zipp 404 or 808 sl

[zaskar]

Anyone here have insight on the zipp wheel SL hub build? would the Zipp 404 or 808 be a good wheel for training on and race? im 140lbs and ride around 10k miles a season. im trying to decide to go with the power tap SL or a SRM pro, the one before the Dura Ace crank. or any other suggestions on a good strong light wheel, and the pros and cons between the SRm and Powertap sl besides the price.

 

[MikeHains]

I have a PT in a Mavic Open Pro, and a PT in a Zipp 808.

I love my 808's. Love 'em. But I wouldn't train on them.

I've read about side-winds, and thought this was all humbug (I couldn't feel them on the first few races on the 808's). A few months ago I was descending a mountain road a few months ago, at around 72kph (45mph) - and got hit with cross winds through breaks in the trees. That was fun !

Then a few weeks ago I was racing (pairs TT) on a quiet but open road, and a Semi+trailer went passed. I got sucked several feet sideways, and had the ... scared out of me.

The 808's are rideable, but the do squirm with cross winds (no doubt about it). Having said that, they are unbelievably fast wheels.

About the SRM - it probably comes down to price and convenience. For an appropriately accurate SRM, you can get a selection of PT wheels. Also - if you want to pimp your bike for a mountain climb, you can leave the whole lot at home and be a Weight Weenie.

 

[RapDaddyo]

This becomes a fascinating question when one considers two or more racing bikes (e.g., RR and TT), two or more wheel sets (e.g., training, race and disc) and backup strategies. While I haven't made my final decisions, this is how I am leaning at the moment.

Power Meter: PT SL
Training Wheels: Campy Montreals, two rear wheels, one w/ PT Pro hub
Race Wheels: HED 3 Carbon (front & rear) w/ PT SL hub on rear
Disc: HED Disc w/ PT SL hub

If my HED 3 hub goes on the blink, I will race with my training wheel. If my HED Disc hub goes on the blink, I will race with my HED 3 Carbon. If my training wheel hub goes on the blink, I will train with my backup non-PT hub. The entire power meter setup (2 computers and receivers, 2 SL hubs and 1 Pro hub) is less than the cost of one SRM Pro.

I should also note that you won't find the HED 3s or HED Disc on sale anywhere with a PT hub.

 

[zaskar]

This becomes a fascinating question when one considers two or more racing bikes (e.g., RR and TT), two or more wheel sets (e.g., training, race and disc) and backup strategies. While I haven't made my final decisions, this is how I am leaning at the moment.

Power Meter: PT SL
Training Wheels: Campy Montreals, two rear wheels, one w/ PT Pro hub
Race Wheels: HED 3 Carbon (front & rear) w/ PT SL hub on rear
Disc: HED Disc w/ PT SL hub

If my HED 3 hub goes on the blink, I will race with my training wheel. If my HED Disc hub goes on the blink, I will race with my HED 3 Carbon. If my training wheel hub goes on the blink, I will train with my backup non-PT hub. The entire power meter setup (2 computers and receivers, 2 SL hubs and 1 Pro hub) is less than the cost of one SRM Pro.

I should also note that you won't find the HED 3s or HED Disc on sale anywhere with a PT hub.

Looks like you got it covered. may i ask why you didn't go with a Srm?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Looks like you got it covered. may i ask why you didn't go with a Srm?

Cost was a big factor. For my road and TT bikes alone, that would be $6400. And, I may get a track bike as well. So, that would be $10K in PMs alone. Plus, I am developing a "secret weapon" that requires power data and the first iteration will work with PT Pro and SL hubs. Eventually, I'll have an SRM version, but I'm looking at states and nat'ls this year and don't know if the SRM version will be working by then.

 

[zaskar]

Cost was a big factor. For my road and TT bikes alone, that would be $6400. And, I may get a track bike as well. So, that would be $10K in PMs alone. Plus, I am developing a "secret weapon" that requires power data and the first iteration will work with PT Pro and SL hubs. Eventually, I'll have an SRM version, but I'm looking at states and nat'ls this year and don't know if the SRM version will be working by then.

Ok that makes much sense. im still tossing around but leaning towards Srm DA.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Ok that makes much sense. im still tossing around but leaning towards Srm DA.

