Zone 3 Syndrome

[BullGod]

Don't you have an elite version?

A point of interest for me is something i heard from a Belgian pro - he said his FTP in mid winter is about 280 - but he can beat that by 100 by May. He also said he does 4-5 hr rides at 25-28kph all winter, after a month off the bike in october.

I think many guys here on the forum have a year round FTP higher than 280, but few would ever get to 380, despite training L4 way more often than this fella.

For me that suggests, at least as far as top end competition is concerned, that Base training then intensity trumps year round FTP training.

Note I said "as far as top end competition is concerned" - I'm sure if you have limited time to train, aren't recovering from a gruelling season and preparing for a new one it might well be more prudent to train at reasonable intensity for much of the year.

To be honest, I would sh*t myself if my FTP went below 300 any time of the year!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...I think many guys here on the forum have a year round FTP higher than 280, but few would ever get to 380, despite training L4 way more often than this fella....

A few thoughts come to mind. First, he's a european professional rider, few forum members can claim that and the talent, years of training and focused comittment to the sport implied. Doubt he has another job or fits his cycling around other pursuits.

Secondly, you say he does "Base then intensity" I take it you mean LSD base which wouldn't be surprising for a full time professional athlete competing in classics and long events. If so, how do you suppose he assesses his winter FTP? If he's not doing 2x20s or other L4 work that time of year how do you suppose he comes up with his 280 watt number? I suppose he could be doing some winter testing, but that implies at least some winter intensity above LSD base work.

Not doubting his claims or his path to racing success, just that it doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of folks that frequent these forums. I'm sure LSD followed by intensity can work(it has for many years in pro circuits) for folks with the time to train and recover and with a full time commitment to cycling. The question is whether that approach is as effective for working folks and amateurs.

-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

I think the range will cover his FTP

FTP, sure. I was thinking of L5/L6 intervals.

Edit: ok, let's say L6.

 

[frenchyge]

If so, how do you suppose he assesses his winter FTP?

That was kinda my question as well. I usually end up taking 6-10 weeks off the bike at the end of the summer, and as a result have to take a stab at my FTP when I resume training in late fall. That stab gets refined a little using PE and an occassional hard interval after a few trainer rides, and I usually settle on an FTP that's about 12-15% below the season peak. I'd be truly amazed to see someone's FTP drop by over 25% after a month off the bike. Maybe mental factors (burnout) are contributing to that drop as well.

As for the folks on this forum, I'd guess that many still see themselves in the building period of their cycling lives and that fuels the desire to keep the pressure on. Also, most probably don't race/ride enough to really burn out by the end of the year and actually enjoy continuing to train during the winter. Either way, it's all good.

 

[wiredued]

I don't want to be an elite I just want to be a Cat5 sand bagger. Riding in the pack is to scary.

 

[root]

BG likes a KPH version
31.8 =251.52w

Interesting. I just finished 1.5 hours at 250 Watts and my trainer estimates my speed at 23.5 km/h. Is it really that off?

 

[Piotr]

Interesting. I just finished 1.5 hours at 250 Watts and my trainer estimates my speed at 23.5 km/h. Is it really that off?

FYI, the values Wiredued posted are for the Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer only.

 

[wiredued]

On the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine 23.5kph=14.6mph=136watts so something isn't right.

Interesting. I just finished 1.5 hours at 250 Watts and my trainer estimates my speed at 23.5 km/h. Is it really that off?

 

[root]

On the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine 23.5kph=14.6mph=136watts so something isn't right.

136 Watts is easier than my recovery L1 level, and doesn't feel like I'm pushing the pedals at all. So, my ergometer must be doing the estimated road speed differently.

Even when I push 340 Watts, the speed doesn't go higher than 26.
At 650 Watts it's 32.5.

Truth be told it doesn't say what units it measures the speed in .

 

[frenchyge]

136 Watts is easier than my recovery L1 level, and doesn't feel like I'm pushing the pedals at all. So, my ergometer must be doing the estimated road speed differently.

Even when I push 340 Watts, the speed doesn't go higher than 26.
At 650 Watts it's 32.5.

Truth be told it doesn't say what units it measures the speed in .

Your erg isn't estimating road speed, it's measuring the actual speed of the wheel. Your gear combination and cadence will tell you whether it's mph or kph.

The KK Road Machine's resistance is set to approximate the power:speed relationship of riding outdoors on a slight grade.

 

[BullGod]

I don't want to be an elite I just want to be a Cat5 sand bagger. Riding in the pack is to scary.

Mate - the lower the category - the more crashes. I wouldn't ride in a cat 5 bunch for 1000 bucks.

but in the elite the speed is higher, so if there is a crash and you're in it, it's pretty rough. 60km/h faceplant is not something I want to consider.

