Your thoughts on strength training for the legs

[fergie]

Nah, I just appreciate the fact that not training a movement through the full range of motion can cause imbalances between the muscles around your joints, and this makes people more injury prone.

So some form of general conditioning in the off and pre season perhaps. I suggest Yoga for all my cyclists in the off season and a little bit of maintenance in season. Again it is prioritising these things.

What I meant to imply somewhere in that post(and then forgot to) is that training on a bike in a manner you don't intend to race in interrupts those pathways more substantially than weight training would. I should look for a citation on that one...

Not much of a rationale for weight training. Think I might have mentioned that I don't get my sprinters doing huge amounts of endurance work although some of the sprinters added up all the riding from competition days with warm ups and cool downs and racing and found they had ridden anywhere from 3-5hours. At 2007 Oceania Games the Aussies (inc Ryan Bayley and Shane Kelly) spent 6 hours warming up before riding their flying 200m TT.

Of course not, but every time I say anything about how weight training might benefit cyclists of any variety, your response always seems to be some variant of "specificity specificity specificity!"

And there was Swampy saying I was inconsistent.

On another topic, have I already asked you for any recommended reading on cycling training? I'd be interested in reading just about anything you could suggest. I think the last time I asked someone around here for suggestions, they mentioned Friel's "Training Bible," which I have yet to pick up, and a bunch of internet sites that I've bookmarked.

Only book worth reading is "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" by Allen and Coggan. 2nd ed is coming soon I hear.

Nothing of use on the Net. All the top coaches are tied up with National teams and don't let too much information out. Some even will feed bulls**t out on the Net and in Conferences to obscure what they are really doing. This approach is prominent from some teams that are clearly still running a doping programme. "Yes Sir our riders started using Gimickcranks and that's why they can ride up Hors category climbs in the big ring".

 

[Enriss]

Always amuses me that people advocate weight training for improved health and injury prevention when the biggest cause of down time in track cyclists is from injuries sustained in the gym. Even more so than crashes on the track.

3.3 injuries / 1000 training hours seems not so high. That's the result of a six year study of 27 olympic weightlifters published by the NIH.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1322916/pdf/jathtrain00007-0016.pdf

So some form of general conditioning in the off and pre season perhaps. I suggest Yoga for all my cyclists in the off season and a little bit of maintenance in season. Again it is prioritising these things.

Maybe I'll have to try yoga sometime, but I have a hard time seeing how it could correct a muscle imbalance serious enough to make a rider injury prone.

Not much of a rationale for weight training. Think I might have mentioned that I don't get my sprinters doing huge amounts of endurance work although some of the sprinters added up all the riding from competition days with warm ups and cool downs and racing and found they had ridden anywhere from 3-5hours. At 2007 Oceania Games the Aussies (inc Ryan Bayley and Shane Kelly) spent 6 hours warming up before riding their flying 200m TT.

WOW! Y'know, I don't see any medals for Shane Kelly on his wiki coming from that event. After all that warmup, did he melt the medal they tried to give him?

And there was Swampy saying I was inconsistent.

Oh, I'm sure I just haven't been talking to you for long enough for you to have changed your mind

Only book worth reading is "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" by Allen and Coggan. 2nd ed is coming soon I hear.

Cool, I'll see if I can find it around here. Is it worth reading even if I don't have a powermeter? What if I have access to standing gym bikes? They're obviously not the same as riding a real bike, but in terms of testing my power, it makes some sense to me that I could get reasonable numbers off of them.

Nothing of use on the Net. All the top coaches are tied up with National teams and don't let too much information out. Some even will feed bulls**t out on the Net and in Conferences to obscure what they are really doing. This approach is prominent from some teams that are clearly still running a doping programme. "Yes Sir our riders started using Gimickcranks and that's why they can ride up Hors category climbs in the big ring".

Aww, and you don't believe them Fergie? Tsk tsk, don't you know you should believe everything anybody tells you.

