ZIPP 404 or Mavic Carbone SSC????????

[fushman]

Originally posted by marlon1


No.

the Clincher has an alu strip. this one will wear off or the strip will get little bumps and that sort of things.

the Tubular version has an other surface treadment. That means it's still one with the rim. As far as I know all this type of wheels have a special surface treadment for braking. This won't wear off if you use th especial brake pads (or nog as quick as an alu).

maybe i just need to look closer at zipps website, but it looks like the 404 clincher is just two peices, a composite deep section connected to an alloy core, or whatever you want to call it. why would they add an alum strip if the breaking surface is already metal? what am i missing

 

[marlon1]

the CLINCHER has an alu strip. this one will wear off or the strip will get little bumps and that sort of things. ****

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/dyn_docs/1067-440-1.jpg



the TUBULAR version has an other surface treadment. That means it's still one with the rim. As far as I know all this type of wheels have a special surface treadment for braking. This won't wear off if you use th especial brake pads (or nog as quick as an alu). You hardly see this special surface. Great wheel. 560g. lighter than the clincher with clinchers

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/dyn_docs/1064-439-1.jpg



The Mavic is really???*!$%? The have a Metal rim, with a Carbon layer with an alu braking surface on top! Oh gosh it's 2kg!!!

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/dyn_docs/1029-424-1.jpg





ok?

 

[fushman]

what does that picture show? the entire core section is aluminum, the lips that engage the clincher beads, the braking surface, the whole part that contacts the tire and tube and brake pads, no?

http://www.zipp.com/images/cross_404c.gif

 

[marlon1]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just read the text and LOOK at the picture!


404 CLINCHER:


http://www.zipp.com/images/cross_404c.gif

Again: ' the CLINCHER has an alu strip. this one will wear off or the strip will get little bumps and that sort of things. ****'



404 TUBULAR

http://www.zipp.com/images/cross_404t.gif

And again: 'the TUBULAR version has NO ALU RIMSTRIP. But an other surface treadment. That means it's still one with the rim. As far as I know all this type of wheels have a special surface treadment for braking. This won't wear off if you use th especial brake pads (or nog as quick as an alu). You hardly see this special surface. Great wheel. 560g. lighter than the clincher with clinchers'



(LO)OK?

 

[fushman]

yes thank you for reposting your own posts as well as my link. its not a strip is my point, ITS ONE PIECE! no?!

 

[patch70]

Originally posted by marlon1
And with tubulars you have more safety, better road performance, less friction....

Are they really safer? Apparently there is talk of the UCI banning tubulars because of concerns about being less safe.

 

[mjw_byrne]

Yeah, I would have thought clinchers are a lot safer because there's less possibility of rolling one off the rim.

 

[Halflin]

The whole part of the wheel that holds the tire in place (and the braking surface) on the clincher wheels is aluminum. It's not just a alum. strip glued over carbon like in the past. The carbon is bonded to the alum. extrusion. If you look at a picture on zipp's web site they show a cross section of how the two parts are fitted together. I wouldn't think that the alum. extrusion would be any different from a full alum wheel unless it's thinner.

Half

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by Halflin
The whole part of the wheel that holds the tire in place (and the braking surface) on the clincher wheels is aluminum. It's not just a alum. strip glued over carbon like in the past. The carbon is bonded to the alum. extrusion. If you look at a picture on zipp's web site they show a cross section of how the two parts are fitted together. I wouldn't think that the alum. extrusion would be any different from a full alum wheel unless it's thinner.

Half

thanks, i was worried i was completely missing something. i know about the problems with the delamination of the carbon and alum, but as i understand it the new clincher 404s are good. im pretty sure zipp fixed the problem by only changing their bonding process, and not be redesigning the wheel. because of that i can see why marlon was just saying that given that pic it was still a problem, but a strip is a strip, a thin peice of metal, for practical purposes one two dimentional, or at least thin. a core section of a rim is not a strip. whether or not theres still a delamination process, that wheel still had no strip from the pic or descriptions.

marlon, looking at your other posts its pretty obvious youre basically just stupid, but ill say anyways that in the future it helps to rephrase when trying to clarify a point instead of just citing yourself verbatim.

