Ziegler's 4:33 in the 500 free

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by [email protected] (Larry Weisenthal), Feb 28, 2006.



  1. diablo

    diablo Guest

  2. Man o' Tea

    Man o' Tea Guest

    "Georgetown Prep continued its recent domination
    by winning its third straight Metros boys' title, ..."

    Always nice to read that the alma mater is doing well.

    My coworker was at the meet. Her son won the 100
    Breast, lowering his PB about a second, and took
    second in the 200 IM, lowering his PB almost 2.5
    seconds. Must have been a fast pool.
     
  3. Speculating...

    If memory serves, USA Swimming is awarding $1,000,000 to the female
    swimmer who breaks Janet Evans' WR in the 800, while winning a gold
    medal at the Olympics.

    This brings to mind the situation of Sergei Bubka, Soviet-era pole
    vaulter. Here's a quote cribbed from some website, the URL I neglected
    to copy:

    >>Besides his six consecutive world titles he was Olympic champion in 1988 and set 35 world records. He has the 23 highest vaults, his records standing at 6.15 metres indoors (20ft 2in) and 6.14m outdoors. The next best is Maksim Tarasov's 6.05m. Bubka is such a hero in Donetsk that a statue has been erected in his honour.


    >>In 1991 perestroika freed him and Bubka was among the first athletes from the Eastern bloc to make a good living out of the sport. Almost always he improved his world record by a centimetre at a time, just enough to pocket a bonus from the sponsors and increase his appearance fee for future meetings.


    Basically, the precedent is an athlete who has the chance of destroying
    a WR at will, but who holds back until there is a big enough payout.

    So does Ziegler break the 800 WR prior to 2008 for "free," or does she
    hold back and wait until it would be worth a cool mil?

    Or does she just start smashing WRs at once, and establish a
    Hackett-esque endorsement value profile, viewing the mil as chump
    change?

    Quite a talent.
     
  4. Silver0l

    Silver0l Guest

    <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email protected]...

    > Quite a talent.


    Come on. If you want to be serious, you have to compare real events.
    500 yard free doesn't mean anything outside the USA. Nobody tries to beat
    such a record.
    Laure Manaudou is still a much better swimmer, on real distances, like the
    400m or 800m.
    Melbourne in March 07 will be interesting...

    -- Olivier
     
  5. Silver0l wrote:

    > Come on. If you want to be serious, you have to compare real events.
    > 500 yard free doesn't mean anything outside the USA. Nobody tries to beat
    > such a record.


    I don't blame you for not understanding the significance of Ziegler's
    swim. Ziegler has already shown that she is much more than a short
    course swimmer. In fact, she won the world championships in the 1500
    long course in 16:00, which is one of the fastest times in history.
    She also beat all of the top Europeans at that meet in the 800, winning
    gold.

    What is important is this: she just broke an 18 year old record held by
    Janet Evans by 4 SECONDS. For only 500 yards! The 500 is not some
    obscure event; it is swum at all American swimming championship meets.
    All of the great American distance swimmers have swum this event
    hundreds of times in their careers. Yes, it is true that Europeans
    (save for the not inconsiderable number who have attended American
    universities) don't swim the 500 yard freestyle. But it is also true
    that American women have consistently been among the top distance
    swimmers in the world since almost the beginning of time, swimming
    wise, and certainly since Evans. No one has gotten close to Evans,
    much less Ziegler; so that shows that Ziegler has blazing speed, as
    well as the ability to go the distance.

    > Laure Manaudou is still a much better swimmer, on real distances, like the
    > 400m or 800m.


    Perhaps yes. Perhaps no.

    > Melbourne in March 07 will be interesting...


    Agreed.

    - Larry W
     
  6. Silver0l

    Silver0l Guest

    <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email protected]...

    > But it is also true
    > that American women have consistently been among the top distance
    > swimmers in the world since almost the beginning of time, swimming
    > wise, and certainly since Evans. No one has gotten close to Evans,
    > much less Ziegler; so that shows that Ziegler has blazing speed, as
    > well as the ability to go the distance.
    >
    >> Laure Manaudou is still a much better swimmer, on real distances, like
    >> the
    >> 400m or 800m.

    >
    > Perhaps yes. Perhaps no.
    >


    Laure Manaudou holds the world record for 400 / 800 / 1500 SCM
    Janett Evans holds the world record for 400 / 800 / 1500 LCM

    Still waiting for K. Ziegler...

    -- Olivier
     
  7. >>Laure Manaudou holds the world record for 400 / 800 / 1500 SCM <<

    Yes, but I need to remind you of something:

    Firstly, since Janet Evans, if you take the world's top 10 female
    distance swimmers, more than half of them were/are American.

    You scoff at the 500, saying that only Americans swim that.

    Yet I could turn it around. American women (again more than half of
    the world's best) have never trained for short course meters and have
    seldom swum short course meters. Evans herself never trained for short
    course meters and virtually never swam this.

