Your thoughts on strength training for the legs

[Enriss]

IOW - the $64k question you mean????

Wish I knew. Seems some coaches have the trackies do it - so does the weight training help the trackies do well? Do they do well despite the weight training?? Don't some pro TDF guys do weights - so is it helping them or hurt them? Thats like the do you train by science or habit/old-school question, right? Some amt. of strength has gotta be a minimum to sprint well I think. More than that amt. of strength then perhaps you cannot use it on the bike.

On the question of train by science or habit/old-school remark, I've not gotten the impression that the science has shown that weightlifting is bad for bicycle sprints. Certainly Fergie has some strong opinions about specificity, but everything else I read and hear from coaches and pros in the cycling community is that cross training is a good thing. My own reading leaves me inclined to say that improvements in the ATP-PCr and fast glycolytic systems should carry over to the bike in every event up to and possibly including the 1k, since these systems are the major systems creating the power you'll use for most of the race even in a 1k.

 

[fergie]

On the question of train by science or habit/old-school remark, I've not gotten the impression that the science has shown that weightlifting is bad for bicycle sprints.

Most people are focussed on what makes athletes go faster.

Certainly Fergie has some strong opinions about specificity, but everything else I read and hear from coaches and pros in the cycling community is that cross training is a good thing.

You mustn't read widely and hear from coaches who work at the Elite level. Many of us use strength and conditioning training or exercises but it is a matter of prioritisation.

My own reading leaves me inclined to say that improvements in the ATP-PCr and fast glycolytic systems should carry over to the bike in every event up to and possibly including the 1k, since these systems are the major systems creating the power you'll use for most of the race even in a 1k.

It's been done by sprinters and they performed worse. Even sprinting is not limited by 1-5sec power as experienced coaches (those who understand the sport they are coaching) know that riders who may have the highest peak speed or power get rolled by the guys who have the better 15-61sec ave power.

Are you saying you can't train the ATP-PCr and Fast Glycolytic Systems on the bike? Because I have a stack of power data that would suggest you can.

 

[fergie]

Wish I knew. Seems some coaches have the trackies do it - so does the weight training help the trackies do well? Do they do well despite the weight training??

Do they do it because they have always done it and have poorly informed strength and conditioning coaches trying to justify their existence by advocating it.

Don't some pro TDF guys do weights - so is it helping them or hurt them?

It hurts them. Time that could be better spent riding hard aerobically or resting and there is the risk of hypertrophy when power to weight is a huge part of the sport.

Thats like the do you train by science or habit/old-school question, right? Some amt. of strength has gotta be a minimum to sprint well I think. More than that amt. of strength then perhaps you cannot use it on the bike.

How much strength do you need? I have more strength than Chris Boardman who alledgedly could not crack 1000watts (I'm on 1340watts) but while on the track I can hold 56kph for 35sec he can sustain that pace for 60min! Aerobic Power!!!

These things we train by, FTP/TSS/CTL/yadda yadda, they are studied sure, but are they laws in a scientific sense like ohm's law? or more like theories (like quantum mechanics & relativity) that work most of the time, but not so good in some cases? If more like theories then maybe you need to try weights for yourself & tell us what you find when it comes to your sprints.

That's the Frank Day mentality. My response is to read a Bicycling Magazine and add up the cost in time and money to try all these things and to also add up all the promised gains. If I had the "claimed" average 40% improvement in performance from independent cranks I would be a World Champion and Gimmickcrankers would dominate the World Scene.

Maybe the coaches & sports docs can chime in here. I'd love to be a great sprinter but maybe the problem is all in the genes. Or it could be I need to just get in the weight room & do some explosive lifts, see what happens, and test it out on myself (sample size = 1).

That's why I rely on the basic science that show that you tend to get better at what you practice. I don't have time and money to waste.

 

[DancenMacabre]

It hurts them. Time that could be better spent riding hard aerobically or resting and there is the risk of hypertrophy when power to weight is a huge part of the sport.

If you call them now there may still be time to stop the damage!!! Some big names I hear do weights. Maybe super talent outweighs a few bad training habits?