 

[fushman]

Originally posted by Halflin
The whole part of the wheel that holds the tire in place (and the braking surface) on the clincher wheels is aluminum. It's not just a alum. strip glued over carbon like in the past. The carbon is bonded to the alum. extrusion. If you look at a picture on zipp's web site they show a cross section of how the two parts are fitted together. I wouldn't think that the alum. extrusion would be any different from a full alum wheel unless it's thinner.

Half

opps i guess zipp did redesign the whole wheel, but in any case, ya

 

[marlon1]

ok, it's not a strip. BUT ITS ALU AND CLINCHER


I don't understand why somebody want clincher-wheels!!??

They are heavy, not safe, have less comfort and more resistance.

Heavy-> I calculated this for you. Think of 500-600g more then the tubular. So you are buying a $1300 wheel, because it is a few 100grams lighter than standard wheels. And then you mount clinchers!


Not Safe-> If and only if you glue your tubulars in the rihgt way, they are much safer. Think you are riding down a mountain, and your tire is punctured. A clincher is attached toto rim with air pressure. So the clincher will roll of (and you are riding 80km/h or so).
A tubular is glued on the rim! So if you get a puncute in the tubular, it will stick on the rim! And the air will be released very slow. You have all the time to stop. But the most important is, your tubular won't roll of.


Less Comfort. Less comfort because it has 2 tubes. An outer and one inner. Try Tubular one time and you don't want anything else


More drag. A tubular has more drag. You can find data on the web.


Alu on carbon rim. I can't stand it. Buying a expensive carbon wheel, you want it to be completely carbon right???


the best glue for your tubulars is Vittoria Mastik One





SO TELL ME WHY YOU WANT CLINCHERS????

 

[mjw_byrne]

OK:

-Cheaper
-Easier to repair punctures
-No messing around with glue
-Wider choice of wheels/rims
-Easier to find replacements
-Don't have to carry a spare tyre
-Can lean into corners without worrying about rolling a tyre off the rim (even if a tubular is glued properly, hot weather or heat buildup in the rim from braking can weaken the glue)

And I've had punctures on clincher tyres many times, even very light kevlar-beaded Vittoria Open Corsas, and they've never once rolled off the rim. I've even ridden 6 miles over **** roads on a flat clincher and it stayed on the rim just fine.

 

[asgelle]

Originally posted by marlon1
ok, it's not a strip. BUT ITS ALU AND CLINCHER


I don't understand why somebody want clincher-wheels!!??

They are heavy, not safe, have less comfort and more resistance.

....

SO TELL ME WHY YOU WANT CLINCHERS????

Lower rolling resistance with clinchers.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rolres.html
http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

 

[marlon1]

OK if this i are the best arguments for clincher wheels:

-Cheaper
-Easier to repair punctures
-No messing around with glue
-Wider choice of wheels/rims
-Easier to find replacements
-Don't have to carry a spare tyre

-------------------


So you are buying a $1300 wheel, a real proffesional wheel, and you are carrying around with spare-tubes???? In a cycle-bag??? So you are buying a $1300 wheel because it has a 58mm wheel instead of a normal 25mm, which give you a aerodynamic advantage of 0.5min with 40km/h or something in 1 hour, and you are carrying around with a cycle-bag??????!

If somebody rides a Zipp404 it 99.9% a proffesional. So forget about the spare-tubes, scared for dirty hands and glue on your rim and more of that stuff. And yes, it takes one week to glue your tubulars. So if you know that in advantage, what is your problem?


Enough choise: Campangolo, Shimano, HED, Zipp, Sinergy, Reynolds, ADA, Look, Thorius, FIR.



I can only agree on one point:
On a traingsbike you can better mount clinchers! But I never saw Zipp404 under a traingsbike!!!



