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UK and Europe
Published
3 January 2007
Last activity
20 January 2007
Original author
Doki
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389
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    Go and look at the figures on road deaths and their causes (here's a hint -
    12% of road deaths have exceeding the speed limit as a cause), go and look
    at the numbers of road deaths VS murders and manslaughters, and go and look
    at the numbers of Police forces who've cut their traffic divisions down to
    the bare minimum so that they can just about fulfil their statutory
    obligations to patrol the motorways since speed cameras have been
    introduced.


    Then consider the possibility that the reduction in traffic policing may
    not have been brought about by the increased deployment of speed
    cameras.

  2. "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    For christ's sake. Three times as many people die on the roads as are
    murdered. 12% of deadly accidents are caused by exceeding the speed
    limit - 17% are caused by the speed being too high for the conditions. In
    other words, there are plenty of roads with a 60 limit that is perfectly
    appropriate, but you can kill yourself and others doing less. Or to put
    things another way, speed cameras miss 88% of the causes of road deaths.

    Speed is easy to police in terms of law breaking. Murders aren't easy to
    solve. Hence I have no problem with speed cameras being used to police those
    who break speed limits as it frees officers to solve those difficult
    murders, for example. And if you read my post again you'll see I've already
    acknowledged that excessive speed is not the only problem, but it is one
    part that can be easily covered in part by cameras. Again - another reaon I
    have nada problem with speed cameras. You also seem to imply that it's only
    breaking the speed limit is a proble. I'm well aware that the speed limit is
    just that, a limit. Too many treat it as a target or a minimum speed. Speed
    limits are a blunt object but there are the best tool we have at helping
    stop it being a free-for-all out there. And yes, policing is not perfect,
    but as I said in my original post, police resources are finite, yet another
    reason I have no problem with speed cameras being used to catch some of
    those breaking the limits. And let's face it, the reality is that it's a
    tiny, tiny part of the road system that's covered by speed cameras, so
    again, I have no time for those whinging if they are caught out.

    Quoted message said:


    People would be up in arms if Police forces decided to dissolve their
    murder squads and replace them with gun spotting cameras when most murders
    are committed by people with kitchen knives, but cutting traffic policing
    and replacing it with cameras that miss most of the causes of road deaths
    is fine and dandy.


    No, speed cameras do not solve anything in total, but they are a tool in
    policing part of the problem. Learning to drive within the speed limit is a
    part of driving safely we all had to be able to demonstrate competence in
    order to obtain our driving licences. This is not something new, it's been a
    part of learning to drive safely and competently for a long time.

    No where have I even suggested that I think all traffic police should be
    replaced by cameras as it's only excessive speed which is a problem, just as
    nowhere have I said that excessive speed is the only problem. What I have
    said is that I have no problems with speed cameras. They are a tool, nothing
    more, in part of policing. What I find laughable is the whinging of those
    caught out by speed cameras and bleating on about how they are a stealth tax
    on the law-abiding, put-upon, mailgned motorist. Bollox. The easiest way to
    legally avoid paying the so-called tax is to drive competently and safely
    and that's at a speed below the speed limit, amongst other things.

  3. On 01/04/2007 10:10:31 Peter Clinch said:

    Buck wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On 01/03/2007 22:35:08 "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be some
    sort of walking paradox 😉.

    Quoted message said:

    Not really, no shortage of people like that, because many/most people in
    the UK seem to work happily with the paradox that speeding isn't a problem
    and it's okay to do it (unless you get caught, which is a nuisance but
    nothing more). I used to be like that, a change in driving attitudes and
    speed cameras no longer bother me, because since I keep inside limits
    they're irrelevant to me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Actually you are part of the majority, this place occupies many of the
    noisy but impetent minority.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess any group of "impetent" people will be a minority, since
    "impetent" is not a word. If you want to make pithy criticisms of the
    locals to show how superior you are then turning on your spell checker
    would probably help...

    Quoted message said:

    Pete.

    I'm not interested in being superior, I leave that to pedants like you.

    --

    Buck

    I would rather be out on my Catrike

    http://www.catrike.co.uk

  4. On 01/04/2007 10:50:25 Tony Raven said:

    Buck wrote on 04/01/2007 09:56 +0100:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Actually you are part of the majority, this place occupies many of the
    noisy but impetent minority.

    Quoted message said:

    So "impetent" in fact that speed cameras are increasing in numbers not
    decreasing as your "majority" would wish.

    They are a good money maker and another excuse for Police to stay indoors.