How much strength do you need? I have more strength than Chris Boardman who alledgedly could not crack 1000watts (I'm on 1340watts) but while on the track I can hold 56kph for 35sec he can sustain that pace for 60min! Aerobic Power!!!

ha ha, c'mon Fergie now you are having a go at me. I said strength only in the context of being a powerful sprinter. Not for the ultra slow-twitcher/enduro/aerobic cat himself, Boardman. He had as much need for a good sprint as Usain Bolt does for a fast marathon time: utterly useless for their target events. Then we are not talking 40k TT's or marathons, we are talking sprints, 500m, 1000m here.

That's the Frank Day mentality. My response is to read a Bicycling Magazine and add up the cost in time and money to try all these things and to also add up all the promised gains. If I had the "claimed" average 40% improvement in performance from independent cranks I would be a World Champion and Gimmickcrankers would dominate the World Scene.

What is the 'day mentality'? Are you saying short-sighted or short term? Proper scientific inquiry always requires further investigation & even looking at the most sacred of sacred cows with a critical eye. For 200+ years Newtons theories of gravity were hella useful for practical matters & low velocity problems. Should Einstein then have left the matter untouched, seeing as it had worked so well for so long? We should always look critically upon work for ways it may be improved upon.

The studies I find usually agree: weights + enduro cycling = compromised perf in both. What I have not found yet are the studies on explosive weight training + sprint cycling. If I were a grad student or researcher then prolly I'd have access to the databases. Since I aint neither, ha ha, then I can only find exec. summaries & abstracts.

A study of lifting slow/heavy + sprint cycling would be of marginal use. Lift slow/heavy makes you good at slow/heavy, even I know that. Lifting fast & in positions close to what you use for bike sprinting - that'd be the good comparison.

I dunno the ex-physiology behind it but fast twitch perf. seems to me to have a few key parts:

1 - how long does it take you to turn on your max # of muscles fibers? 0.7 seconds sounds fast except when the person sprinting next to you can apply max force in 0.1 seconds. Then you prolly will be toast. Guessing this is a CNS function.

2 - once you do have the max # of muscle fibers activated, how long can they 'stay on'? if not long enough then the CP/ATP system runs empty before you can finish what you wanna do.

3 - with your max # of fibers activated, how much power can you produce? Gotta think this is a straight-up correlation w/how much % fast-twitch fibers you have.

That's why I rely on the basic science that show that you tend to get better at what you practice. I don't have time and money to waste.

I rely on science too & dont have money to burn. I am my own coach see?

The thing is I have not seen the studies on explosive weight training + sprint cycling. Have you? If yes, can you discuss? If I could see them or know of someone who did them, then it would be great to read the material & learn the findings.

If nobody has done it though then it's no big thing for a person to do a few weeks of explosive weights + sprints in winter to see how it goes. Seeing how many people cut way back on cycling for winter b'cause of cold weather + short days. I plan to downhill & x-c ski this winter b'cause I wont ride as much as in the warmer weather.

On the question of train by science or habit/old-school remark, I've not gotten the impression that the science has shown that weightlifting is bad for bicycle sprints. Certainly Fergie has some strong opinions about specificity, but everything else I read and hear from coaches and pros in the cycling community is that cross training is a good thing. My own reading leaves me inclined to say that improvements in the ATP-PCr and fast glycolytic systems should carry over to the bike in every event up to and possibly including the 1k, since these systems are the major systems creating the power you'll use for most of the race even in a 1k.

The question I get outta this discussion 'bout weights + bike sprinting is this: will gains from explosive weight training in positions/speeds similar to the bike..........transfer to on-bike power?

Weights seem very specific to how you do them, angles, yadda yadda. So to transfer to the bike - that I do not know.'

I think Fergie is toying with us!! Look @ what I found below, maybe he will say it doesnt work or he changed his mind. The 'day mentality'!!!

Hello Everyone

Here is my outline of training for a sprinter. Feel free to pick it to pieces. The most important thing is not so much what training a rider does but what effect it has on them and how they communicate this to you. The best results I had with a sprinter was one that I personally trained in the gym and was on hand for most of her track work. A lot of speed work was done on a windtrainer at the gym. Much the same as the success I had with a road rider building towards the World Road Champs where I didn't observe much of his training but we was in contact up to three times a day leading up to his departure for Europe.