 

[fergie]

3.3 injuries / 1000 training hours seems not so high. That's the result of a six year study of 27 olympic weightlifters published by the NIH.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1322916/pdf/jathtrain00007-0016.pdf

No surprises there. They are weightlifters training "specifically for their sport" under close supervision with years of experience and coaching. Also training at an Olympic facility one would expect they have access to therapists and coaches for massage and stretching and physiotherapists on hand if any minor complications occur. Question is, do these guys cross train? Perhaps they should give track sprinting a go.

Maybe I'll have to try yoga sometime, but I have a hard time seeing how it could correct a muscle imbalance serious enough to make a rider injury prone.

That is why you do Yoga in the first place to develop all round condition. For the sprinter I would suggest this gets ramped up to a full weights programme. We do regular muscle balance assessments on our carded (to NZ Academy of Sport) cyclists to keep a check on things. One cyclist has a back injury (acute, silly bugger forgot to put his bars back up after running them real low for a short TT then went and raced 50miles in the hail and sleet) and the physiotherapist taught him breathing exercises which corrected the problem and has done so for several other cyclists in the area with back issues.

WOW! Y'know, I don't see any medals for Shane Kelly on his wiki coming from that event. After all that warmup, did he melt the medal they tried to give him?

He had to settle for winning the Keirin at that meet, he pulled out of the sprints.

Cool, I'll see if I can find it around here. Is it worth reading even if I don't have a powermeter? What if I have access to standing gym bikes? They're obviously not the same as riding a real bike, but in terms of testing my power, it makes some sense to me that I could get reasonable numbers off of them.

Yes, I recommend it to any cyclist wanting to improve as a rider. In the bigger scheme of things Powermeters haven't changed the way we train cyclists it's just given us the feedback and evidence we suspected was right that specific training leads to the biggest gains in performance.

The gym bikes are a start but gym bikes or indoor trainers are not riding on the road, track or trails, uphills, downhills, into headwinds, cold or hot, indoor or outdoor tracks but if that's all you have and the weather or other environmental conditions preclude hitting the road then it's the next best thing.

Aww, and you don't believe them Fergie? Tsk tsk, don't you know you should believe everything anybody tells you.

Yes go the anecdotal evidence. Who needs science when Lance does weights or Franco Pinotti uses Gimmickcranks.

 

[Enriss]

No surprises there. They are weightlifters training "specifically for their sport" under close supervision with years of experience and coaching. Also training at an Olympic facility one would expect they have access to therapists and coaches for massage and stretching and physiotherapists on hand if any minor complications occur. Question is, do these guys cross train? Perhaps they should give track sprinting a go.

Haha, I was starting to wonder when the tables would turn and someone would suggest to me that I consider the benefits of track cycling for weight training or something like that.
I wouldn't be too surprised if the guys at westside barbell have done something like it already. There are a number of people experimenting with adding "dynamic effort" workouts to their power lifting workouts, but I think those mostly involve barbell movements like jump squats or Olympic lifts. Given that most competitive lifts are completed in under 6 seconds, the stress of a bike effort of any appreciable duration probably won't use the same energy system. I could see someone incorporating some standing starts into a dynamic effort day though.

That is why you do Yoga in the first place to develop all round condition. For the sprinter I would suggest this gets ramped up to a full weights programme.

People do Yoga with weights? That's news to me.

Yes, I recommend it to any cyclist wanting to improve as a rider. In the bigger scheme of things Powermeters haven't changed the way we train cyclists it's just given us the feedback and evidence we suspected was right that specific training leads to the biggest gains in performance.

Okay, cool. I'll give it a look.

 

[fergie]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the guys at westside barbell have done something like it already.

Does beg the question why Louie won't let people in the gym before they have done an extensive conditioning block of exercises like long walks pulling sleds etc when the strength demands of these exercises are nowhere close to the demands of the Powerlifting that forms the core of an Westside workout. Then after these main exercises they do sets of high rep isolation exercises to again condition the athletes. Condition them for what???