    --

    Buck

    I would rather be out on my Catrike

    http://www.catrike.co.uk

  5. "vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    What are the chances of people turning over a new leaf and the anti
    cyclist loons and anti car cyclist loons calming down are? A bit of
    sanity on both sides would help debate IMO.

    Not until hell freezes over or Paul Smith becomes an advocate for
    speed/safety cameras......

    Speed cameras do not help road safety.

    Alan

    Quoted message said:


  6. "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be some
    sort of walking paradox 😉.

    I cycle, drive and walk and I have no problems at all with speed cameras.
    Indeed, I'd have no problem if there were lots more of them or if they are
    'hidden' ones.

    I would like to see more warning devices, which tell you to go slower,
    rather than speed cameras which do not promote safety.

    Alan

    Quoted message said:


  7. "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "squeaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    wafflycat wrote:
    > I cycle, drive and walk and I have no problems at all with speed
    > cameras.
    > Indeed, I'd have no problem if there were lots more of them or if they
    > are
    > 'hidden' ones.
    Me too. Exceeding speed limit = breaking the law.

    Indeed. I bet a hell of a lot of people on here have ridden or ride bikes
    that aren't strictly road legal on the road. That = breaking the law.

    Indeed people break laws all the time, intentionally or unintentionally.
    One factor to consider, IMO, in whether a law is important enough to merit
    a lot of enforcement, is the possibility of harm to others if the law is
    broken. Speed limits are there for a reason: safety, and in particular
    safety to third parties. The risk of serious harm and death to third
    parties is a very real one when those of us who drive cars. This is not to
    say that excessive speed is the only danger on the roads, but it is a very
    real one and deserves to be monitored closely. As police resources are
    finite, I have no problem whatsoever when monitoring of speed is done by
    camera as this means plod can be doing something else that is also
    important but more complex to so. Adhering to speed limits is an
    important, yet basic, skill we all had to master in order to pass our
    driving tests. Something that appals me is the number of drivers who seem
    to think that the speed limit is there to be ignored and exceeded whenever
    possible. If I ever get done for speeding, then there's no-one to blame
    but me, as it means that I've not been paying enough attention to my
    driving methods and I'd hope I'd have the grace to accept the penalty and
    not whinge about it like so many seem to do in the absurd bleating about
    speed cameras being a stealth tax on the poor, put-upon British motorist.

    If they were accurate, and had been set up by the police, and the police
    were responsible for the trip points at which the cameras were activated,
    then I would agree, but none of them are calibrated, and they are 'serviced'
    by an employee of the manufatcurers and the pplice have no idea what the
    settings are.

    The only ones I would not challenge are the hand held radar devices, as they
    are calibrated at the start and end of every use.

    Alan

    Quoted message said:


  8. "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    For christ's sake. Three times as many people die on the roads as are
    murdered. 12% of deadly accidents are caused by exceeding the speed
    limit - 17% are caused by the speed being too high for the conditions. In
    other words, there are plenty of roads with a 60 limit that is perfectly
    appropriate, but you can kill yourself and others doing less. Or to put
    things another way, speed cameras miss 88% of the causes of road deaths.

    So why don't the police use devices to warn you that you are exceeding the
    limit, rather than just use money making devices.

    In Surrey, it is rare to see people exceeding the limit, as if you do, a
    device it activated to tell you that you are over the limit, so you slow
    down.

    Alan

  9. "Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    Go and look at the figures on road deaths and their causes (here's a
    hint -
    12% of road deaths have exceeding the speed limit as a cause), go and
    look
    at the numbers of road deaths VS murders and manslaughters, and go and
    look
    at the numbers of Police forces who've cut their traffic divisions down
    to
    the bare minimum so that they can just about fulfil their statutory
    obligations to patrol the motorways since speed cameras have been
    introduced.


    Then consider the possibility that the reduction in traffic policing may
    not have been brought about by the increased deployment of speed
    cameras.

    This afternoon I passed a white van on the centre lane of a motorway, where
    the left hand lane was completely empty, he was concentrating on using a
    mobile phone, how will an increase in speed cameras solve that problem?

  10. "Will Cove" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be
    some sort of walking paradox 😉.

    You are not alone.

    Too true!

  11. "Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Buck said:

    On 01/03/2007 22:35:08 "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be some
    sort of walking paradox 😉.

    Not really, no shortage of people like that, because many/most people in
    the UK seem to work happily with the paradox that speeding isn't a problem
    and it's okay to do it (unless you get caught, which is a nuisance but
    nothing more). I used to be like that, a change in driving attitudes and
    speed cameras no longer bother me, because since I keep inside limits
    they're irrelevant to me.

    Quoted message said:

    Actually you are part of the majority, this place occupies many of the
    noisy but impetent minority.