I have not ridden an SRM bike, but based on the posters on this forum alone whose input I have come to respect, the SRM Pro has to be a fabulous power meter product, maybe the gold standard of PMs. And, the SRM system definitely has the advantage of being independent of whatever wheel you are running. But, it is also a fact that the SRM is an expensive system. Having ridden with and without power, I do not want to be without power in an important race, which drives me toward a backup system because any piece of technology can go on the blink and I would not want that to happen the week before my biggest race of the season. So, that means two SRM Pro systems at $6400. That would buy a lot of wheels, including backups.

 

[Squint]

Aren't SRM Pros $2750? How do you get 2 x 2750=6400?

SRMs are so reliable that you don't need a backup. It's just as likely that any non-electronic part of the bike fail.

I have not ridden an SRM bike, but based on the posters on this forum alone whose input I have come to respect, the SRM Pro has to be a fabulous power meter product, maybe the gold standard of PMs. And, the SRM system definitely has the advantage of being independent of whatever wheel you are running. But, it is also a fact that the SRM is an expensive system. Having ridden with and without power, I do not want to be without power in an important race, which drives me toward a backup system because any piece of technology can go on the blink and I would not want that to happen the week before my biggest race of the season. So, that means two SRM Pro systems at $6400. That would buy a lot of wheels, including backups.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Aren't SRM Pros $2750? How do you get 2 x 2750=6400?

The set I priced was $3200.

SRMs are so reliable that you don't need a backup. It's just as likely that any non-electronic part of the bike fail.

Then you don't need a backup. I choose to have a backup. The SRM uses strain gauges, as does the PT. Strain gauges can fail.

 

[Squint]

The set I priced was $3200.

Then you don't need a backup. I choose to have a backup. The SRM uses strain gauges, as does the PT. Strain gauges can fail.

$3200? I'll sell you my SRM Pro for $2750. It's only a few months old.

Strain gauges aren't the most likely failure mode for powermeters thus the fact that both SRMs and PTs use them doesn't make SRMs as unreliable as PTs. For example, SRMs will work when it's cold whereas PT SLs may not. The SRM computer is waterproof, the PT one isn't really. The SRM computer doesn't lose data frequently. The SRM wiring won't fail if you handle it. I can go on and on...

 

[RapDaddyo]

$3200? I'll sell you my SRM Pro for $2750. It's only a few months old.

Just because I wasn't interested at $3200 doesn't mean I am interested at $2750.

Strain gauges aren't the most likely failure mode for powermeters thus the fact that both SRMs and PTs use them doesn't make SRMs as unreliable as PTs. For example, SRMs will work when it's cold whereas PT SLs may not. The SRM computer is waterproof, the PT one isn't really. The SRM computer doesn't lose data frequently. The SRM wiring won't fail if you handle it. I can go on and on...

Call me cautious, but I still want a backup. If I am fortunate enough to make it to nationals in TT, after months of training to raise my FT and after a lot of work to be able to ride a "perfect" race given my FT and after paying to fly out to wherever nationals are that year, I don't want to be without my PM because something has failed. But, I'm not dissing the SRM. I'm sure the SRM is a wonderful, fantastic, incredible, phenomenal, failure-proof product.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Aren't SRM Pros $2750? How do you get 2 x 2750=6400?

I think if I got an SRM Pro, I would go with the compact crank version, equivalent to what I have now. Looks like I underestimated the price -- it's $3400. http://www.thebikeage.com/order.htm#CARBON%20SRM

 

[zaskar]

$3200? I'll sell you my SRM Pro for $2750. It's only a few months old.

Strain gauges aren't the most likely failure mode for powermeters thus the fact that both SRMs and PTs use them doesn't make SRMs as unreliable as PTs. For example, SRMs will work when it's cold whereas PT SLs may not. The SRM computer is waterproof, the PT one isn't really. The SRM computer doesn't lose data frequently. The SRM wiring won't fail if you handle it. I can go on and on...

How do you calibrate the Srm, and how often?

 

[peterpen]

SRM's are great, but they sure seem finicky - just subscribe to the Topica Wattage list for a bit and count how many posts deal with calibration or 'slope issues' or downloading problems. And if you can't fix your problem? Gotta ship it to Germany... (Which is only a hassle if you live in the US, I guess.)

re 404 vs. 808, unless you only do TT's, seems like the 404 is the better choice. And you might even consider the 303, especially since the 06 rim is now 44mm deep. Seems like a pretty optimal depth for a multi-purpose wheel.