-----------

-Can lean into corners without worrying about rolling a tyre off the rim (even if a tubular is glued properly, hot weather or heat buildup in the rim from braking can weaken the glue)


But if you glue it properly the chanche of rolling of is as great as your helmet falls of your head, in front of your front wheel, and you cycle over it. or something


-------
And I've had punctures on clincher tyres many times, even very light kevlar-beaded Vittoria Open Corsas, and they've never once rolled off the rim. I've even ridden 6 miles over **** roads on a flat clincher and it stayed on the rim just fine.

In 99.9% of the cases Impossibe. A clincher stays on the rim because it is pressed against the rim with air-pressure. If you get a puncture, the clincher will roll of. As easy as that.

Than maybe uou are very lucky...... 99.9% of the people who get a puncture on a clincher don't drive further. Because after 50meters the clincher rolls of.




asgelle-> ?Do you see Tufo tubulars here?? The Tufo Elite?

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

ok.

 

[asgelle]

Originally posted by marlon1


asgelle-> ?Do you see Tufo tubulars here?? The Tufo Elite?

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

ok.

No, but I don't think one could reasonably expect them to be lower than the Clement Setas.

If you read the discussion, you'd see that the reason the tubular data follow a curve with different shape from the clinchers (which are all similar) and asymptotes to a finite value at infinite pressure rather than approaching zero as the clinchers do is from losses in the tubular glue. This will be present and exceed the rolling resistance of a clincher at high pressure even if the tubular tire adds no additional rolling resistance.

 

[mjw_byrne]

Originally posted by marlon1
So you are buying a $1300 wheel, a real proffesional wheel, and you are carrying around with spare-tubes???? In a cycle-bag??? So you are buying a $1300 wheel because it has a 58mm wheel instead of a normal 25mm, which give you a aerodynamic advantage of 0.5min with 40km/h or something in 1 hour, and you are carrying around with a cycle-bag??????!

If somebody rides a Zipp404 it 99.9% a proffesional. So forget about the spare-tubes, scared for dirty hands and glue on your rim and more of that stuff. And yes, it takes one week to glue your tubulars. So if you know that in advantage, what is your problem?

No, I'm not buying a $1300 wheel, I am not that serious a cyclist. For me cycling is somthing I do for fun and to keep fit, I am not a professional and I don't want to spend a week gluing a tyre onto a rim. I daresay this applies to the majority of people on these fora.

Enough choise: Campangolo, Shimano, HED, Zipp, Sinergy, Reynolds, ADA, Look, Thorius, FIR.

I never said there wasn't enough choice of tubular wheels, just that there was a wider choice of clincher wheels, and this is true. Also, tubular wheels tend to be a lot more expensive than clincher ones.

I can only agree on one point:
On a traingsbike you can better mount clinchers! But I never saw Zipp404 under a traingsbike!!!

Well, see above - I don't race so all my bikes are training bikes.

But if you glue it properly the chanche of rolling of is as great as your helmet falls of your head, in front of your front wheel, and you cycle over it. or something

I've never had either of these things happen to me so I can't comment on this from personal experience, but I highly doubt this is true, especially when you consider the effects of heat buildup in the rim, e.g. due to a lot of braking on a carbon rim. Can anyone else here lend their opinion?

In 99.9% of the cases Impossibe. A clincher stays on the rim because it is pressed against the rim with air-pressure. If you get a puncture, the clincher will roll of. As easy as that.

Than maybe uou are very lucky...... 99.9% of the people who get a puncture on a clincher don't drive further. Because after 50meters the clincher rolls of.

A clincher is pressed against the rim with air pressure, yes, but even when it is deflated the beads are a smaller diameter than the rim, so the bead would have to stretch for the tyre to come off, and this isn't a trivial matter. Why do you think tyre levers are required to get many wire-beaded tyres off the rims? Again I can only be as sure as my own experience, but I have never ever had a clincher escape from a rim due to a puncture. Anyone else's opinion on this?