 

[BullGod]

That was kinda my question as well. I usually end up taking 6-10 weeks off the bike at the end of the summer, and as a result have to take a stab at my FTP when I resume training in late fall. That stab gets refined a little using PE and an occassional hard interval after a few trainer rides, and I usually settle on an FTP that's about 12-15% below the season peak. I'd be truly amazed to see someone's FTP drop by over 25% after a month off the bike. Maybe mental factors (burnout) are contributing to that drop as well.

As for the folks on this forum, I'd guess that many still see themselves in the building period of their cycling lives and that fuels the desire to keep the pressure on. Also, most probably don't race/ride enough to really burn out by the end of the year and actually enjoy continuing to train during the winter. Either way, it's all good.

What I'm wondering now is about the idea of FTP being "elastic" - if you deliberately detrain it in the immediate off season, then do a couple of months of lower intensity endurance work before targeting FTP for quite a short period preseason. Get another season under your belt, detrain, LSD, repeat over the years.

So your FTP might "evolve" as follows:

end of season 1: 350
mid off season: 280
preseason: 355
end of season 2: 360
mid off season: 290
preseason: 360
end of season 3: 365

etc etc.

 

[rmur17]

136 Watts is easier than my recovery L1 level, and doesn't feel like I'm pushing the pedals at all. So, my ergometer must be doing the estimated road speed differently.

Even when I push 340 Watts, the speed doesn't go higher than 26.
At 650 Watts it's 32.5.

Truth be told it doesn't say what units it measures the speed in .

CT right? The speed units default to mph but with accurate power feedback - it's pretty irrelevant anyway and may not be realistic compared to outdoor riding (wind, hills etc).

 

[wiredued]

FTP, sure. I was thinking of L5/L6 intervals.

Edit: ok, let's say L6.

46.2=604.04w
46.3=607.32w
46.4=610.61w
46.5=613.91w
46.6=617.23w
46.7=620.56w
46.8=623.90w
46.9=627.25w
47=630.62w
47.1=634.00w
47.2=637.39w
47.3=640.80w
47.4=644.22w
47.5=647.65w
47.6=651.09w
47.7=654.55w
47.8=658.02w
47.9=661.51w
48=665.00w
48.1=668.52w
48.2=672.04w
48.3=675.58w
48.4=679.13w
48.5=682.69w
48.6=686.27w
48.7=689.86w
48.8=693.47w
48.9=697.08w
49=700.72w
49.1=704.36w
49.2=708.02w
49.3=711.69w
49.4=715.38w
49.5=719.08w
49.6=722.79w
49.7=726.52w
49.8=730.26w
49.9=734.01w
50=737.78w
50.1=741.56w
50.2=745.36w
50.3=749.17w
50.4=752.99w
50.5=756.83w
50.6=760.68w
50.7=764.54w
50.8=768.42w
50.9=772.32w
51=776.22w
51.1=780.14w
51.2=784.08w
51.3=788.03w
51.4=791.99w
51.5=795.97w
51.6=799.96w
51.7=803.97w
51.8=807.99w
51.9=812.02w
52=816.07w
52.1=820.14w
52.2=824.22w
52.3=828.31w
52.4=832.41w
52.5=836.54w
52.6=840.67w
52.7=844.82w
52.8=848.99w
52.9=853.16w
53=857.36w
53.1=861.57w
53.2=865.79w
53.3=870.03w
53.4=874.28w
53.5=878.55w
53.6=882.83w
53.7=887.13w
53.8=891.44w
53.9=895.77w
54=900.11w
54.1=904.46w
54.2=908.83w
54.3=913.22w
54.4=917.62w
54.5=922.04w
54.6=926.47w
54.7=930.91w
54.8=935.38w
54.9=939.85w
55=944.34w
55.1=948.85w
55.2=953.37w
55.3=957.91w
55.4=962.46w
55.5=967.03w
55.6=971.61w
55.7=976.21w
55.8=980.83w
55.9=985.45w
56=990.10w
56.1=994.76w
56.2=999.43w
56.3=1004.13w
56.4=1008.83w
56.5=1013.55w
56.6=1018.29w
56.7=1023.05w
56.8=1027.81w
56.9=1032.60w
57=1037.40w
57.1=1042.22w
57.2=1047.05w
57.3=1051.89w
57.4=1056.76w
57.5=1061.64w
57.6=1066.53w
57.7=1071.44w
57.8=1076.37w
57.9=1081.31w
58=1086.27w
58.1=1091.25w
58.2=1096.24w
58.3=1101.24w
58.4=1106.27w
58.5=1111.31w
58.6=1116.36w
58.7=1121.43w
58.8=1126.52w
58.9=1131.63w
59=1136.75w
59.1=1141.88w
59.2=1147.03w
59.3=1152.20w
59.4=1157.39w
59.5=1162.59w
59.6=1167.81w
59.7=1173.04w
59.8=1178.29w
59.9=1183.56w
60=1188.85w
60.1=1194.15w
60.2=1199.46w
60.3=1204.80w
60.4=1210.15w
60.5=1215.52w
60.6=1220.90w
60.7=1226.30w
60.8=1231.72w
60.9=1237.15w
61=1242.60w
61.1=1248.07w
61.2=1253.56w
61.3=1259.06w
61.4=1264.58w
61.5=1270.11w
61.6=1275.66w
61.7=1281.23w
61.8=1286.82w
61.9=1292.42w
62=1298.04w
62.1=1303.68w
62.2=1309.34w
62.3=1315.01w
62.4=1320.70w
62.5=1326.40w
62.6=1332.13w
62.7=1337.87w
62.8=1343.63w
62.9=1349.40w
63=1355.19w
63.1=1361.00w
63.2=1366.83w
63.3=1372.68w
63.4=1378.54w
63.5=1384.42w
63.6=1390.32w
63.7=1396.23w
63.8=1402.16w
63.9=1408.11w
64=1414.08w
64.1=1420.07w
64.2=1426.07w
64.3=1432.09w
64.4=1438.13w
64.5=1444.19w
64.6=1450.26w
64.7=1456.35w
64.8=1462.46w
64.9=1468.59w
65=1474.74w
65.1=1480.90w
65.2=1487.08w
65.3=1493.28w
65.4=1499.50w
65.5=1505.74w
65.6=1511.99w
65.7=1518.26w
65.8=1524.55w
65.9=1530.86w
66=1537.19w
66.1=1543.53w
66.2=1549.89w
66.3=1556.27w
66.4=1562.67w
66.5=1569.09w
66.6=1575.53w
66.7=1581.98w
66.8=1588.45w
66.9=1594.95w
67=1601.45w
67.1=1607.98w
67.2=1614.53w
67.3=1621.09w
67.4=1627.68w
67.5=1634.28w
67.6=1640.90w
67.7=1647.54w
67.8=1654.20w
67.9=1660.88w
68=1667.57w
68.1=1674.29w
68.2=1681.02w
68.3=1687.77w
68.4=1694.54w
68.5=1701.33w
68.6=1708.14w
68.7=1714.97w
68.8=1721.82w
68.9=1728.68w
69=1735.57w
69.1=1742.47w
69.2=1749.39w
69.3=1756.34w
69.4=1763.30w
69.5=1770.28w
69.6=1777.28w
69.7=1784.29w
69.8=1791.33w
69.9=1798.39w
70=1805.46w

