over to the other, but you're the guy with experience here :)

I have been quoted in saying that if tiddlywinks gets you in the best condition then do it. But in terms of getting into specific fitness I haven't yet seen a study showing cross training improving performance.
 
fergie said:
I have been quoted in saying that if tiddlywinks gets you in the best condition then do it. But in terms of getting into specific fitness I haven't yet seen a study showing cross training improving performance.
I'll assume it's implied that you've never seen a study showing that cross training improves cycling performance.
Do you know of any studies that show cross training decreases performance?
 
Enriss said:
I'll assume it's implied that you've never seen a study showing that cross training improves cycling performance.
Do you know of any studies that show cross training decreases performance?

Check out a few of these. Some odd 'intereference effect' is mentioned often when they study strength + enduro training at the same time.

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The Interference Effects of Training for Strength and Endurance Simultaneously

Hennessy, Liam C.; Watson, Anthony W.S.





Abstract



This study compared the effects of three preseason training programs on endurance, strength, power, and speed. Subjects were divided into four groups: the endurance (E) group completed a running endurance program 4 days [middle dot] week-1; the strength (S) group trained 3 days [middle dot] week-1; the S+E group combined S and E training programs 5 days [middle dot] week-1; the control (C) group did not train. After 8 weeks, the E and S+E groups had similar gains in endurance running performance, the S group had no change, while the C group showed a decline. No strength gains were noted in the C or E groups, but strength gains were made in the S+E and S groups. Power (vertical jump performance) and speed (20-m sprint time) gains were noted only for the S group. These findings show that training for strength alone results in gains in strength, power, and speed while maintaining endurance. S+E training, while producing gains in endurance and upper body strength, compromises gains in lower body strength and does not improve power or speed.
(C) 1994 National Strength and Conditioning Association


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Eur J Appl Physiol. 2003 Mar;89(1):42-52. Epub 2002 Dec 14.
Neuromuscular adaptations during concurrent strength and endurance training versus strength training.

Häkkinen K, Alen M, Kraemer WJ, Gorostiaga E, Izquierdo M, Rusko H, Mikkola J, Häkkinen A, Valkeinen H, Kaarakainen E, Romu S, Erola V, Ahtiainen J, Paavolainen L.
Neuromuscular Research Center, University of Jyväskylä, P.O. Box 35, 40014, Jyväskylä, Finland. [email protected]
The purpose of this study was to investigate effects of concurrent strength and endurance training (SE) (2 plus 2 days a week) versus strength training only (S) (2 days a week) in men [SE: n=11; 38 (5) years, S: n=16; 37 (5) years] over a training period of 21 weeks. The resistance training program addressed both maximal and explosive strength components. EMG, maximal isometric force, 1 RM strength, and rate of force development (RFD) of the leg extensors, muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) of the quadriceps femoris (QF) throughout the lengths of 4/15-12/15 (L(f)) of the femur, muscle fibre proportion and areas of types I, IIa, and IIb of the vastus lateralis (VL), and maximal oxygen uptake (VO(2max)) were evaluated. No changes occurred in strength during the 1-week control period, while after the 21-week training period increases of 21% (p<0.001) and 22% (p<0.001), and of 22% (p<0.001) and 21% (p<0.001) took place in the 1RM load and maximal isometric force in S and SE, respectively. Increases of 26% (p<0.05) and 29% (p<0.001) occurred in the maximum iEMG of the VL in S and SE, respectively. The CSA of the QF increased throughout the length of the QF (from 4/15 to 12/15 L(f)) both in S (p<0.05-0.001) and SE (p<0.01-0.001). The mean fibre areas of types I, IIa and IIb increased after the training both in S (p<0.05 and 0.01) and SE (p<0.05 and p<0.01). S showed an increase in RFD (p<0.01), while no change occurred in SE. The average iEMG of the VL during the first 500 ms of the rapid isometric action increased (p<0.05-0.001) only in S. VO(2max) increased by 18.5% (p<0.001) in SE. The present data do not support the concept of the universal nature of the interference effect in strength development and muscle hypertrophy when strength training is performed concurrently with endurance training, and the training volume is diluted by a longer period of time with a low frequency of training. However, the present results suggest that even the low-frequency concurrent strength and endurance training leads to interference in explosive strength development mediated in part by the limitations of rapid voluntary neural activation of the trained muscles.


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Lots more if you have access to the pub med website. I can only see the summaries.
 
Oh, yeah, I heard similar things when I played football in high school.
Perhaps this request is too specific, but is there evidence that weight training adversely affects sprinting performance?
 
Enriss said:
specific, but is there evidence that weight training adversely affects sprinting performance?

IOW - the $64k question you mean????

Wish I knew. Seems some coaches have the trackies do it - so does the weight training help the trackies do well? Do they do well despite the weight training?? Don't some pro TDF guys do weights - so is it helping them or hurt them? Thats like the do you train by science or habit/old-school question, right? Some amt. of strength has gotta be a minimum to sprint well I think. More than that amt. of strength then perhaps you cannot use it on the bike.

These things we train by, FTP/TSS/CTL/yadda yadda, they are studied sure, but are they laws in a scientific sense like ohm's law? or more like theories (like quantum mechanics & relativity) that work most of the time, but not so good in some cases? If more like theories then maybe you need to try weights for yourself & tell us what you find when it comes to your sprints.

Maybe the coaches & sports docs can chime in here. I'd love to be a great sprinter but maybe the problem is all in the genes. Or it could be I need to just get in the weight room & do some explosive lifts, see what happens, and test it out on myself (sample size = 1).