YourBuddy: Anti-Semite?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fritz Wuehler, Apr 2, 2003.

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  1. tell [email protected] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants on usenet

    Why should we have ties with Israel anyway? They are NOT good allies. They continue to use too much
    force against the Palestinians, exascerbating the conflict. Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the
    release of Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the US for Israel. Good allies dont do that. Not to
    mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea.......

    > Screw Israel, the spying bastards. Its nice that they sell military tech to
    > > China,

    The thing is, why should a superpower do the bidding of a dinky little useless country like Israel?
    They have shown themselves to not be trustworthy allies, what with the Jonathan Pollard affair and
    sales of military technology to China. They receive more US aid than any other country. Do they need
    more aid than, say, a country like Romania? Im not saying I support foreign aid AT ALL. I just want
    to know what makes Israel so special. Why do we allow the Israelis to develop the same WMDs we are
    going to war with Iraq over? I know it sounds extreme, but it seems as though the US backs Israel,
    and does its bidding, regardless of which party is in office. Is it because the Israeli cause is a
    noble one? I kind of doubt it. The US doesnt support apartheid, or at least we didnt in South
    Africa. Why is it OK in Israel? Of course, this presupposes that being Jewish is a race, not a
    religion. Ive heard enough people describe themselves as being "half Jewish" that I assume its a
    race. Therefore, Israel is an apartheid state. The only reason for the United States unwavering
    support for Israel(which only serves to fuel the hatred of the Muslim states) of which I can think
    is the massive amounts of campaign contributions the pro-Israel lobby makes to candidates on both
    sides. Look at what happened to Congressman Moran when he dared to suggest that pro-Israel Jewish
    Americans were exerting influence to push this "war". He has basically been told his political
    career is over, just for speaking the truth.
     
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  2. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Fritz Wuehler <[email protected]> wrote:

    >tell [email protected] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants on usenet
    >
    >Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

    Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
    Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
    the butt".

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  3. Jgb

    Jgb Guest

    Fritz Wuehler <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > tell [email protected] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants on usenet
    >
    > Why should we have ties with Israel anyway? They are NOT good allies. They continue to use too
    > much force against the Palestinians, exascerbating the conflict. Ariel Sharon has been lobbying
    > for the release of Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the US for Israel. Good allies dont do that. Not
    > to mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea......Screw Israel, the
    > spying bastards. Its nice that they sell military tech to China,...<

    Congressional investigations have showm that Israel has sold primarily its OWN technology to China
    and India. In fact, a fair percentage of America's cutting edge technologies inside of many of its
    "Smart" weapons come from Israelis own potent R&D labs. Ask Pentagon experts about some of the stuff
    we've been dropping in Afghanistan and Iraq, who engineered a lot of it.
     
  4. > >Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
    >
    > Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
    > Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
    > the butt".

    You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
    fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
    certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy should
    not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
    involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country which
    has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.

    Peter
     
  5. > Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

    As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
    1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East
    2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
    etc. as you
    3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the shit you've pulled worldwide
    4) We have a large and useful technology sector that could help you
    5) We have the know-how to make your weapons more efficient
    6) We have the innovativeness to give the world numerous inventions: drip irrigation, magnetic
    cards, instant internet communication, etc.

    > They are NOT good allies.

    We are better allies than you are.

    > They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians

    Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
    Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

    > exascerbating the conflict.

    What exacerbates the conflict is when the civilised world makes concessions to terrorists.

    > Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard

    Good thing too. His imprisonment is an embarrassment on the American judicial system.

    > who spied on the US for Israel.

    Pollard saved countless Israeli and numerous American lives.

    > Good allies dont do that.

    All countries spy on their allies, especially you.

    > Not to mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea.......

    What about the US' transfer of military technology to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, and
    China as well.

    > The thing is, why should a superpower do the bidding of a dinky little useless country
    > like Israel?

    They definitely do not. The US has tried to sell Israel up the river numerous times; beginning in
    1956 with the forcing of a withdrawal from Sinai up until today with America calling for "restraint"
    and insisting on a "Road Map" that will only prolong the intifadhah.

    > They have shown themselves to not be trustworthy allies

    You should be showering us with nothing but praise for what we did in 1981 in Usiraq. Can you
    imagine how this war or the last war against Iraq would have been had Saddam had the technology that
    YOU were ready to let him have?

    > They receive more US aid than any other country.

    We use it more efficiently than any other country.

    > Do they need more aid than, say, a country like Romania?

    Again, we use it more efficiently...and we have a better civil rights record and a tradition of
    democracy.

    > I just want to know what makes Israel so special.

    Read the top of my message for a small number of the reasons

    > Why do we allow the Israelis to develop the same WMDs we are going to war with Iraq over?

