Your thoughts on strength training for the legs



In the spirit of getting practical and anecdotal, using your anecdote, do you find yourself capable of accelerating quickly during races? Are you capable of making strong attacks and catching up to riders when they break off?
 
Flyeater said:
It's funny to see the replies to my post. Some of you can't (not don't) even understand what weight training is for.

Yeah 15 years of writing weight training programmes and 4 years of those a s personal trainer and strength coach in a variety of sports it never really sunk in.

You have come to a conclusion and closed your mind. This is never a good state to be in.
Troll.

To say that accelerating is not like doing 8 or 15 reps in the gym because you keep going is a stupid thing to say.
Why Troll? Is there a 50m standing start event at World's. Prob is now at Olympics now they have taken the real events out.
The mechanisms in the body that maintain a rythmical constant (low exertion) are different to those that create great force. This is commonly known isn't it? it is different physically and chemically and even hormonaly resulting in different responses by the body (and mind) over time.
Bingo the troll has it, and because they are different doing one thing doesn't make you better at another.

Any how I'm out of here, people seem unable to discuss anything here (cycle forums) without being overly critical or poking fun. No worries, Ben.
Bye bye, thanks for playing.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
Well in the case of a standing start for an event like the kilo there are many coaches that definitely believe weights can be beneficial. But sure in the abstract it's easy to conclude that greater peak strength 'could' lead to greater acceleration on the bike.

99.9% of coaches do. Jason Queally is the only elite sprinter this decade I know of who stopped doing weights. Heck even if I am bang on the money and weights onkly helps the first 2-3 strokes of a sprint then if that is what lets you down in the end then hit the gym. Def applies to BMX, Downhill, Team Sprint 500m TT, Match Sprint, Keirin and possibly the Kilo (although both Nimke and Phinney placed 1st and 2nd in Kilo at Worlds despite having the 12th and 25th fastest times for the first 250m).

There's plenty of published literature and even more basic first principles including simple high school physics that demonstrates why peak strength just isn't a limiter to most racing cyclists. But folks simply don't want to hear or accept that answer.

And the wealth of power data and video analysis that some coaches have collected in an effort to determine the actual demands of the event before they determine what training methods should be adopted.
 
Enriss said:
I've certainly come to a conclusion, and until someone presents evidence or at LEAST a strong argument to the contrary I'll maintain it. Asking us to be open to your ideas without being willing to state the reasons for supporting such ideas speaks to grandiose illusions of self-worth.

The Aussies!!! Ryan Bayley had the highest peak speed of any sprinter which worked for him in Athens but by Beijing Hoy and co had come from the Kilo and could go long and fast and Bayley got smoked. I have the programmes they were on, all focused on peak speed, power and strength. Cycling isn't about peak power or speed. It;s ave power whether it's the 200m TT or the 21 day Tour de France!!! Understand the sport you are making claims about!

I don't think your response comes close to addressing his assertion that doing 8-10 rep work can increase a cyclist's ability to acclerate.
How hard is it? The kinematics of a standing start change in that 15sec time period from a full stop to race pace. The kinematics of doing reps in the gym don't change. Seems the only ones who don't get it or are pulling a Frank Day (pleading ignorance to concepts that don't match their product marketing) are Personal Trainers and Strength Coaches who make a living suckering in people with this tripe.
 
Enriss said:
...do you find yourself capable of accelerating quickly during races?
Yes
Are you capable of making strong attacks and catching up to riders when they break off?
Yes

When I've been dropped or failed to make the selection it has always been after at least minutes of effort, not in a matter of pedal strokes. I've certainly been gapped after a series of attacks in quick succession and have failed to hang onto a hard sustained pace or even blown up after successfully attacking or jumping the gap only to suffer trying to hold a high pace but I've never lost contact due to a single pure acceleration.

Sure I've been beaten to the line by someone who jumped earlier or jumped from a smarter position (like off my wheel) or someone who was able to accelerate all the way to the line while I faded in the final fifty meters or so. I don't wait till the final 8 pedal strokes to jump so I haven't been beaten in a sprint by five seconds worth of acceleration and invariably it's the hour or more leading up to that sprint that dictated the outcome more than any particular 8 pedal strokes along the way.

I'm just a cat 3 masters racer and my best 5 second power is just over 1200 watts so I don't claim to have the most powerful jump on the planet. Maybe Tony or Velomanct or one of the folks with a really big sprint can put some torque numbers to their race winning efforts but I'm guessing even they don't put out much more than body weight on the pedals when laying down serious sprint power.

So could increased strength lead to faster peak acceleration? Sure it could. Is peak force limited acceleration a problem for most competitive cyclists? Not really. If you do want to increase peak strength does it make more sense to do so in the weight room trying to emulate joint angles, muscle recruitment patterns and technique or on the bike with specificity of both physiology and technique? I'd go for the latter and use standing starts and low speed hill sprints over squats, lunges or leg presses any day.

Doubtful either Fergie or I will dissuade the gym rats and maybe Dancen's right and we shouldn't bother trying to persuade our competition to use their training time better...