 

[RapDaddyo]

SRM's are great, but they sure seem finicky - just subscribe to the Topica Wattage list for a bit and count how many posts deal with calibration or 'slope issues' or downloading problems. And if you can't fix your problem? Gotta ship it to Germany... (Which is only a hassle if you live in the US, I guess.)

Hmmm. Sounds like one might want a backup for important events.

 

[Squint]

Reading Topica, I remember one PT user talking about the calibration procedure when he found his PT was off. It involved shipping the PT back to Saris. At least you can calibrate the SRM at home and within minutes. That's far less time than it takes to package a PT wheel for shipping.

Nobody in the US sends their SRMs to Germany. Are you just making this up or clueless?

With the wireless PT SL around the corner, PTs are approaching SRMs in price but still bottoming out on reliability. Usually, wireless devices are less reliable than their wired counterparts but you have to wonder if that's even possible with PTs since the wired versions are already plagued by interference and data dropout problems.

Reading the wattage list only gives you the sense that it is indeed the PT support forum. During the season, there's almost one PT plea for help per day.

PT users are fixated on 1-2 issues with the SRM that arguably aren't even issues. Perhaps exaggerating the SRM's so-called "issues" vindicates them somehow. On the other hand, the are probably two dozen unique ways a PT can fail with new failure modes being discovered regularly.

One has to wonder why a $30 Cateye cyclocomputer doesn't die when it gets wet or why its wiring doesn't fail if you handle it. Yet the PT is plagued by these problems. Cyclocomputers aren't cutting edge tech. It might be inherently difficult to seal a hub powermeter but that doesn't explain the panoply of unrelated problems with the PT.

If SRMs were so awful and PTs so great then SRM would've been out of business a long time ago at the prices they charge. Obviously, the market supports them. On the other hand, one wonders if PTs have turned a profit yet. They're on their 3rd owner now or what? It can't be profitable replacing CPUs and hubs all the time and all the shipping involved, no matter how much you skimp on quality control.

SRM's are great, but they sure seem finicky - just subscribe to the Topica Wattage list for a bit and count how many posts deal with calibration or 'slope issues' or downloading problems. And if you can't fix your problem? Gotta ship it to Germany... (Which is only a hassle if you live in the US, I guess.)

re 404 vs. 808, unless you only do TT's, seems like the 404 is the better choice. And you might even consider the 303, especially since the 06 rim is now 44mm deep. Seems like a pretty optimal depth for a multi-purpose wheel.

 

[beerco]

PT users are fixated on 1-2 issues with the SRM that arguably aren't even issues. Perhaps exaggerating the SRM's so-called "issues" vindicates them somehow. On the other hand, the are probably two dozen unique ways a PT can fail with new failure modes being discovered regularly.

Now who's laying on the hyperbole? Perhaps exaggerating the PT's reliability issues somehow vindicates SRM buyers for spending so much?

The reality is that they've both got their pluses and minuses. Neither one is the ideal PM in my mind.

 

[Squint]

Well, people are free to switch from one to the other if they're dissatisfied with the PT's reliability or the SRM's price. But you don't see many people switching from SRMs to PTs. Instead, you see a mass exodus from PT to SRM.

Now who's laying on the hyperbole? Perhaps exaggerating the PT's reliability issues somehow vindicates SRM buyers for spending so much?

The reality is that they've both got their pluses and minuses. Neither one is the ideal PM in my mind.

 

[peterpen]

jeez, relax buddy! I was only pointing out that SRM's are far from infallible - which they really should be considering the cost. I thought I recalled some Wattage posts that mentioned sending units back to Germany, but perhaps I am merely 'clueless.' If I was had more money to burn, I'd probably sport the SRM, too, but the PowerTap works fine for me - and gave me a good excuse to get a nice set of new wheels also!

but hey - it's your vitriol, spread it around as you see fit. I'll now go for a ride (in the rain - no problems) and enjoy my PowerTap while you get steamy about how worthless it is, okay?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Instead, you see a mass exodus from PT to SRM.

Do you have some data to back up this strong assertion, or is this based on a few anecdotes? I'm not challenging the accuracy of your statement. I just wonder what it's based on.