    7) We are not developing the same WMDs
    8) We would never use the WMDs we do develop unless we needed to, whereas Saddam has shown little
    hesitation to GAS HIS OWN POPULACE!

    > Is it because the Israeli cause is a noble one?

    Yes. The right of a people to live in a safe democracy in their own homeland seems like a pretty
    noble cause to me.

    > The US doesnt support apartheid

    They used to, both in their own country and in South Africa.

    > Why is it OK in Israel?

    Israel is NOT an apartheid state.
    9) In South Africa, Blacks could not vote. In Israel, non-Jews CAN vote.
    10) In South Africa, Blacks had less rights than Whites. In Israel, non-Jews have THE SAME
    rights as Jews.
    11) In South Africa, Blacks only could live in prescribed areas. In Israel, non-Jews are entitled to
    live anywhere they wish.
    12) In South Africa, Blacks could not get an education with Whites. In Israel, non-Jews can get an
    education with Jews if they so choose, and usually do in the case of university.
    13) In South Africa, there was segregation of everything from public walkways to drinking fountains.
    In Israel, no such thing exists.
    14) In South Africa, Blacks could not under any circumstances be treated as Whites. In Israel,
    non-Jews can be treated as Jews if they converted...of course that would do nothing except get
    their children drafted!

    > Of course, this presupposes that being Jewish is a race, not a religion.

    "Jewish" is not a race. Jews are an ETHNIC group, within the Semitic race...the same as the Arabs.

    "Jewish" is not a religion. Judaism is a religion, to which many Jews do not subscribe.

    > Ive heard enough people describe themselves as being "half Jewish" that I > assume its a race.

    A person can be "half-Irish", does that make "Irish" a race?

    > Therefore, Israel is an apartheid state.

    To compare the freedoms that Israeli non-Jews enjoy to the sufferings of the non-Whites in South
    Africa is infinitely insulting to the apartheid experience and the struggle against it.

    > The only reason for the United States unwavering support for Israel

    US support for Israel is unfortunately not unwavering.

    >(which only serves to fuel the hatred of the Muslim states)

    15. Most Muslim states are allies of the US
    16. Many Muslim states are at peace with Israel
    17. Doing the right thing is better than trying to make everyone happy.

    > of which I can think is the massive amounts of campaign contributions the > pro-Israel lobby makes
    > to candidates on both sides.

    What about the massive amounts of campaign contributions the anti-Israel oil companies make to
    candidates on both sides?

    > Look at what happened to Congressman Moran when he dared to suggest that pro-Israel Jewish
    > Americans were exerting influence to push this "war".

    The man was not only being idiotically wrong, he was being extremely racist. Imagine if he said
    something like "The Hispanics and their lobby control our government,"...wouldn't that be racist
    too? How is that any different?

    And besides, why would you defend someone who assaulted an unarmed 8 year old?

    > He has basically been told his political career is over

    Good.

    > just for speaking the truth.

    Jews are just as split on the war as the general public.

    -Yissaskhar
     
  6. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Peter Gardner <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> >Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
    >>
    >> Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
    >> Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
    >> the butt".
    >
    >You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
    >fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
    >certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy
    >should not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
    >involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country which
    >has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.

    All true enough, though I'd argue that Israel is miles ahead of Turkey and Iran in terms of
    democratic process.

    I would HIGHLY recommend seeing the movie 'Secret Ballot' if you want to see some of the challenges
    ahead of fledgling democracies in the region (it's an Iranian movie). Don't rent it if you're in the
    mood for car chases and shootouts - it's s... l.... o... w, but the message and glimpse into Iranian
    democracy is well worth the time (and rental fee).

    It's one of those rare movies that makes you think there just may be hope for the region yet (though
    it's hardly a 'Remember the Titans' feel-good style movie).

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  7. "JGB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Fritz Wuehler <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > tell [email protected] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants
    on usenet
    > >
    > > Why should we have ties with Israel anyway? They are NOT good allies.
    They
    > > continue to use too much force against the Palestinians, exascerbating
    the
    > > conflict. Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the
    > > US for Israel. Good allies dont do that. Not
    to
    > > mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea......Screw Israel, the
    > > spying bastards. Its nice that they sell
    military tech to China,...<
    >
    > Congressional investigations have showm that Israel has sold primarily its OWN technology to China
    > and India.

    We can expect our congressmen to be honest on this issue after they have been bought and payed for
    by special interests that are favorable to Israel. US weapons techonolgy that has been sold by
    Israel to China that has found it's way into things like the Silk Worm cruise missile. Cluster bomb
    technology was sold to Chile by Israel that eventually found it's way to Iraq. Israel continues to
    sell China weapons technology from it's canceled Lavi fighter program. The Lavi fighter program used
    US weapons technology and was funded by the US taxpayer. Even though Israel improves upon the
    technology does not give them the right to sell it to other countries.