-Dave
 
daveryanwyoming said:
Maybe Tony or Velomanct or one of the folks with a really big sprint can put some torque numbers to their race winning efforts but I'm guessing even they don't put out much more than body weight on the pedals when laying down serious sprint power.

Taken from a crit in June, the following numbers when I jumped:

1452w max (1389w 5sec.)
109rpm
48.8k speed
35.1Nm

35.1Nm = ? lb/ft of torque; probably not all that much...
 
tonyzackery said:
Taken from a crit in June, the following numbers when I jumped:

1452w max (1389w 5sec.)
109rpm
48.8k speed
35.1Nm

35.1Nm = ? lb/ft of torque; probably not all that much...
That's gotta be hub torque, not crank torque but working from cadence and speed it looks like your crank torque was ~ 122 Nm.

Assuming 175cm cranks that works out to ~155 pounds per pedal stroke.

-Dave
 
daveryanwyoming said:
That's gotta be hub torque, not crank torque but working from cadence and speed it looks like your crank torque was ~ 122 Nm.

Assuming 175cm cranks that works out to ~155 pounds per pedal stroke.

Angular as well, would need some form of crank with a pedal hooked up to a device that provided resistance. Some type of belt or chain mechanism to a type of flywheel or wheel with padels to transmit the power from the crank to the wheel to take advantage of the resistance to apply the principle of overload (who says I'm a one trick specificity pony). Then because we need to train both legs some type of support so the trainee can push down with both legs at the same time. For comforts sake some type of bar so the trainee can hold on while doing these resistance training exercises. If a gym had such a machine I would join up ASAP! If you had one that could be used in the field it would be even better.
 
Felt_Rider said:
If I sign up for that Lance program will I also get a free shipment of Air?

Just waiting on UCI, IOC and WADA to confirm. Once they found out that 100% of drug cheats, rapists, sex offenders and Gimmickcrank users use Air they want to run it past the Ethics panel and check if it is indeed performance enhancing. I want to assure people that out 40% claim is real and we have stacks of anecdotal evidence to confirm this. Not wanting to resort to celebrity endorsement but we can confirm that the winner of this years Tour's of Italy, France and Spain all used air as part of their performance programme. We can't say just how much it contributed but as claimed we think 40% sounds like a good number to pluck out of the sky.
Will it come Air Mail?
Of course and it does come with a 90 day money back guarantee if you find that "Air" does not work for you.

What is the shipping weight? (as light as air?)
Well to tell the truth your $1149.00 payment gets you a book on how to breath. Shipping weight 250grams. But buy now and you get a free pair of Compression socks.
Will my lungs catch on fire if I use Air? I have heard of burning lungs and I am afraid that might happen with your new product.
We have a crack team of Canadian scientists working on this and can say with 95% confidence that if you lungs spontaneously combust there is a possiblility it may not be O2 that caused or supported the fire.

What if I get a VO2max like Lance.
Once your 40% improvement kicks in Lance will eat your dust!!!

Will I use too much Air?
If you just try "Air" I am sure you will be a fan for life and can store it for future use.
What would it cost me a month to keep supplied?

Just askin' :D
Thank you for your enquiry, we are sure within 2 weeks you will know the difference between "Air" and not using air. Don't believe those biased scientists who found no improvements after 5-6 weeks.
 
fergie said:
The Aussies!!! Ryan Bayley had the highest peak speed of any sprinter which worked for him in Athens but by Beijing Hoy and co had come from the Kilo and could go long and fast and Bayley got smoked. I have the programmes they were on, all focused on peak speed, power and strength. Cycling isn't about peak power or speed. It;s ave power whether it's the 200m TT or the 21 day Tour de France!!! Understand the sport you are making claims about!
I was referring specifically to flyman in my post. You've done plenty to convince me that weight training doesn't influence cycling the way I thought it did.

fergie said:
How hard is it? The kinematics of a standing start change in that 15sec time period from a full stop to race pace. The kinematics of doing reps in the gym don't change.
I was just pointing out that claiming resistance training hurts endurance riders doesn't have any bearing on the claim that accelerating during a race is like doing some number of leg presses. Acceleration is obviously anaerobic, since accelerating past a speed requires a higher power output than riding at that speed. So whether training that anearobic activity should be trained on the bike by brief sprints scattered throughout a long training ride, on a bike through standing starts, or in the gym with weights is maybe a fair question. I'm not convinced that any of these methods should be used to the exclusion of the others.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the kinematics of weight training don't change" though. You've seen olympic lifting, so I know you know that the bar starts out at rest, speeds up, slows down, and then gets lifted again. And I know you've seen how in basically every full range of motion exercise that exists, different muscles contribute to the lift in varying proportions throughout the lift. I can only assume I'm misunderstanding your meaning of kinematics.
 
Enriss said:
I was referring specifically to flyman in my post. You've done plenty to convince me that weight training doesn't influence cycling the way I thought it did.

Just checking. Take home message is people trying to be a little too clever with their training and missing the point of racing. Had it yesterday in Christchurch where many people didn't turn up to racing but went training instead with a big stage race two weeks away and Elite Nationals a week later. Also see it with some who train by power thinking that training at a certain power will convey special benefits.