For sprinters I follow a multi-tier approach as opposed to the more periodised approach I use for endurance. Everything is trained year round and it is the amounts that vary depending on what phase one is in.

This means medium term aerobic, short term aerobic, anaerobic capacity, alactic capacity, power and strength (both ATP system) are all included in the programme.

Based on the goal event and the main requirements (sprint = anaerobic capacity) one looks at the levels 2 up and 2 below the main requirement and trains all 5.

For a sprinter...

+2: ATP Strength and Power
+1: Alactic Capacity
Main: Anaerobic Capacity
-1: Short Term Endurance (around maxV02)
-2: Medium Term Endurance (around anaerobic threshold)

For a roadie it would look like...

+2: Anaerobic Capacity
+1: Short Term Endurance
Main: Medium Term Endurance
+1: Long Term Endurance (around aerobic threshold)
+2: Very Long Term Endurance (below aerobic threshold)

Note I still get roadies to do very short sprints of 6-10sec or two lamp posts start in the saddle in medium gear (53X19-17) as a type of weights on wheels workout.

Training is then based on each requirement and the volumes at each level is varied depending on the priority. It generally goes from endurance through to strength and power for sprinters. The easiest way is to take the time till the goal event and divide by 5.

Note I do things differently for roadies who spend as much time as possible in the long term endurance phase before a block at MT Endurance, a block at ST endurance and a 2 week block of Anaerobic capacity before a 2 week taper to the goal event. This is because 75% of road racing is done within the aerobic and anaerobic threshold and the more power they can produce and sustain at this level the less time they spend in the energy sapping anaerobic levels. Sprinters however need to train fast all year long.

Instead of the usual 7 day microcycle I have gone for a 14 day period. All training sessions have goals of either time or max lift achieved. If you can't get close to a PB then pack up. Also you hit a PB then pack up, reward yourself for hitting new targets!

Example schedules based on a masters level rider with 20 years in the sport, a good understanding of weight training and racing at Denton Park, Christchurch, New Zealand's regular racing on a Wednesday and Sunday from late October to early March.

Medium term endurance phase...

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 3 X 5min @ anaerobic threshold
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie Powercleans pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 12 X 15ses on 15sec off at maxV02
Sat: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie Deadlifts pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 3 X 5min @ anaerobic threshold
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 12 X 15sec on 15 sec off at max V02
Sat: 3 X 5 min @ anaerobic threshold
Sun: am Lower body Strength pm Track Racing

Short term endurance phase...

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 12 X 15sec on 15sec off at max V02
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie ****** pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 12 X 15ses on 15sec off at maxV02
Sat: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie Squats pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 12 X 15sec on 15sec off at max V02
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 3 X 5min @ anaerobic threshold
Sat: 12 X 15sec on 15sec off at max V02
Sun: am Lower body Strength pm Track Racing

Anaerobic Capacity Phase

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 5X20sec (or 250m) at high speed
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie High volume plyos pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 3 X 5min @ anaerobic threshold
Sat: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie Leg press pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 5X20sec (or 250m) at high speed
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 8 X 6sec at max speed
Sat: 12 X 15sec on 15sec off at maxV02
Sun: am Lower body Strength pm Track Racing

Alactic Capacity Phase

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie Low volume plyos pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 5X20sec (or 250m) at high speed
Sat: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie Split Squats pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 8 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 8 X 6sec at max speed
Sat: 12 X 15sec on 15sec off at maxV02
Sun: am Lower body Strength pm Track Racing

Now is the time to use the bike to get you up to speed (ie 65-72kph) and then between turn 3 and 4 kick round the bike to the line. Can be done on windtrainer but on track is better to replicate the effort and handling required to kick off a wheel.

ATP Phase

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 4 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie Low volume plyos with weights pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 2X20sec (or 250m) at high speed
Sat: 4 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie One leg leg press pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 4 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 4 X 6sec at max speed
Sat: 6 X 15sec on 15sec off at maxV02
Sun: am Lower body Strength pm Track Racing

This is the final lead up to goal event and is done once then in the final 14 days to the goal event changes to...