    In fact, a fair percentage of
    > America's cutting edge technologies inside of many of its "Smart" weapons come from Israelis own
    > potent R&D labs. Ask Pentagon experts about some of the stuff we've been dropping in Afghanistan
    > and Iraq, who engineered a lot of it.

    You mean like this piece of crap: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/01/10/60II/main147988.shtml

    --
    "Israel is not economically self-sufficient and depends on borrowing to maintain its economy."
    -Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Florida pro-Israeli congresswoman
     
  8. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    | Peter Gardner <[email protected]> wrote:
    |
    |
    |>>>Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
    |>>
    |>>Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
    |>>Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
    |>>the butt".
    |>
    |>You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
    |>fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
    |>certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy
    |>should not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
    |>involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country
    |>which has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.
    |
    |
    | All true enough, though I'd argue that Israel is miles ahead of Turkey and Iran in terms of
    | democratic process.

    That's open for debate...

    This is from what I've heard speaking to someone who was born and raised in the middle east (Egypt).

    START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

    The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
    those... then you're out of luck...

    The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
    privileges.

    END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

    The US News Media is often not a very reliable source of information (I hope you all knew that ;) ).
    Therefore, how things actually are don't get accurately represented on the 6pm news. I'm not saying
    that the above opinion is completely accurate. Rather, the middle ground is most likely where the
    truth lies.

    IMHO, we should give up the unilateral support of Israel and hold them more accountable for their
    transgressions. We should still support them against people who would destroy them, but we shouldn't
    turn a blind eye to their actions.

    george
    - --
    [email protected]
    - --
    http://privon.com
    - --
    "A society without religion is like a vessel without compass."
    - Napoleon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (MingW32) Comment:
    Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

    iD8DBQE+i9J+Nyfm0mDgbJ8RAptGAJ0bLnyctGU99U2ltQCBLKLpwhJe1QCdEg/r KvtW0ZLyERCq630xLQDqDFQ= =rQCc
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  9. W K

    W K Guest

    "George Privon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION
    >
    > The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
    > those... then you're out of luck...
    >
    > The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
    > privileges.
    >
    > END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

    Eh? Its pretty much fact isn't it?
     
  10. W K

    W K Guest

    "Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > > They are NOT good allies.
    >
    > We are better allies than you are.

    Wow, theres a statement.

    Quiz: Who was it this week that described an american pilot as - a cowboy, out having fun, with no
    regard to human life?
     
  11. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region?

    Probably there are other reasons that have to do with politics inside the USA.

    "Democracies" that only treat some people democratically and treat outsiders and neighbors without
    democratic guarantees, I have a difficult time considering them democracies.

    I have a hard time believing that we are a "free" nation when we imprison thousands of people off
    shore and give them no access to legal support.

    Democracy and freedom cannot just be for citizens and/or the chosen. It is a concept that must be
    extended to everyone everywhere.

    Jon Isaacs
     
  12. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >> They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians
    >
    >Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
    >Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

    The old saying is that "Two wrongs don't make a right."

    Yes the US has been guilty over the years of abuses, many abuses. And many citizens of the US are
    disgusted with our history of self-centered manipulative foriegn policy and intervention. If the US
    is indeed the great bastion of freedom and democracy that it claims to be, then behavior like the
    support for the murder of Allende in Chile would just not happen.

    The current issues with Saddam Hussian are just problems with another one of our operatives whom
    went astray.

    But we are a big country so our sphere of influence is large and our abuses large.

    But this does not justify abuses by smaller countries, both are bad.

    Peace does not come from fighting. Peace comes from understanding and forgiveness.

    The middle east is the "cradle of civilization" and has the oldest problems of bickering neighbors.
    This has been going on for thousands of years and will continue until some of the neighbors realize
    that they need to forgive past aggressions and move into the future. Recollecting past aggressions
    and reacting to new ones is an endless chain.

    Compassion, forgiveness and understanding.

    Jon Isaacs
     
  13. Peter Webb

    Peter Webb Guest

    > > Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
    >
    > As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
    > 1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East
    > 2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
    > etc. as you
    > 3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the shit you've pulled worldwide
    > 4) We have a large and useful technology sector that could help you
    > 5) We have the know-how to make your weapons more efficient
    > 6) We have the innovativeness to give the world numerous inventions: drip irrigation, magnetic
    > cards, instant internet communication, etc.
    >

    As an atheist Australian, allow me to add:

    7) The Jews have contributed profoundly to the betterment of the human race, in science, music,
    philosophy, entertainment and many other fields; the world quite clearly "owes them a living".
    They have given us much; lets at least give them a pissy litle patch of desert to call their own.

