Zipp 303 v 404: weight v aero

[grahamspringett]

I'm a 145lb rider looking for a good aero racing wheel which I can use for weekend burn-ups with club mates and I'd love to hear of opinions of Zipp's 303 and 404 wheels.

I won't be using the wheels during the week, just at weekends. I also want clinchers. I can't be doing with tubs any more.

Most of the racing and riding I do is over flat to rolling terrain but I intend to enter a stage race later this year which takes in a 32km mountain on the last day.

Now, I would imagine the 404s would be a good bet, but the 303s interest me because of their lower weight. Does a 404 give away more in weight than it gains in speed, or does a 303 give away more in speed than it gains in weight loss advantage?

In other words, which would I notice more: a more aero (deeper) wheel or a lighter wheel?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...In other words, which would I notice more: a more aero (deeper) wheel or a lighter wheel?

If you only ride steep uphill climbs the 303s will have a bit of an advantage, but if you ride a lot of flats and rolling courses the 404s have a pretty big advantage.

404s are really nice wheels and not all that heavy, but they can sometimes get pushed around a bit in gusty crosswinds, it's never been a big problem but has been noticable. It got kinda spooky during a few windy races when riding fast echelons, no fun having your front end pushed sideways when riding heavy overlap with other racers.

Tough call for general purpose go fast wheels. I'll ride my 404s during flatter events if I don't expect really windy conditions and ride American Classic 420s on windy days and for races with sustained steep climbs. The 420s are a great wheelset that are very light, have a nice deep aero cross section and are much less expensive than the Zipps.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[parawolf]

Alternative is to get the set of Zipp 343, 303 front and 404 rear.

 

[alienator]

The first two answers sum things up fairly well. Don't get trapped in the mindset that wheel weight makes a huge difference on climbs. When the road grade goes beyond 8-10%, wheel weight starts to dominate, and aero influence falls behind wheel weight. However, that only happens because at those grades your speed drops way off, therefore the aero influence drops off.

I doubt you'd see a huge difference, if any at all, between 404's and 303's on a climb. As has already been said, descending big climbs with deep rims can be tricky, maybe even spooky, with the gusty winds typically found in the mountains.

 

[michelbrazeau]

I would choose the 404. I have raced flat and hilly courses with them. You won't notice the difference in the hills, but when riding fast, the deeper the rim, the faster it will be. The 404 is a great all purpose wheel.

Michel
http://www.freetrainingplan.com

I'm a 145lb rider looking for a good aero racing wheel which I can use for weekend burn-ups with club mates and I'd love to hear of opinions of Zipp's 303 and 404 wheels.

I won't be using the wheels during the week, just at weekends. I also want clinchers. I can't be doing with tubs any more.

Most of the racing and riding I do is over flat to rolling terrain but I intend to enter a stage race later this year which takes in a 32km mountain on the last day.

Now, I would imagine the 404s would be a good bet, but the 303s interest me because of their lower weight. Does a 404 give away more in weight than it gains in speed, or does a 303 give away more in speed than it gains in weight loss advantage?

In other words, which would I notice more: a more aero (deeper) wheel or a lighter wheel?

 

[JTE83]

I have Campy 404 clinchers from ebay $1030 shipped. Don't use Velox rim tape; RoxUSA Ultralight rim tape from Performance Bike is best, carry a spare set in case a flat fix messes up the rim tape. The Zipp valve extenders suck too! Best tubes to get are the Vresdestein 80mm long valves; best deal for 6 at CBike.com!

But now isn't the 1080 better than a 404? I just can't have the best anymore!

 

[alienator]

Velox tape: it's reliable; it's proven; it lasts a very long time, and it's dead cheap.

Rox ****: it tends to move all over the place; it's possible for spoke holes to cut it; to get any protection or life out of it, you need to use twice what they give you; it's way expensive as far as rim tapes go. For half the price you can get fiber reinforced packing tape which is likely stronger than Rox Ultralight.

 

[JTE83]

Velox tape: it's reliable; it's proven; it lasts a very long time, and it's dead cheap.

Rox ****: it tends to move all over the place; it's possible for spoke holes to cut it; to get any protection or life out of it, you need to use twice what they give you; it's way expensive as far as rim tapes go. For half the price you can get fiber reinforced packing tape which is likely stronger than Rox Ultralight.

Alienator has argued about this in one of my previous threads. But he doesn't speak with experience because he doesn't ride Zipp 404's or has ever put Velox rim tape on them. I went to Mission Bay in Chicago and asked what rim tape they use for Zipps, they said Velox and I bought it for $10. When I tried putting it on it wouldn't hold. When I put tubes and tires on it went off center inside and blew my tube. Velox is not good for Zipps! Really, the Rox is best! Rox doesn't move on Zipps - how would Alienator know?

 

[alienator]

Alienator has argued about this in one of my previous threads. But he doesn't speak with experience because he doesn't ride Zipp 404's or has ever put Velox rim tape on them. I went to Mission Bay in Chicago and asked what rim tape they use for Zipps, they said Velox and I bought it for $10. When I tried putting it on it wouldn't hold. When I put tubes and tires on it went off center inside and blew my tube. Velox is not good for Zipps! Really, the Rox is best! Rox doesn't move on Zipps - how would Alienator know?

Because I've used Rox on alloy rims, and it didn't work. I've heard the same from plenty of others and friends. I'll gladly choose their opinions over your N=1 attempt. You'd think some buff engineer as yourself would understand all about one time trials. Hmmmmmm. Where is that JTE83 knowledge that he soaked up at the claimed 6th best engineering school? Hmmmm.

Velox had an issue, for a short time, with an adhesive. That was resolved. Velox also has a few decades of proven experience, whereas Rox has yet to prove themselves in anyway. I've also used Velox on CF clinchers. Guess what? It stayed centered and worked perfectly. The likelihood of Zipp rims having something special in it's surface treatment of CF that repels Velox is likely very close to zero.

Not good for Zipps is a stupid blanket statement. How do you know that you even used the right width of Velox or even applied it correctly? After all, it's not like you've actually shown any knowledge of how to work on bike stuff.

 

[JTE83]

I bought my Velox at Mission Bay, best Chicago bike store for Cervelo and Zipp. They should have given me the exact right sized Velox for my Zipp 404's when they sell lots of them.

I'll never use Velox on any other rim. The adhesive sucked, or maybe I got a bad one but maybe not.

Then the OP should try both Velox and Rox to see what's best. He'll only lose $10 for Velox or $7 for Rox.

 

[alienator]

I bought my Velox at Mission Bay, best Chicago bike store for Cervelo and Zipp. They should have given me the exact right sized Velox for my Zipp 404's when they sell lots of them.

I'll never use Velox on any other rim. The adhesive sucked, or maybe I got a bad one but maybe not.

Then the OP should try both Velox and Rox to see what's best. He'll only lose $10 for Velox or $7 for Rox.

Man, they saw you coming if you actually paid $10 for Velox. I pay about $3.

Here's a hint: being the great bike owner that you are, you might try taking a bit of advanced knowledge into a store when you buy something. Example: there's this thing called a tape measure with which you can measure the width of a rim. Couple that with the fact that Velox comes in these things called "sizes," and you'll have the knowledge necessary to safely buy Velox.

I guess they were right about that sucker that's born everyday.

 

[JTE83]

I said $10 but that maybe a poor memory of what I paid for it like 1.8 years ago! But when I tell them give me the Velox for Zipp 404's this expert bike shop should have given me the right one!

I have no need to buy anymore road bike gear. I'd like to increase my Vintage 80's Freestyle classic bmx bike collection, but I can't do this when I do contract jobs around the nation!