There are a number of people experimenting with adding "dynamic effort" workouts to their power lifting workouts, but I think those mostly involve barbell movements like jump squats or Olympic lifts. Given that most competitive lifts are completed in under 6 seconds, the stress of a bike effort of any appreciable duration probably won't use the same energy system. I could see someone incorporating some standing starts into a dynamic effort day though.

6sec??? Didn't see any Olympic lifters perform an exercise that slow in Beijing coverage. Sure you have seen the video of Fred Hatfield's world record squat. Blink and you miss it. 1 sec and your taking too long.

Only event where this may have an impact is start of Team Sprint and Match Sprints that start from a slow pace (very rare on indoor 250m tracks where most sprints go from a lap and a quarter to a lap and a half out) and it's only the first 2-3 pedal strokes. But this can all be trained on the bike. I was down with the National Paralymlic Squad using high speed video (300 frames per second) and we were picking up heaps of technical details to work on from each effort. Biggest issue is time, use of the facility (down in Invercargill so we were all flown in) and cost to hire. I want to book time on the track down there and it's chocka till after our Nationals.

But the crux is there is plenty of improvement and gains to be made from working on standing starts where you also train the technical and psychological as well as physiology. Even if you could prove some form of biological crossover gym work doesn't improve technique and psychology.

And as I may have mentioned a million times already the Aussie Sprinters obsessed over peak power and speed on the bike and peak strength in the gym and got found out in competition. So there is some evidence that weight training and focusing on non event specific training compromised performance on race day.

People do Yoga with weights? That's news to me.

I'm sure they do, prob a nice informercial and you get the DVD for 3 easy instalments.

Sprinters should do weight training as part of their all round conditioning as it places a higher demand on the muscles and joints than they will encounter in competition. I wouldn't overemphasise it. The Aussie S&C coach was way stronger than any of the cyclists but couldn't ride a bike for peanuts. Also remember my handy sprinter whose lifts were well below those of many lesser sprinters. It's why I wonder why Louie uses low intensity exercises to condition people for higher intensity training. I think he may have things the wrong way round.

 

[Enriss]

Does beg the question why Louie won't let people in the gym before they have done an extensive conditioning block of exercises like long walks pulling sleds etc when the strength demands of these exercises are nowhere close to the demands of the Powerlifting that forms the core of an Westside workout. Then after these main exercises they do sets of high rep isolation exercises to again condition the athletes. Condition them for what???

Y'know, I think it's probably got a lot to do with making sure athletes don't tire out before the end of a powerlifting meet.
I'm not sure if in depth studies have been done or not, but I was reading some blog a while back, and some powerlifting type was gushing about how some conditioning work helped him recover between lifts at his meet. Powerlifting meets definitely don't rely on the oxidative system during the contested lifts, but I imagine have a well tuned oxidative system might assist in ATP regeneration between your three attempts each at the big three lifts with nearly 1000 lbs or more. That and lots of creatine.

6sec??? Didn't see any Olympic lifters perform an exercise that slow in Beijing coverage. Sure you have seen the video of Fred Hatfield's world record squat. Blink and you miss it. 1 sec and your taking too long.

I stressed the time frame there to emphasize the metabolic system, not to say anyone takes 6 seconds to pull 1008 off the floor.

 

[Felt_Rider]

To those who say there are no advantages to strength training and who are skeptics of lifting here are some advantages that I have personally observed.

1. I provide my group a nice break and refueling time since we normally have a rule to regroup at the summit of long climbs. Since I am carrying more mass up that long climb my group gets to have about 10 minutes of rest, eating, drinking, catch up on social news and take scenic pictures of each other standing at the overlook while I make my way to the top.