Mon: Rest Day
Tues: 2 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am. Lower Body Power ie Low volume plyos with weights pm Track Racing
Thur: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 20sec (or 250m) at high speed
Sat: 2 X 6 sec at max speed
Sun: am Lower Body Strength ie One leg leg press pm Track Racing
Mon: Rest Day
Tue: 2 X 6 sec at max speed
Wed: am Lower Body Power pm Track Racing
Thu: Rest Day
Fri: am. Upper body weights pm. 2 X 6sec at max speed
Sat: Goal Event
Sun: Goal Event

Very little aerobic training in the last two phases but before all anaerobic and alactic workouts one should do this to warm up...

-5-15 min at aerobic threshold
-Stretching
-1-5 min below aerobic threshold
-5 min at anaerobic threshold
-1-5 min below aerobic threshold
-1 min at max aerobic pace
-2-10 min below aerobic threshold
-30 sec flat out
-ride at below aerobic threshold to start/training

This and a decent warm down negates the need for much aerobic training in the last two phases.

With the weight training the goal is to hit a new PB and then do some supplemental exercises. Select one main exercise hit the PB and then if lower body do some hamstring, glute, lower back and abs work. For upper body try and hit a PB for a Chest and Back exercise then do some supplemental work on the biceps, triceps, rear delts/rotator cuff abs and lower back. Power days are harder to judge as you use a load between 30-70% of max or body weight. If you don't have the snap in your efforts then pack up.

Most of this programme is based on my own understanding of cycling, physiology and sprinting. It includes elements from the new Aussie programme, a little of the old Gary West programme, some Charlie Francis from T&F sprinting (less the steroids), Louie Simmons conjugate method of training (less the steroids) for Powerlifters (which draws on Russian physiologist and biomechanist Yuri Verkoshansky), Mel Siff (strength/speed training expert, sadly deceased) and Peter Coe's (father of Seb Coe) multi tier training philosophy. Not much of the old East German programme as a lot of it is 3rd-4th hand information, it's 20 years old anyway and they took ****-loads of drugs.

Cheers

Hamish Ferguson
Christchurch, New Zealand

 

[fergie]

I said strength only in the context of being a powerful sprinter. Not for the ultra slow-twitcher/enduro/aerobic cat himself, Boardman. He had as much need for a good sprint as Usain Bolt does for a fast marathon time: utterly useless for their target events. Then we are not talking 40k TT's or marathons, we are talking sprints, 500m, 1000m here.

If a pursuiter can get up to speed faster they should have an advantage over their opponent. But then Boardman was nearly 2 sec down on his Italian rival at one point before going on the ride to the World 4000m Record in 1996.

What is the 'day mentality'? Are you saying short-sighted or short term? Proper scientific inquiry always requires further investigation & even looking at the most sacred of sacred cows with a critical eye. For 200+ years Newtons theories of gravity were hella useful for practical matters & low velocity problems. Should Einstein then have left the matter untouched, seeing as it had worked so well for so long? We should always look critically upon work for ways it may be improved upon.

I think there is still a bit of work going on looking at the usefulness of auxiliary training for athletes. I am critical of the suggestion that one can't train the alactic and anaerobic systems on the bike.

The studies I find usually agree: weights + enduro cycling = compromised perf in both. What I have not found yet are the studies on explosive weight training + sprint cycling. If I were a grad student or researcher then prolly I'd have access to the databases. Since I aint neither, ha ha, then I can only find exec. summaries & abstracts.

Quite a bit of stuff out there but the designs are pretty bad and very few subject numbers and they tend to play up minor results and downplay actual performance results as they usually only publish studies that find some statistically significant result.

Frank Day's beloved Luttrell study amongst other things wasn't looking for improved efficiency but seeing that was the only statistically significant result they found that is what they reported on. Not good science and the difference was still within the possiblility of equipment or measurement error which is why I they got laughed off stage at ACSM and could only get published in a strength and conditioning journal which is from an industry that depends on people believing that auxiliary forms of training provide some benefit.

A study of lifting slow/heavy + sprint cycling would be of marginal use. Lift slow/heavy makes you good at slow/heavy, even I know that. Lifting fast & in positions close to what you use for bike sprinting - that'd be the good comparison.

Seated Starts (like stomps), NZ Teams Pursuit do seated start Kilo's in big gears and most are around the 1.03 - 1.04 mark. That's hauling! Short Standing starts varying the gears. Rolling starts at 15-30kph. Flying starts where the motorbike gets sprinters up to speed so they can do 10-15sec efforts at max speed. All these things train the alactic and anaerobic systems and bring in the psychology and biomechanical aspects of the sport.