    You want to say that short course yards records don't count? Because
    Europeans don't swim it? I'll turn it around and say that short course
    meters records don't count, because Americans don't train for it and
    virtually never swim it.

    So what counts is long course meters.

    The score is:

    Manaudou ZERO
    Ziegler ZERO

    And, yes, Melbourne will be very interesting.
     
  8. OK, thinking about this yet longer.

    To my knowledge, Janet Evans never held a single short course meters
    world record. There is no doubt that she was a great short course
    swimmer, as evidenced by the fact that she still holds the short course
    (yards) record for the 1650 (a standard US indoor distance, always swum
    at all championship meets, at all levels) and held the records in the
    500 and 1000 until they were broken by Ziegler.

    Arguably, the women's distance records in short course meters were
    softer than were the records in short course yards, as the greatest
    women's distance swimmers (until Manaudou and Ziegler) always trained
    for and swam short course yards, but not so for short course meters.

    Had Evans actually trained for, tapered for, and raced short course
    meters, there is no doubt that she'd have set the WR in those events,
    as well. Had that been the case, it is highly plausible that Manaudou
    would hold ZERO short course WR, which is to say NO WR.

    Stated another way: There is no argument whatsoever that Evans was the
    greatest women's distance swimmer of all time. Yet Ziegler has now
    broken all of Evans' short course records. Manaudou, in contrast,
    broke only records set by lesser swimmers than Evans.

    Interest in Melbourne will continue to rise.

    - Larry
     
  9. >>Yet Ziegler has now
    broken all of Evans' short course records. << **

    **save for the 1650
     
  10. Martin Smith

    Martin Smith Guest

    "[email protected] (Larry Weisenthal)" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>>Laure Manaudou holds the world record for 400 / 800 / 1500 SCM <<

    >
    >Yes, but I need to remind you of something:
    >
    >Firstly, since Janet Evans, if you take the world's top 10 female
    >distance swimmers, more than half of them were/are American.
    >
    >You scoff at the 500, saying that only Americans swim that.
    >
    >Yet I could turn it around. American women (again more than half of
    >the world's best) have never trained for short course meters and have
    >seldom swum short course meters. Evans herself never trained for short
    >course meters and virtually never swam this.


    There are some short course meters pools in America, Larry. My high
    school and university in Tacoma, WA each have one. We trained short
    course meters quite often.

    >You want to say that short course yards records don't count? Because
    >Europeans don't swim it? I'll turn it around and say that short course
    >meters records don't count, because Americans don't train for it and
    >virtually never swim it.
    >
    >So what counts is long course meters.
    >
    >The score is:
    >
    >Manaudou ZERO
    >Ziegler ZERO
    >
    >And, yes, Melbourne will be very interesting.
     
  11. Silver0l

    Silver0l Guest

    <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email protected]...
    > People can argue records forever. But at some point, to be great, the
    > swimmer has to get on the blocks at the Olympic finals and beat the
    > field. Manaudou has done that, but Ziegler has not. Ziegler had a
    > great swim at a National meet. But she's got to beat the World's beat
    > on the biggest stage to start building a foundation as one of the great
    > female distance swimmers.



    Just read yesterday an article in L'Equipe (Larry will surely remember this
    newspaper!).

    This was an interview of Lucas, Manaudou's coach (he is considered a wild
    guy in the french swimming community, always fighting against federal
    swimming authorities...).

    First he explains why Laure will not go to Shangai:
    - this year's focus is on French Championship (middle-May) and European
    Championship (in Budapest)
    - he fears that she would catch some kind of virus over there: "j'avais peur
    qu'elle chope une "saloperie" là-bas, un virus ou je ne sais quoi"... (???)

    And a quick translation of what he says about Ziegler:

    "Sometime, I would like to see Laure swim against men. She needs to fight,
    and sometimes the fight is missing. This is the reason why I would have
    loved to see her swim in Shangai, to swim against this little american,
    Ziegler. This girl can break the 800 SCM world record of Laure. But against
    her, Laure would swim even faster".

    We can argue forever about the value or relative softness of such or such
    record, but like Eric said: "at some point, to be great, the swimmer has to
    get on the blocks at the Olympic finals and beat the field".

    -- Olivier

    PS: in the same article, they mention that Bousquet cannot do the World in
    Shangai. His shoulder has become much too painful, despite ice and rest. He
    will soon have extensive examination. Another victim of the infamous swimmer
    shoulder?
     
  12. >>We can argue forever about the value or relative softness of such or such
    record, but like Eric said: "at some point, to be great, the swimmer
    has to
    get on the blocks at the Olympic finals and beat the field". <<

    Truly, thanks for jumping in and arguing with me about this (and other)
    stuff. It's great fun and it truly fuels interest in the sport. I'm
    pretty certain that you and I are going to be looking forward to the
    first meeting between Manaudou and Ziegler with great anticipation and
    one of us will have the formidable challenge of making excuses for our
    favorite after the race.

    ....can't wait!
     
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