Zipp 404 vs Mavic carbones?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by KB, Oct 8, 2004.

  1. KB

    KB Guest

    Anyone tried both these wheelsets?
    Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of the 404
    automatically make it a better choice for road racing??
     
    Tags:


  2. KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of the 404
    automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>


    " More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

    I think you need to think about reliability unless you have a team car behind
    you with a load of wrenches and wheels.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  3. "Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
    > the 404
    > automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >
    >
    > " More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...


    Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!

    PH
     
  4. Stan Cox

    Stan Cox Guest

    Philip Holman wrote:

    > "Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
    >>the 404
    >>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >>
    >>
    >>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

    >
    >
    > Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
    >
    > PH
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
    rolls or handlebars snap etc etc

    Stan Cox
     
  5. On 09 Oct 2004 13:25:31 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla
    Campagnolo ) wrote:

    >KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of the 404
    >automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >
    >
    >" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
    >
    >I think you need to think about reliability unless you have a team car behind
    >you with a load of wrenches and wheels.


    The reliablity issue is a straw man in talking about the two wheels in
    question. Both can use perfectly reasonable weight/durability tires
    and both are plenty strong enough for racing over any but the most
    extremely bad roads. And gluing tires reliably is not rocket
    science.

    The drawback of the two wheels in question is high price, not lack of
    reliablity.

    JT

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  6. JFT-<< The reliablity issue is a straw man in talking about the two wheels in
    question. Both can use perfectly reasonable weight/durability tires
    and both are plenty strong enough for racing over any but the most
    extremely bad roads. >><BR><BR>

    Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we true,
    repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.

    I was commenting on the statement, "forgetting about durability issues'. ANY
    bicycle component has certain 'durability issues' that MUST be considered
    before ya lay $ on them. To not do so means you may be disappointed when you
    'break'...

    JFT-<< The drawback of the two wheels in question is high price, not lack of
    reliablity. >><BR><BR>

    High price and low durability when compared to other wheels and low, low
    performance gains per dollar.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  7. "Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Philip Holman wrote:
    >
    >> "Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>
    >>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
    >>>the 404
    >>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

    >>
    >> Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
    >>
    >> PH
    >>

    > No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
    > rolls or handlebars snap etc etc
    >
    > Stan Cox


    I find that very hard to believe.

    PH
     
  8. On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla
    Campagnolo ) wrote:


    >Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we true,
    >repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.


    But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
    trued, huh?

    JT

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    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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  9. Stan Cox

    Stan Cox Guest

    Philip Holman wrote:
    > "Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Philip Holman wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
    >>>>the 404
    >>>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
    >>>
    >>>Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
    >>>
    >>>PH
    >>>

    >>
    >>No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
    >>rolls or handlebars snap etc etc
    >>
    >>Stan Cox

    >
    >
    > I find that very hard to believe.
    >
    > PH
    >
    >

    Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
    I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
    that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
    someone commented on this recently :)

    Stan Cox
     
  10. "Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Philip Holman wrote:
    >> "Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>
    >>>Philip Holman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:[email protected]
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight
    >>>>>of the 404
    >>>>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
    >>>>
    >>>>Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
    >>>>
    >>>>PH
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
    >>>rolls or handlebars snap etc etc
    >>>
    >>>Stan Cox

    >>
    >>
    >> I find that very hard to believe.
    >>
    >> PH

    > Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
    > I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
    > that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
    > someone commented on this recently :)
    >

    Let me clarify my position. What I find hard to believe is that more
    people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
    benefits of that equipment. It's not so much as having an advantage as
    being on a par with the other riders. I count being on a par as a
    winning benefit of the equipment. Some would like to see a basic
    standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. As long
    as equipment is available to all I see no unfair advantage. One could
    argue that expensive equipment is not available to all simply due to
    cost but that's a whole new thread more suitable for discussion in a
    different NG.
    PH
     
  11. Stan Cox

    Stan Cox Guest

    Philip Holman wrote:

    > "Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Philip Holman wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Stan Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Philip Holman wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:[email protected]
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight
    >>>>>>of the 404
    >>>>>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
    >>>>>
    >>>>>PH
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
    >>>>rolls or handlebars snap etc etc
    >>>>
    >>>>Stan Cox
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>I find that very hard to believe.
    >>>
    >>>PH

    >>
    >>Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
    >>I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
    >>that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
    >>someone commented on this recently :)
    >>

    >
    > Let me clarify my position. What I find hard to believe is that more
    > people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
    > benefits of that equipment. It's not so much as having an advantage as
    > being on a par with the other riders. I count being on a par as a
    > winning benefit of the equipment. Some would like to see a basic
    > standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. As long
    > as equipment is available to all I see no unfair advantage. One could
    > argue that expensive equipment is not available to all simply due to
    > cost but that's a whole new thread more suitable for discussion in a
    > different NG.
    > PH
    >
    >

    This is a discussion we should take to the bar to discuss over a few
    drinks :)

    Stan Cox
     
  12. DB

    DB Guest

    I asked the original question, but responding from a different account....
    First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...
    Second, I said 'reliability aside' simply because I believe that both are
    reliable enough, and I have used Zipps in harsh road conditions and have
    never had a problem. So I am simply looking for comments on the peformance
    of each wheelset, and wondering if the weight difference really matters that
    much?
    Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past Summer,
    going to be available any time soon?