2. I provide encouragement to my group because at least the second to last guy or girl up that long climb can go home with the feeling of, "at least I wasn't the last one up."

3. I provide a nice peaceful draft to my group with the increased frontal area. With the width of my back and shoulders they can sit comfortably behind me in a headwind.

4. I provide protection to my group when an angry driver pulls over and thinks I can take 19 of them because they weigh about a pound more than their bikes, but that one over there, the stocky one, may put up more of a fight. (in all seriousness this has actually happened before and it was funny when the guy was so bold to confront the whole group until I stepped forward. He said I don't have a problem with you as if he has a problem with the whole group, but for some reason he is giving me a pass. Nice of him to let me off the hook. )

5. I provide to my group as being the dog bait. Once that pesky border collie sits at that spot just before the climb, my group knows they can sprint up the hill leaving me behind as the source of entertainment of this evil canine. Meanwhile the border collie has a bet with his buddies that he can bite each ankle 20 times before I can crest the summit.

6. I am the designated sweep rider for my group. Once the group gets up to their pace and riders begin to fall of the back like Haley's Comet the leader can rest assure that I will moving up from the back picking up the stragglers and leading them back to the parking lot.

Well those are just a few of the advantages of me lifting as viewed by my group. Anyone care to rebuttal these observations of the advantages?

 

[fergie]

I didn't need to go the gym to get the same results

 

[stevegreer]

To those who say there are no advantages to strength training and who are skeptics of lifting here are some advantages that I have personally observed.

1. I provide my group a nice break and refueling time since we normally have a rule to regroup at the summit of long climbs. Since I am carrying more mass up that long climb my group gets to have about 10 minutes of rest, eating, drinking, catch up on social news and take scenic pictures of each other standing at the overlook while I make my way to the top.

2. I provide encouragement to my group because at least the second to last guy or girl up that long climb can go home with the feeling of, "at least I wasn't the last one up."

3. I provide a nice peaceful draft to my group with the increased frontal area. With the width of my back and shoulders they can sit comfortably behind me in a headwind.

4. I provide protection to my group when an angry driver pulls over and thinks I can take 19 of them because they weigh about a pound more than their bikes, but that one over there, the stocky one, may put up more of a fight. (in all seriousness this has actually happened before and it was funny when the guy was so bold to confront the whole group until I stepped forward. He said I don't have a problem with you as if he has a problem with the whole group, but for some reason he is giving me a pass. Nice of him to let me off the hook. )

5. I provide to my group as being the dog bait. Once that pesky border collie sits at that spot just before the climb, my group knows they can sprint up the hill leaving me behind as the source of entertainment of this evil canine. Meanwhile the border collie has a bet with his buddies that he can bite each ankle 20 times before I can crest the summit.

6. I am the designated sweep rider for my group. Once the group gets up to their pace and riders begin to fall of the back like Haley's Comet the leader can rest assure that I will moving up from the back picking up the stragglers and leading them back to the parking lot.

Well those are just a few of the advantages of me lifting as viewed by my group. Anyone care to rebuttal these observations of the advantages?

Now that's a funny post! Thanks Felt_Rider!

 

[Denny418]

(This may have already been discussed somewhere back in this thread, but I can't find it.)

A couple of years ago I joined a gym and started doing isolated leg presses, ten reps with the left leg at 200+ pounds, ten reps with the right leg, etc. I reasoned that stronger legs could only help my cycling. Then I read in one of these forums, maybe even in this thread early on, that it's not leg strength that's the key - it's leg endurance, the ability to maybe push 50-60 pounds 45 times per second with each leg, and to be able to keep that up for 10,15, 20 minutes, etc. So I stopped working the legs in the gym.

But then I started wonder if doing the leg presses differently would be the answer. For example, using the leg machine to push maybe 100 pounds with each leg, over and over, as quickly as you can. That would seem to be more analogous to what you're trying to achieve on the bike, with an overload thrown in.