Starts using the starting gates, in front of coaches and teammates teaching focus and skills as well as overload physiological systems. Riders on the track rolling round in groups of 2 going on the whistle for selected times, if whistle goes on the banking then they also train that skill, competitiveness of match sprinting and the reaction times needed when an opponent leaps into action. Efforts off the motorbike challenging the fear riding the tight bends at 70-80kph and the G forces one encounters at such speeds going through such tight bends.

Some might think that sprinters then need a lot of upper body strength to ride bikes like that but the Aussie Sprinters did very little upper body work. They had rather big legs and not much upper body. Why have extra weight slowing down acceleration and more frontal area to push through the wind when the at the crazy speeds sprinters ride at aerodynamics is the main thing slowing them down. Look at the upper bodies of Madison riders who in two rider pairings sling each other into action. Most are roadies who ride track in the Euro Winter and have very little upper body muscle because for their main job it's weight they don't want to cart up 20km climbs.

I dunno the ex-physiology behind it but fast twitch perf. seems to me to have a few key parts:

1 - how long does it take you to turn on your max # of muscles fibers? 0.7 seconds sounds fast except when the person sprinting next to you can apply max force in 0.1 seconds. Then you prolly will be toast. Guessing this is a CNS function.

Everything is CNS function except for some basic reflexes that come from the PNS.

2 - once you do have the max # of muscle fibers activated, how long can they 'stay on'? if not long enough then the CP/ATP system runs empty before you can finish what you wanna do.

Not long as CP is depleted in 5-10sec.

3 - with your max # of fibers activated, how much power can you produce? Gotta think this is a straight-up correlation w/how much % fast-twitch fibers you have.

Initial gains in training at from the CNS and from then it is the adaptations to the muscle (hypertrophy) and greater storage of CP increasing work capacity. But this can be taken too far. One can get so big that that any strength advantage is lost to power/weight and power/FSA equations and time that should have been spent developing skills was wasted in the gym.

If nobody has done it though then it's no big thing for a person to do a few weeks of explosive weights + sprints in winter to see how it goes. Seeing how many people cut way back on cycling for winter b'cause of cold weather + short days. I plan to downhill & x-c ski this winter b'cause I wont ride as much as in the warmer weather.

That is the Catch 22 of sprinting and too much specific training. It's not too good for fitness. Whether in the Gym or down the track you do your set of Powercleans or a Standing Start and you need to rest 5-10 mins before doing a 2nd set and you can only do 5-6 starts or sets of quality gym exercises. Very hard to stay in good condition training like this.

Same with anaerobic training. A quality Kilo takes hours to recover from and a quality Pursuit effort takes 20-30min. Again you don't get a lot of work done in a session. You may achieve a lot but the risk is losing good condition. This is why guys like Phinney and Roulston were doing Stage Races up to two weeks before their pursuit performances at Beijing in 08 and World Champs this year.

To me the question isn't what is the effect of more strength on performance it's how much specific training can I do (as this is the stuff the powermeter shows us is actually make us go faster) without losing good condition?

 

[fergie]

I think Fergie is toying with us!! Look @ what I found below, maybe he will say it doesnt work or he changed his mind.

Main thing with that programme is the overall workload is huge. A full time cyclists would struggle with that volume of work. I still experiment with training methods and workloads but if you look to the discussion that followed here and on Fixed Gear Fever you will see that I concluded that there were better ways to skin the cat. All my sprint athletes do resistance training it's just a matter of priority. You won't see them in the gym trying to recreate joint angles or match the rate of movement from cycling. Especially track cyclists spinning at 120-180rpm.

 

[velomanct]

Imagine the performance gains if riders spent the amount of time they do defending weight training, by actually putting in quality miles on the bike?


I do about 20 minutes a week in the gym, on upper body. No need to do anymore more. The rest of my time is out there destroying my bike pedals.

 

[Enriss]

You mustn't read widely and hear from coaches who work at the Elite level. Many of us use strength and conditioning training or exercises but it is a matter of prioritisation.