    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla
    > Campagnolo ) wrote:
    >
    >
    > >Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we

    true,
    > >repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.

    >
    > But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
    > trued, huh?
    >
    > JT
    >
    > ****************************
    > Remove "remove" to reply
    > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    > ****************************
     
  13. On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:25:17 GMT, "DB"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I asked the original question, but responding from a different account....
    >First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...


    No one in this group is required to answer questions.

    JT

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  14. Philip-<< What I find hard to believe is that more
    people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
    benefits of that equipment. >><BR><BR>

    The gent that broke his chain in the TdF, Tyler breaking his rear wheel, Fignon
    breaking a crank arm in a break away, lots of examples...Only one where he won
    due to equipment was Greg, and even that is open for discussion since Fignon
    was having saddle sore issues....

    Philip-<< Some would like to see a basic
    standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. >><BR><BR>

    It is, weight limits, double triangle framesets, no trei bars, same size wheels
    for a bike, etc.

    Way too much importance on equipment, way to much influence from the marketing
    and advertising department .

    This silly light stuff does not put a person on a bicycle and keep them there.

    Like a gent that rode for Molteni and Merckx, " Eddy can win on my bike, I
    can't win on his."



    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  15. JFT-<< But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
    trued, huh? >><BR><BR>

    No such thing as a free lunch. If they are light, light they need more
    attention than a heavier wheel...

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  16. DB-<< Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past
    Summer,
    going to be available any time soon? >><BR><BR>

    First of the year or so, $1200 or so. Really just a whizbang carbon-y hub, with
    a carbon faring on an aluminum rim. About 1800+ grams.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  17. On 11 Oct 2004 14:16:45 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla
    Campagnolo ) wrote:

    >JFT-<< But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
    >trued, huh? >><BR><BR>
    >
    >No such thing as a free lunch. If they are light, light they need more
    >attention than a heavier wheel...


    So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
    someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? That seems
    to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
    weaker. Period.

    Which is way too simplistic.

    JT

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  18. JFT-<< So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
    someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? >><BR><BR>

    Nope, not saying that at all.

    JFT-<< That seems
    to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
    weaker. Period. >><BR><BR>

    Nope not my point. My point is that durability needs to be considered in a
    light weight 'racing' wheel.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Guest

    > Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past
    Summer,
    > going to be available any time soon?


    Already available in Europe (Holland), 895 euros.


    "DB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I asked the original question, but responding from a different

    account....
    > First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...
    > Second, I said 'reliability aside' simply because I believe that

    both are
    > reliable enough, and I have used Zipps in harsh road conditions and

    have
    > never had a problem. So I am simply looking for comments on the

    peformance
    > of each wheelset, and wondering if the weight difference really

    matters that
    > much?
    > Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past

    Summer,
    > going to be available any time soon?
    >
    >
    >
    > "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla
    > > Campagnolo ) wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > >Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming

    when we
    > true,
    > > >repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all

    the time.
    > >
    > > But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to

    be
    > > trued, huh?
    > >
    > > JT
    > >
    > > ****************************
    > > Remove "remove" to reply
    > > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    > > ****************************

    >
    >
     
  20. Glenn Katon

    Glenn Katon Guest

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > JFT-<< So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
    > someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Nope, not saying that at all.
    >
    > JFT-<< That seems
    > to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
    > weaker. Period. >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Nope not my point. My point is that durability needs to be considered in a
    > light weight 'racing' wheel.
    >
    > Peter Chisholm
    > Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    > 1833 Pearl St.
    > Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535
    > http://www.vecchios.com
    > "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"


    The part of the question that has not been focused on is "which is
    better for road racing." And that depends on the course and the style
    of rider. If it's a hilly course, lightweight will be valuable. If
    it's flat, a couple hundred grams won't make any difference. Apart
    from weight, the other considerations are aero and stiffness. If
    you're a breakaway rider, you'll want some good aero wheels b/c you'll
    be out on your own more (even if in a small group you'll be taking way
    more pulls than if you're sitting in so you'll want the aero benefit).
    If you're a sprinter, aero won't be so important b/c if you're always
    glued to someone's wheel, aerodynamics is less important (which is not
    to say it's irrelevant - I wouldn't want to ride a 36 hole open pro
    even if I planned on sitting in), and you'll want a stiff wheel to get
    the most bang out of your sprint. For me, the biggest challenge in
    selecting racing wheels is finding something that's stiff enough, but
    I'm 210 lbs and do mostly crits, so stiffness is even more important
    b/c of all the sprinting out of corners.

    All that said, I haven't ridden either set of wheels. I have lots of
    toys and about 5 wheelsets, but I have never considered the Zipps or
    Carbones to be worth the huge price tag. That's my two cents - Glenn
     
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