I let my gym membership lapse before I tried this, but I wouldn't have tried it anyway until some of our resident experts here gave a thumbs-up on it.

Opinions?

 

[alienator]

The best gym is out on the road.

 

[Enriss]

@Denny: It boils down to helping your body adapt to stress. You can put the exact stress required for your event on your body on your bike, so if you're going to train off of your bike, you should have a good reason for doing it. Doing a bunch of light leg presses isn't close enough to the stress of cycling to be beneficial to your muscular development. The metabolic system behind the activity is also unlikely to undergo substantial enough stress to create the adaptations you want to see. So basically, when you're doing your hypothetical leg press workout, your not stimulating the muscles to grow in a useful way, you're likely not forcing your body to create more sustainable aerobic power on a leg press machine, and you're not getting any fringe benefits like better core function out of it. The leg press trains a very small number of muscles, which is its purpose, but its purpose is useless to you.

 

[Denny418]

Alien and Enriss, yes, I think you're right. I can create the overload by just upping my power output on the bike beyond my normal sustainable limits. This whole topic reminds me of something that happened in a class when I was a grad student. The prof had put a whole bunch of equations on the board and then said, "Now, it's obvious that ..." and wrote one more equation. Then he stepped back and said, "No, wait a minute, it's not obvious." He studied the board for at least a minute, hand on his chin, scribbled a little off to the side, stepped back and contemplated again for a bit, and then said, "Yes, it is obvious."

 

[velomanct]

Eventually though for advanced riders with great technique & excellent form & skill with sprints - muscle size & force production is an issue. The size of your muscle is what determines the amt. of force it can potentially generate. The best place to make a muscle bigger & get hypertrophy is in the gym w/explosive exercises & weights closely simulating cycling sprint. Adavnced riders/sprinters already have superior NM coordination & technique for sprinting so what's left? Force production which is a function of muscle size/volume/x-section.

.

This might be true, but it doesn't explain why there are exceptionally powerful sprinters who are relatively skinny, such as Theo Bos.

I do want to experiment again with weights, but I just don't have that expectation of bigger muscles being more powerful. It seems like it makes sense, and I use to really believe it.

Maybe I'm still not at my potential due to my skinny build? That would be great

 

[Felt_Rider]

This might be true, but it doesn't explain why there are exceptionally powerful sprinters who are relatively skinny, such as Theo Bos.

I do want to experiment again with weights, but I just don't have that expectation of bigger muscles being more powerful. It seems like it makes sense, and I use to really believe it.

Maybe I'm still not at my potential due to my skinny build? That would be great

From what I have read of your posts you seem to be doing pretty good without weight training.

 

[Enriss]

This might be true, but it doesn't explain why there are exceptionally powerful sprinters who are relatively skinny, such as Theo Bos.

I do want to experiment again with weights, but I just don't have that expectation of bigger muscles being more powerful. It seems like it makes sense, and I use to really believe it.

Maybe I'm still not at my potential due to my skinny build? That would be great

It's one of those tricky things about coaching/training, that what works for one person might not work for another. Different people have different weaknesses, and those weakness need to be addressed.

 

[velomanct]

It's one of those tricky things about coaching/training, that what works for one person might not work for another. Different people have different weaknesses, and those weakness need to be addressed.

Good observation.


A while ago when I started doing weights, I sometimes *felt* stronger on the bike. But that may have more to do with the muscles being more open.


After years of doing many sprints, I've concluded that the single biggest determiner in sprint performance is your ability to be 100% 'open' and where your CNS allows you to really really go 100%.

Most of the time, that is not the case, and I get that 'average' feeling during sprints.

When I feel 100%, I feel like superman. It's just so rare.

Therefore I feel that maximizing your body's ability to truly explode 100% is the most important aspect of sprinting.

90% of roadies have no idea what that is. I'm sorry, but you don't. That's why your power is so low. Roadies are designed to move slooooooow and be efficient and weak (low power).