 

[frenchyge]

What I'm wondering now is about the idea of FTP being "elastic" - if you deliberately detrain it in the immediate off season, then do a couple of months of lower intensity endurance work before targeting FTP for quite a short period preseason. Get another season under your belt, detrain, LSD, repeat over the years.

So your FTP might "evolve" as follows:

end of season 1: 350
mid off season: 280
preseason: 355
end of season 2: 360
mid off season: 290
preseason: 360
end of season 3: 365

etc etc.

That's pretty much what I see in my own ability, because I do have periods completely off the bike in order to re-prioritize my life. You could think of FTP being 'elastic' or just understand that certain adaptations are fairly quickly developed and short-lived (guessing here, but maybe: increased plasma volume, greater mitochondrial enzymes or density, or heart stroke volume?) and others take longer to develop and disappear (say: fiber hypertrophy, muscle capillarization?). The longer lasting changes survive the off-season and build from year to year, while the shorter ones rise and fall with current training load. Still, with each successive year of quality training it gets easier to reach last year's level because the tracks are already partially laid, and then our work builds from there.

 

[frenchyge]

70=1805.46w

Whoo-hoo! Now we're talking.

 

[wiredued]

LOL I think Lucy is the only one who could use those numbers.

Whoo-hoo! Now we're talking.

 

[dhk2]

That's pretty much what I see in my own ability, because I do have periods completely off the bike in order to re-prioritize my life. You could think of FTP being 'elastic' or just understand that certain adaptations are fairly quickly developed and short-lived (guessing here, but maybe: increased plasma volume, greater mitochondrial enzymes or density, or heart stroke volume?) and others take longer to develop and disappear (say: fiber hypertrophy, muscle capillarization?). The longer lasting changes survive the off-season and build from year to year, while the shorter ones rise and fall with current training load. Still, with each successive year of quality training it gets easier to reach last year's level because the tracks are already partially laid, and then our work builds from there.

+1. Believe real adaptations and progress takes years, not just a few months, but the long-term gains make it easier and more fun to come back year after year. As a result, seems to me that periods off the bike, or riding at low sustainment levels can be ultimately healthy and productive, particularly for those of us who want to stay in the game for the long run.