    8) The Israelis are not the agressors. The Arabs have tried to wipe them off the map from the day
    Israel was proclaimed. If they do some pretty unflamatory things, they have the reality of
    suicide bombers killing their families every day. How would American's feel if Sept 11th happened
    every year, or how would Australia feel about Indonesia if it let a Bali happen every year and
    made no attempt to bring the perpetrators to justice. Israel deserves our support because they
    deserve the right to live in peace.

    9) They took a patch of desert and turned it into a high tech, irrigated, developed and highly
    productive country. They deserve our support because they are good managers and custodians.

    Peter Webb
     
  14. Lysis

    Lysis Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Peter Webb"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> 1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East

    Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

    >> 2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
    >> etc. as you

    Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

    >> 3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the shit you've pulled worldwide

    Because Israel has often been an accomplice. Not to mention that it is an apartheid state, in many
    aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

    >of the human race, in science, music, philosophy, entertainment

    You mean Karl Marx?
     
  15. Omega

    Omega Guest

    "lysis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, "Peter Webb"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >> 1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East
    >
    > Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

    1) Wrong, as usual.

    2) Apartheid would still exist in SA if it were not for the US sanctions.
     
  16. Omega

    Omega Guest

  17. In rec.bicycles.misc W K <[email protected]> wrote:
    : Quiz: Who was it this week that described an american pilot as - a cowboy, out having fun, with no
    : regard to human life?

    an english tank commander after an A-10 pilot shot at him .. twice. with a few 12 year old kids
    around, iirc. that was on either the bbc or the economist.
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  18. "W K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "George Privon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION
    > >
    > > The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
    > > those... then you're out of luck...
    > >
    > > The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
    > > privileges.
    > >
    > > END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION
    >
    > Eh? Its pretty much fact isn't it?

    Well, I don't have first hand experience. So I didn't want to make an absolute statement.

    george
     
  19. In article <[email protected]>, Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion wrote:

    >> Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
    >
    > As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
    > 1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East

    Although it appears Israeli Arabs are still second-class citizens. In a recent election Sharon's
    government tried to have two Arab Knesset candidates removed from the ballot. That this was
    unsuccessful is to Israel's credit, however.

    > 3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the shit you've pulled worldwide

    Of course. To do so would instantly cut off the billions of dollars of aid Israel receives from the
    US each year.

    >> They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians
    >
    > Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
    > Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

    And I suspect that our present adventure in Iraq will eventually turn into the kind of violent
    stand-off Israel has with the occupied terrirtoies.

    >> Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard
    >
    > Good thing too. His imprisonment is an embarrassment on the American judicial system.

    Tell ya what... Maybe we can trade. You can have Pollard and we'll put Sharon in jail in his place.
    Sabbra and Shatila ring a bell?

    >> Why do we allow the Israelis to develop the same WMDs we are going to war with Iraq over?
    >
    > 1) We are not developing the same WMDs

    No. Israel has a known, established nuclear program while Iraq does not.

    > 2) We would never use the WMDs we do develop unless we needed to, whereas Saddam has shown little
    > hesitation to GAS HIS OWN POPULACE!

    Using our money abd weapons, no less! I wonder where all these self-righteous war-mongers were in
    the early 1980's when the US left was protesting President Reagan's decision to fund Saddam?

    >> Is it because the Israeli cause is a noble one?
    >
    > Yes. The right of a people to live in a safe democracy in their own homeland seems like a pretty
    > noble cause to me.

    Agreed, and I'm sure the Palestinians feel the same way!

    > Israel is NOT an apartheid state.
    > 1) In South Africa, Blacks could not vote. In Israel, non-Jews CAN vote.
    > 2) In South Africa, Blacks had less rights than Whites. In Israel, non-Jews have THE SAME rights
    > as Jews.

    Except in the occupied territiories, where you can be randomly shot and/or have your
    home/farm/business bombed or bulldozed out of existence.

    > 3) In South Africa, Blacks only could live in prescribed areas. In Israel, non-Jews are entitled
    > to live anywhere they wish.

    Except in the occupied territories, where curfews and travel restrictions last for months.

    > 4) In South Africa, Blacks could not get an education with Whites. In Israel, non-Jews can get an
    > education with Jews if they so choose, and usually do in the case of university.

    Except in the occupied territories, where you're lucky to get a few weeks of school any given year
    before they are closed and/or destroyed again.

    > And besides, why would you defend someone who assaulted an unarmed 8 year old?
    >
    >> He has basically been told his political career is over
    >
    > Good.

    So was Sharon after Sabbra/Shatila but look where he is now...

    --

    -John ([email protected])
     
  20. Lysis

    Lysis Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:

    >an english tank commander after an A-10 pilot shot at him .. twice. with a few 12 year old kids
    >around, iirc. that was on either the bbc or the economist.

    He must have been on drugs: either amphetamine or nandrolone (or both).
     
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