I was just pointing out that claiming resistance training hurts endurance riders doesn't have any bearing on the claim that accelerating during a race is like doing some number of leg presses. Acceleration is obviously anaerobic, since accelerating past a speed requires a higher power output than riding at that speed. So whether training that anearobic activity should be trained on the bike by brief sprints scattered throughout a long training ride, on a bike through standing starts, or in the gym with weights is maybe a fair question.

Not if you consider the anaerobic demand of road cycling is pretty minimal. Doesn't mean we don't train it but again it is a matter of priority and knowing your sport.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the kinematics of weight training don't change" though. You've seen olympic lifting, so I know you know that the bar starts out at rest, speeds up, slows down, and then gets lifted again. And I know you've seen how in basically every full range of motion exercise that exists, different muscles contribute to the lift in varying proportions throughout the lift. I can only assume I'm misunderstanding your meaning of kinematics.

You may be confusing kinetics (study of what causes movement) with kinematics (study of movement). If someone is doing a set of deadlift the kinematics don't change from rep to rep until fatigue sets in (what would that be Andy the musculostat section of the Central Governor???) even if the kinetics change. On the bike doing a standing start the rider gores from in the saddle from a dead stop to up out moving forward almost assuming a running like position till the cadence is sufficient to sit down and this is while travelling through the bends of a track or the berms of a BMX track before sitting down (not in BMX) and on the track going from bullhorns to and aero bars.
 
So you're comparing multiple reps of a lift to a single "rep" of a standing start? Let's try comparing apples to apples. There are multiple phases to a variety of lifts, and there are multiple phases to the standing start as well.
 
Enriss said:
So you're comparing multiple reps of a lift to a single "rep" of a standing start? Let's try comparing apples to apples. There are multiple phases to a variety of lifts, and there are multiple phases to the standing start as well.

This is a cycling forum so lets stay focused! We are trying to improve as cyclists! Not to have more numbers on our squat totals or keep S&C coaches in business.

Does a Clean and Jerk single rep take the 10-15sec it takes to ride a single rep 125m on an indoor board track?
 
fergie said:
This is a cycling forum so lets stay focused! We are trying to improve as cyclists! Not to have more numbers on our squat totals or keep S&C coaches in business.

Does a Clean and Jerk single rep take the 10-15sec it takes to ride a single rep 125m on an indoor board track?

No, but it's certainly not a movement that involves kinematics that are constant in any way.
 
Enriss said:
No, but it's certainly not a movement that involves kinematics that are constant in any way.

The kinematics of the clean and jerk differ from rep to rep?
 
Enriss said:
Do the kinematics of a standing start change from rep to rep?

No but a bit of a difference in duration between 10-15sec and "the blink of an eye if done properly".
 
daveryanwyoming said:
That's gotta be hub torque, not crank torque but working from cadence and speed it looks like your crank torque was ~ 122 Nm.

Assuming 175cm cranks that works out to ~155 pounds per pedal stroke.

-Dave

I'll copy and paste my best 5 second average power. It was on a 17% grade, starting from about 14mph (I had turned right from a perpendicular side street which was flat, directly onto the 17% grade. Gear was 39x16. (Note that powertap records every 1.26 seconds, so only 4 data points are used for calculating 5 second power).

min in/lbs mph watts miles rpm
31.974 495 14.1 1049 7.741 67
31.995 720 17.1 1849 7.747 88
32.016 634 19.2 1828 7.754 109
32.037 638 20.1 1927 7.761 105
32.058 585 20.6 1806 7.769 108

720 in/lbs in 39x16 equals 1755 in/lbs. 175mm cranks....
so that should equal 255 foot lbs at the pedals, and that was at 88 rpms.

Is 255 lbs really all that much force? And that's at about 30 inches per second velocity.


Remember, I am and look very much like a roadie. No one would ever think I was a gym rat. I'm athletic and 175lbs at 6'2". I perceive my ability to sprint as purely a result of doing it so many times and therefore likely good application of pedaling technique and CNS recruitment.

Edit: Wait, so that 255 ft/lbs is an AVERAGE force throughout the pedal stroke. Would that mean that peak forces could be substantially higher?

My favorite gym workout, which I haven't done since the spring, are 1-leg step-ups on a ~15in high bench. My one rep max was with holding 220lbs, (plus about 130lbs body weight(minus one leg)), so that's 350lbs per leg in a very similar knee extension angle as a standing sprint.

Maybe this gives some insight? I don't know. What I do know is that my sprint numbers go up when I sprint on the bike, not from weights in the gym.

However, I would say that a newbie could likely improve their sprint by doing heavy step ups in the gym, in comparison with sitting on the couch. Add in bike training and it gets very ambiguous.
 
^^^Interesting, and damn powerful. Got any data from an actual sprint in a race?

I ask because I've never done any testing to determine my Max 5s or absolute Max power output. I'd like determine how much a person "loses" on their sprint when fatigued. I guesstimate I'm somewhere in the 1800-1900w range when fresh and on an incline at low rpms...