I'm just saying that reading around on google, I see all sorts of pros saying that cross training is a good thing. All levels of people seem to be saying that it's a good idea to take up running or swimming or skating or weightlifting or something like that during the off-season. You're the first person I've ever talked to who says it's a bad idea, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for challenging the idea that cross-training is good, since I'd never have thought about it as much otherwise.

It's been done by sprinters and they performed worse. Even sprinting is not limited by 1-5sec power as experienced coaches (those who understand the sport they are coaching) know that riders who may have the highest peak speed or power get rolled by the guys who have the better 15-61sec ave power.

15-61 sec ave. power is limited by the ability of the ATP-PCr and fast glycolytic systems to create power. Strength training improves the ATP portion of that system, AND your strength can limit your ability to perform tasks that stress the fast glycolytic metabolism, since if you can't leg press 400 lbs to begin with, you're not going to be able to move 400 lbs a whole bunch of times in a short period.

Are you saying you can't train the ATP-PCr and Fast Glycolytic Systems on the bike? Because I have a stack of power data that would suggest you can.

Sure you can, but I think you can also train in the gym in a way that will carry over to a bike.

 

[fergie]

I'm just saying that reading around on google

Well there is the problem. Pubmed or preferably read the whole study.

You're the first person I've ever talked to who says it's a bad idea, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for challenging the idea that cross-training is good, since I'd never have thought about it as much otherwise.

Have a read of the gymming for strength thread. Trust me I'm not the only one.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/126133-gyming-improve-power.html

Sure you can, but I think you can also train in the gym in a way that will carry over to a bike.

Not that you can prove crossover to cycling but why would one try and train something in the gym if one can do it in the manner one intends to perform in?

 

[velomanct]

I'll put it this way:

If you are seeing improvements from gym training, with your on-the-bike performance, then you are clearly no where near as well trained you could/should be with your sport (bike training).

Yes, noobs might see a benefit, but us seasoned riders know what works for us and what doesn't. We see the best use of our time as pedaling our bikes.

Gyming to improve cycling is like having an archer take up bowling to improve his arrow shooting skills.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Imagine if people interjecting into this discussion actually read what was being said??

The whole 'defending weight training' comment is a strawman. Has Enriss or me said that squats will help you break 50 minutes in your 40k TT or get you to 5w/kg or win you the TDF?

What we are asking & discussing, not claiming as fact, is if explosive weights can help cycle sprinting. I have not seen studies on this topic. If I had or if someone can show them to me then I'd love to read'em & learn more.

I disagree with your comment:

I'll put it this way:

If you are seeing improvements from gym training, with your on-the-bike performance, then you are clearly no where near as well trained you could/should be with your sport (bike training).

Yes, noobs might see a benefit, but us seasoned riders know what works for us and what doesn't. We see the best use of our time as pedaling our bikes.

Gyming to improve cycling is like having an archer take up bowling to improve his arrow shooting skills.

On the contray, I reckon it is the advanced riders (not me b'cause i'm on month 6 of my bike career) whose sprint could possibly benefit most from weight training. Why? b'cause as a newbie, I have lots to gain from on-bike sprinting, learning how to coordinate the sprints, teaching the muscles the specific patterns used to sprint, improving NM skill for sprinting, yadda yadda. Hella room for improvement & at month 6 of the bike career, my sprint is not at max. No surprise, it has improved & prolly will keep doing so for a time as I get better.

Eventually though for advanced riders with great technique & excellent form & skill with sprints - muscle size & force production is an issue. The size of your muscle is what determines the amt. of force it can potentially generate. The best place to make a muscle bigger & get hypertrophy is in the gym w/explosive exercises & weights closely simulating cycling sprint. Adavnced riders/sprinters already have superior NM coordination & technique for sprinting so what's left? Force production which is a function of muscle size/volume/x-section.

Yea maybe half-baked but that's what I make of this so far.

 

[fergie]

Eventually though for advanced riders with great technique & excellent form & skill with sprints - muscle size & force production is an issue. The size of your muscle is what determines the amt. of force it can potentially generate. The best place to make a muscle bigger & get hypertrophy is in the gym w/explosive exercises & weights closely simulating cycling sprint. Adavnced riders/sprinters already have superior NM coordination & technique for sprinting so what's left? Force production which is a function of muscle size/volume/x-section.