Not that it really matters, roadies don't need to to put out mega-wattage peaks to win races. But they do miss out on that fun.

 

[Enriss]

Good observation.


A while ago when I started doing weights, I sometimes *felt* stronger on the bike. But that may have more to do with the muscles being more open.


After years of doing many sprints, I've concluded that the single biggest determiner in sprint performance is your ability to be 100% 'open' and where your CNS allows you to really really go 100%.

Most of the time, that is not the case, and I get that 'average' feeling during sprints.

When I feel 100%, I feel like superman. It's just so rare.

Therefore I feel that maximizing your body's ability to truly explode 100% is the most important aspect of sprinting.

90% of roadies have no idea what that is. I'm sorry, but you don't. That's why your power is so low. Roadies are designed to move slooooooow and be efficient and weak (low power).

Not that it really matters, roadies don't need to to put out mega-wattage peaks to win races. But they do miss out on that fun.

Definitely. I love moving fast, almost as much as I like lifting heavy things.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Therefore I feel that maximizing your body's ability to truly explode 100% is the most important aspect of sprinting.

Gotta say bud, I think this is called positive TSB B'cause my sprint pwr correlates positively w/TSB.

90% of roadies have no idea what that is. I'm sorry, but you don't. That's why your power is so low. Roadies are designed to move slooooooow and be efficient and weak (low power).

Not that it really matters, roadies don't need to to put out mega-wattage peaks to win races. But they do miss out on that fun.

Ha ha, I know lotsa road riders let their sprints collect cobwebs, but I'm in the other 10% that does them every week, like clockwork & all.

Truth is, I detonate, explode, burst, pound the pedals (call it what you like) but no matter, my sprint is still 950-1000w. It aint for a lack of trying believe me!!! Theo Bos might say your 2000w are for a lack of trying right? But I bet you are trying pretty hard. It is in the genes if you ask me....

Makes sense & I know I'm no fast twitcher from past history. Ho-hum ex-volleyball plyr. w/mediocre vertical (20").

But you know what? That 950-1000w wins me hella sprints on group rides even vs. pretty high cat road riders. Now when I ride track then it is different. Compared to the real fast twichers, trackies, then they will probably fly by me.

So I'm no true fast twitcher but good enough to win sprints on the road. Race your strengths & train the weak points right? In match sprints I'm probably out of my element but in road sprints then thats more my element.

 

[Flyeater]

It's natural to think of cycling as an endurance sport but your legs might not see it that way. If I want to accelerate on my bike I'm doing the same thing as say 8 reps in the gym aren't I? Going from slow to fast requires me to exert myself, lower body torso and upper body and ultimately those say eight or fifteen revolutions of the pedals that put ten miles an hour on my speed are anaerobic.
It does not make a difference if you are going up hill or on the flat it's all about effort. Squats or deadlifts are not the best excercise (deadlifts especially) for cycling in my opinion for two reasons, firstly they use both legs at the same time cycling does not (this is a major difference in how your body functions) secondly they are both major bulk builders in the core and back.
For cycle specific training do one legged leg extensions s l o w l y until you are hurting (just as if you were riding, you would not destroy yourself ) and being forced to pant. Same for seated leg curls, constant speed throught the motion but like three seconds up three seconds down.
Lunges are the mutts nuts, why? because they are dynamic and you can do fifteen reps on your right leg then your left, this builds a stamina that cycling does not.( there is ALWAYS a break for one leg as the other works opposing muscles)
Sidways leg raises with ankle attachment to lower cable stack. This targets muscles that are not often used (unless you practice a martial art which uses a wide stance such as Tai Chi Pushing Hands for instance) but is utilised in cycling. Again it is more twisting/lateral strength than centered linear up down strength.
Hope this is of some help? Cheers, Ben. (I'm off down the gym)

P.S The most powerfull body is the most balanced body.