 

[Halflin]

I love how pasionate cyclists are!! I really appreciate all of the great input.

The reason I'm going with clinchers is sheer ease. I've been riding now for about 3 years and this is my second year of racing and I'm just going to hang with them for now. I've moved up to a Cat 4 and I'm still just trying to get the motor working good! Maybe when I get to a cat 3 I'll be looking at tubulars more when I feel more confident with them. I think for me it's a matter of deserving tubulars. I just don't feel like I there yet. A couple of guys I ride with are Cat 1 national master riders and they both use clinchers. I've talked to them and they both love clinchers. But also the thought of getting a flat on a tubular tire and $50+ gone down the drain scares the **** out of me. I don't get flats often but I do enough to know the cost would kill me. I currently have 2 bikes that I ride (one at work -ridden the most- and one at home -race bike- so I'll be using the wheels more often then the once a week race that tubulars are better suited for.

Thanks!
Half

 

[marlon1]

-->

But also the thought of getting a flat on a tubular tire and $50+ gone down the drain scares the **** out of me. I currently have 2 bikes that I ride (one at work -ridden the most- and one at home -race bike.....



It's your choise, but you have 2 bikes!! So I suggest to mount clincher on the 1st bike (I think the have clincher already), and mount tubulars on the wheels for your racing bike (Zipp 404).

If you buy Tufo tubulars, and put Tufo sealant in it, you won't get a flat tire that easy.

http://www.tufo.com/index.php?lg=en&mn=7&co=prislus


I also suggest you to buy tubulars, and if you think/feel you don't want/deserve to ride tubulars yet, wait another year. Buying clincher wheels of $1300 is a waist of money.

 

[izzodesh]

Originally posted by mjw_byrne
Cool, ta for the info on the 404's, I didn't know they had the alu strip.

i would say go for reynolds
and if u are looking for a budget one try botrager used

 

[sd5500]

Originally posted by marlon1
OK if this i are the best arguments for clincher wheels:

-Cheaper
-Easier to repair punctures
-No messing around with glue
-Wider choice of wheels/rims
-Easier to find replacements
-Don't have to carry a spare tyre

-------------------


So you are buying a $1300 wheel, a real proffesional wheel, and you are carrying around with spare-tubes???? In a cycle-bag??? So you are buying a $1300 wheel because it has a 58mm wheel instead of a normal 25mm, which give you a aerodynamic advantage of 0.5min with 40km/h or something in 1 hour, and you are carrying around with a cycle-bag??????!

If somebody rides a Zipp404 it 99.9% a proffesional. So forget about the spare-tubes, scared for dirty hands and glue on your rim and more of that stuff. And yes, it takes one week to glue your tubulars. So if you know that in advantage, what is your problem?


Enough choise: Campangolo, Shimano, HED, Zipp, Sinergy, Reynolds, ADA, Look, Thorius, FIR.



I can only agree on one point:
On a traingsbike you can better mount clinchers! But I never saw Zipp404 under a traingsbike!!!



-----------

-Can lean into corners without worrying about rolling a tyre off the rim (even if a tubular is glued properly, hot weather or heat buildup in the rim from braking can weaken the glue)


But if you glue it properly the chanche of rolling of is as great as your helmet falls of your head, in front of your front wheel, and you cycle over it. or something


-------
And I've had punctures on clincher tyres many times, even very light kevlar-beaded Vittoria Open Corsas, and they've never once rolled off the rim. I've even ridden 6 miles over **** roads on a flat clincher and it stayed on the rim just fine.

In 99.9% of the cases Impossibe. A clincher stays on the rim because it is pressed against the rim with air-pressure. If you get a puncture, the clincher will roll of. As easy as that.

Than maybe uou are very lucky...... 99.9% of the people who get a puncture on a clincher don't drive further. Because after 50meters the clincher rolls of.




asgelle-> ?Do you see Tufo tubulars here?? The Tufo Elite?

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/rolres.gif

ok.

You are hard to understand!