Yea maybe half-baked but that's what I make of this so far.

While all sprinters should lift they sprint faster because they train to sprint faster not because of their efforts in the gym. Bigger muscles don't always mean stronger riders. Remember power to weight and power to frontal surface area.

If you have been around Sprint Cycling for a while you can see that even the best have much to learn in terms of conditioning, skills, psychology and sports specific preparation. As per usual the Brits lead the way. They are the masters of crossing the i's and dotting the t's. Having a big budget helps. Their main expense is buying track time so Mr's Hoy, Kenny and McLean can hone their skills.

 

[Enriss]

Well there is the problem. Pubmed or preferably read the whole study.

Well, if you have scientific studies saying that weight training is detrimental to sprinting performance, I'd like to see them. Otherwise, all I have to go on is the "wisdom of the crowd" which seems to say overwhelmingly that cross-training is good for your performance AND your health.

Have a read of the gymming for strength thread. Trust me I'm not the only one.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/126133-gyming-improve-power.html

Training for powerful lifting is inhibited by endurance training. Agreed. The current discussion, unless I'm very much confused, is about track cycling. Maybe the thread was hijacked to get here, but track cycling is the subject I'm trying to talk about.

Not that you can prove crossover to cycling but why would one try and train something in the gym if one can do it in the manner one intends to perform in?

Not that you've been able to disprove crossover to cycling, but why couldn't weight training be done in a way that benefits cycling?
I think your emphasis of specificity as the be all end all of training is an oversimplification that ignores the possibility that motor pathways created by training in conditions that aren't actually the exact same might interfere with the development of the pathways used during the actual effort. Specificity is certainly an important consideration, but I get the impression that you nearly ignore everything that doesn't involve a cyclist training on their bike.
It also ignores the benefits to joint health and hip mobility that come from an exercise like the squat.

 

[velomanct]

I use myself as an example for why I don't think weight training has much of an effect on NM power for cyclists.

I look like the typical roadie, 6'2" 175lbs, probably even skinnier than Theo Bos, but I've trained myself to hit 26w/kg (peak) through on-the-bike sprint training. I have lifted in the past, but never consistently, and not this year as I did personal bests. My weight was dropping as I was putting up my biggest numbers.

I would conceed there is a much better arguement for weight training for the sprint cyclist, compared to the endurance cyclist. But I still don't think weight training is all that important for the sprint cyclist. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't done scientific studies on it, just my own observations. I went from 1400 to 2000w without adding any muscle. (Maybe it's related to aging from 19 to 24?)

I would like to experiment again with weights, but I'm hesistant because every time I do, my lower back gives me problems. Maybe I can work around that. And maybe my ability could be even better with proper weight training? It's possible, but I don't see any need for the road sprinter to do weights to improve their sprint. They can make plenty of improvement on the bike and improving their 1 minute power which has a much bigger impact on race results than peak power.

 

[fergie]

Well, if you have scientific studies saying that weight training is detrimental to sprinting performance, I'd like to see them. Otherwise, all I have to go on is the "wisdom of the crowd" which seems to say overwhelmingly that cross-training is good for your performance AND your health.

Sounds like you must hang with a group of personal trainers.

Not that you've been able to disprove crossover to cycling, but why couldn't weight training be done in a way that benefits cycling?

It's up to you to prove weight training will crossover to cycling. Sorry mate I'm too busy making cyclists go fast.

I think your emphasis of specificity as the be all end all of training is an oversimplification that ignores the possibility that motor pathways created by training in conditions that aren't actually the exact same might interfere with the development of the pathways used during the actual effort.

Well it's an oversimplification that has been working pretty well so far. Yes I am concerned that non specific training will interfere with motor pathways that I am trying to develop for actual performance.

Specificity is certainly an important consideration, but I get the impression that you nearly ignore everything that doesn't involve a cyclist training on their bike.

Well it's not the first misunderstanding of my position you have made.