    I guess any group of "impetent" people will be a minority, since
    "impetent" is not a word. If you want to make pithy criticisms of the
    locals to show how superior you are then turning on your spell checker
    would probably help...

    You could try being a little less pompous.

    Quoted message said:


    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    So why don't the police use devices to warn you that you are exceeding the
    limit, rather than just use money making devices.


    Presumably for the same reason they prosecute burglars (for breaking the
    law), rather than put signs in houses that say "Stopping nicking stuff"

    --
    Colin

    Coincidence is the alibi of the Gods

    (remove FOOT to reply)

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    "Stopping nicking stuff" ??????

    Sorry - should have read "Stop Nicking Stuff", but I sure you worked
    that out.

    --
    Colin

    Coincidence is the alibi of the Gods

    (remove FOOT to reply)

  14. wafflycat said:

    "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be some
    sort of walking paradox 😉.

    I cycle, drive and walk and I have no problems at all with speed cameras.
    Indeed, I'd have no problem if there were lots more of them or if they are
    'hidden' ones.

    How do you (and others) think that cameras could be hidden? How do you
    propose that "hidden" cameras stay hidden, even from locals? What do you
    think the effects would be of only locals knowing the whereabouts of
    cameras and other not?

    --
    Mike
    Van Tuyl titanium Dura Ace 10
    Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
    Raleigh Record Sprint mongrel

  15. Peter Clinch said:
    Buck said:

    On 01/03/2007 22:35:08 "Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I cycle, drive and walk, and I don't like speed cameras. I must be some
    sort of walking paradox 😉.

    Not really, no shortage of people like that, because many/most people in
    the UK seem to work happily with the paradox that speeding isn't a
    problem and it's okay to do it (unless you get caught, which is a
    nuisance but nothing more). I used to be like that, a change in driving
    attitudes and speed cameras no longer bother me, because since I keep
    inside limits they're irrelevant to me.

    Quoted message said:

    Actually you are part of the majority, this place occupies many of the
    noisy but impetent minority.

    I guess any group of "impetent" people will be a minority, since
    "impetent" is not a word. If you want to make pithy criticisms of the
    locals to show how superior you are then turning on your spell checker
    would probably help...

    Pete.

    Good grief, a spelling flame. How quaint.
    "Life's too short to proof-read usenet".

    --
    Mike
    Van Tuyl titanium Dura Ace 10
    Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
    Raleigh Record Sprint mongrel

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, Alan Holmes
    says...

    Quoted message said:


    In Surrey, it is rare to see people exceeding the limit, as if you do, a
    device it activated to tell you that you are over the limit, so you slow
    down.

    Alan


    I don't know which part of Surrey you're in but around here (Tadworth)
    these devices seem to be activated all the time indicating that lots of
    people are exceeding the limit. Most (but not all) slow down but I
    wouldn't mind betting that the effect soon wears off.

    Steve

  17. Alan Holmes said:

    So why don't the police use devices to warn you that you are exceeding the
    limit, rather than just use money making devices.

    Why, when cars are already fitted with such devices?

    John B

  18. John B said:
    Quoted message said:


    Cycling through Hook (nr Basingstoke) this morning I noticed a mobile speed
    camera van parked ahead. The next thing i heard was the rapid screeching of
    brakes behind me as motorists also saw it and slammed on the anchors.

    Was that by the railway bridge, on the road that goes round the business
    park (Bartley Way)? It always used to be a popular spot for the
    cameras, and it appeared quite lucrative.

  19. wafflycat said:

    One factor to consider, IMO, in whether a law is important enough to
    merit a lot of enforcement, is the possibility of harm to others if the
    law is broken. Speed limits are there for a reason: safety, and in
    particular safety to third parties. The risk of serious harm and death
    to third parties is a very real one when those of us who drive cars.

    Up to a point, but speed limits are also easy to enforce with cameras,
    whereas other types of lawbreaking are more subtle. I would be inclined
    to question whether the obsession with speed is entirely relevant,
    especially given that most complaints of bad driving recorded here
    happen at low speeds.

    Not everything that can be counted counts; and not everything that
    counts can be counted. (Einstein).

  20. David Damerell said:

    Quoting Doki <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Regardless or not of whether you agree with the idea of speed cameras and
    strict enforcement of speed limits, do you not agree that in many areas the
    presensce of speed cameras has become the only form of traffic policing,
    which isn't a great idea?

    I suspect we are approaching the fascinating idiocy where it is claimed
    both that speed cameras are revenue-raising exercises and that they divert
    police effort from other enforcement.

    That doesn't follow at all.

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