It also ignores the benefits to joint health and hip mobility that come from an exercise like the squat.[/QUOTE]

 

[Enriss]

Well, your observations are probably more important than just about anything I'd have to say. All I'd have to contribute here is that you can certainly get stronger without gaining any weight. Unless I'm much mistaken, this happens when your body's ability to recruit muscle goes up. I'm not sure how to train for that sort of thing, but I think I might've heard guys like Pavel Tsatsouline recommend bodyweight exercises that take advantage of leverage. I'm not sure how much barbell training would contribute, but I'm guessing a guy squatting a few hundred pounds is using most of his muscle fibers

 

[fergie]

I would like to experiment again with weights, but I'm hesistant because every time I do, my lower back gives me problems. Maybe I can work around that. And maybe my ability could be even better with proper weight training? It's possible, but I don't see any need for the road sprinter to do weights to improve their sprint. They can make plenty of improvement on the bike and improving their 1 minute power which has a much bigger impact on race results than peak power.

Always amuses me that people advocate weight training for improved health and injury prevention when the biggest cause of down time in track cyclists is from injuries sustained in the gym. Even more so than crashes on the track.

 

[fergie]

Well, your observations are probably more important than just about anything I'd have to say. All I'd have to contribute here is that you can certainly get stronger without gaining any weight. Unless I'm much mistaken, this happens when your body's ability to recruit muscle goes up. I'm not sure how to train for that sort of thing, but I think I might've heard guys like Pavel Tsatsouline recommend bodyweight exercises that take advantage of leverage. I'm not sure how much barbell training would contribute, but I'm guessing a guy squatting a few hundred pounds is using most of his muscle fibers

1. If you are getting your ideas from Pavel (a Frank Day of the weight training industry like Paul Chek and Charles Poliquinn) then a picture is starting to form about your qualifications to contribute to serious discussion on training sprinters.

2. It's pretty simple, the guy set a goal to improve his NM power and went from pedalling maximally at 1400watts to a rather excellent 2000watts. My question is apart from the 50m standing start did this lead to a corresponding improvement in your 1000m time or flying 200m?

3. I am sure a maximal squat does recruit all the muscle fibres required to perform a squat and while both the squat and cycling motion involves knee and hip extension they don't involve the same muscle fibres.

4. If one looks at the cycle exercise in the event involving the most power (rider 1 in the Team Sprint) they will perform a maximal effort for 2-3 strokes then the cadence will start to rise and power will start to drop and CP will be depleted and anaerobic glycolysis will take over as primary source of fuel in the muscle for the 17sec it takes to ride 250m. So even in this event maximal strength accounts for 10-15% of the performance at best.

So yes I will play my specificity card again. No overstrength, no overspeed, no overpower and btw, no underspeed either, no 3 hour training rides. Biggest things for a sprinter is ability to go hard for 15-61sec, ability to recover fast and to have good condition. Learn from the Aussies mistakes doing too much 1-6sec power training to the detriment of their race specific power and ability.

 

[velomanct]

I've seen little improvement in top end speed (200m+ events).

The main improvement I've seen is in pure acceleration. Any instance where true maximal power is required. Perhaps when getting those first 10- 20 meters gap during an attack in a race, (assuming I wasn't anaerobic). Or any sort of 'start', obviously.

1. Biggest things for a sprinter is ability to go hard for 15-61sec, ability to recover fast and to have good condition.

That's the bottom line that most racers need to realize.

 

[Enriss]

Sounds like you must hang with a group of personal trainers.

Nah, I just appreciate the fact that not training a movement through the full range of motion can cause imbalances between the muscles around your joints, and this makes people more injury prone.

It's up to you to prove weight training will crossover to cycling. Sorry mate I'm too busy making cyclists go fast.

Well, that's fair. I'll get on that

Well it's an oversimplification that has been working pretty well so far. Yes I am concerned that non specific training will interfere with motor pathways that I am trying to develop for actual performance.

What I meant to imply somewhere in that post(and then forgot to) is that training on a bike in a manner you don't intend to race in interrupts those pathways more substantially than weight training would. I should look for a citation on that one...

Well it's not the first misunderstanding of my position you have made.

Of course not, but every time I say anything about how weight training might benefit cyclists of any variety, your response always seems to be some variant of "specificity specificity specificity!"

On another topic, have I already asked you for any recommended reading on cycling training? I'd be interested in reading just about anything you could suggest. I think the last time I asked someone around here for suggestions, they mentioned Friel's "Training Bible," which I have yet to pick up, and a bunch of internet sites that I've bookmarked.