Considering purchasing my second 'bent--Input requested.

[Bill Anton]

Got over 4000 miles now on my R-40, and I still love it. My legs are probably in the best shape of
my life, but I still got dropped Saturday morning by the roadie pace line (granted, these were the
three fastest of the go-fast hammerheads in the pack). I'll probably keep the R-40 because IMHO
it's hard to beat as a rugged platform for loaded touring. But I'm thinking about buying a go-fast
bike to park next to it. I'm sold on the SWB platform. I'm thinking about a "high racer" style
bike, with a relatively high BB, dual 650C wheels and maybe even an M5-style seat. Considering the
R-64 Sabre, Bacchetta Corsa, Volae Club. I just ordered a Mueller fairing for my R-40 (can't
believe I spent $420 on a piece of lexan). So this may tip the scales in favor of the Sabre, since
this fairing fits "all Vision SWB bikes." I wonder if it might work on the Volae as well, with its
hands-by-the-knees OSS.

I'm in no hurry to make this purchase. In fact, in the mean time, I'm thinking about doing a little
experimentation on the R-40. According to my measurements, installing a 26" front wheel and fork
will yield a BB height of 32.5" and a seat height of 27"--that's 8.5" higher up front and 3" higher
on the seat than stock. It will also increase headset angle by 9 degrees. Has anybody else tried
this mod? Will it destroy my headset?

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

 

[Cletus D . Lee]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Got over 4000 miles now on my R-40, and I still love it... But I'm thinking about buying a go-fast
> bike to park next to it. I'm sold on the SWB platform. I'm thinking about a "high racer" style
> bike, with a relatively high BB, dual 650C wheels and maybe even an M5-style seat. Considering the
> R-64 Sabre, Bacchetta Corsa, Volae Club.

I've not seen enough evidence to vote on the Club, but Bacchetta is enjoying a good track record.
Your legs are longer than mine and unlike me you should have no problem fitting a Corsa.

It would be a very interesting challenge to see a Sabre go head to head to head with a Corsa, an
Aero and a Volae Club. That is one shoot-out that I might be willing to pay money to see.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

 

[Bill Hole]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Bill
Anton) wrote:

> In fact, in the mean time, I'm thinking about doing a little experimentation on the R-40.
> According to my measurements, installing a 26" front wheel and fork will yield a BB height of
> 32.5" and a seat height of 27"--that's 8.5" higher up front and 3" higher on the seat than stock.
> It will also increase headset angle by 9 degrees. Has anybody else tried this mod? Will it destroy
> my headset?
>
> Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

One of my biking buddies has done this to his R-40. We call it the Frankenbike, except when he's
having problems with it. Then it's the F'nbike.

He used a standard road fork and used a bunch of hose clamps to hold the handlebars to it. Looks
scary to me. He likes the way it handles and feels that it's faster, although there is some added
fork flop. But it'll never be as fast as a Bacchetta or Sabre.

Bill Hole Rotator Pursuit BikeE E2

--
Bill Hole [email protected]

 

[Bill Anton]

I haven't had the chance to try this mod yet, but when/if I do, it'll be mainly to see how my feet
and circulatory system can handle the higher BB. I.e., if foot numbness is a problem (it isn't on
the stock R-40) then there's no point investing in a Strada or Sabre. Plus it's an easy and
reversible mod. As long as I stick with the OSS, I'm pretty sure the hose clamps can stay on the car
radiator. Shoot, if I get the same kind of rim/tire as the back and paint the fork red to match the
bike, I just might fool a few (ignorant) people into thinking it's the new Vision "XR-40" or perhaps
the "R-63 Sabrito." ... In summation, that Volae Club is looking better all the time. Too bad I have
to go all the way to the middle of Wisconsin to try one out before I order.

Does the M5 seat realy make that much of a difference? Rolf seems to think so.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

Bill Hole <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Bill
> Anton) wrote:
>
> > In fact, in the mean time, I'm thinking about doing a little experimentation on the R-40.
> > According to my measurements, installing a 26" front wheel and fork will yield a BB height of
> > 32.5" and a seat height of 27"--that's 8.5" higher up front and 3" higher on the seat than
> > stock. It will also increase headset angle by 9 degrees. Has anybody else tried this mod? Will
> > it destroy my headset?
> >
> > Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX, USA
>
> One of my biking buddies has done this to his R-40. We call it the Frankenbike, except when he's
> having problems with it. Then it's the F'nbike.
>
> He used a standard road fork and used a bunch of hose clamps to hold the handlebars to it. Looks
> scary to me. He likes the way it handles and feels that it's faster, although there is some added
> fork flop. But it'll never be as fast as a Bacchetta or Sabre.
>
> Bill Hole Rotator Pursuit BikeE E2

 

[Steve Christens]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>Got over 4000 miles now on my R-40, and I still love it. My legs are probably in the best shape of
>my life, but I still got dropped Saturday morning by the roadie pace line (granted, these were the
>three fastest of the go-fast hammerheads in the pack). I'll probably keep the R-40 because IMHO
>it's hard to beat as a rugged platform for loaded touring. But I'm thinking about buying a go-fast
>bike to park next to it. I'm sold on the SWB platform. I'm thinking about a "high racer" style
>bike, with a relatively high BB, dual 650C wheels and maybe even an M5-style seat. Considering the
>R-64 Sabre, Bacchetta Corsa, Volae Club. I just ordered a Mueller fairing for my R-40 (can't
>believe I spent $420 on a piece of lexan). So this may tip the scales in favor of the Sabre, since
>this fairing fits "all Vision SWB bikes." I wonder if it might work on the Volae as well, with its
>hands-by-the-knees OSS.
>
>I'm in no hurry to make this purchase. In fact, in the mean time, I'm thinking about doing a little
>experimentation on the R-40.

My wife and I now ride bents with the new Velocity Thracian wheelsets, and we are very impressed
with these wheels. They seem to make a huge difference in both acceleration and rolling resistance,
though of course we have to factor in the Stelvio tires too. So if you are experimenting with
improving your Vision, you might consider ordering a set of these wheels. The Hostelle shop has
them, and said they could redish the rear wheel to fit a Vision for just $15. I'd love to try them
on my Vision VR-42.

Steve Christensen

 

[Bill Anton]

[email protected] (scsolomo) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill -- if you are looking at fast bikes, have you considered the Reynolds T-bone? I'd be
> interested in your thoughts.

Thanks for the suggestion, and no, I hadn't considered a Reynolds until you mentioned it. I checked
out George Reynold's offerings on his web site, but alas, no 650C wheels, and the dual-26 Wishbone
is temporarily out of production. Also, these bikes are much lower than what I'm looking for. Thanks
for the suggestion, though.

Bill Anton

>
>
> [email protected] (Bill Anton) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > Got over 4000 miles now on my R-40, and I still love it. My legs are probably in the best shape
> > of my life, but I still got dropped Saturday morning by the roadie pace line (granted, these
> > were the three fastest of the go-fast hammerheads in the pack). I'll probably keep the R-40
> > because IMHO it's hard to beat as a rugged platform for loaded touring. But I'm thinking about
> > buying a go-fast bike to park next to it. I'm sold on the SWB platform. I'm thinking about a
> > "high racer" style bike, with a relatively high BB, dual 650C wheels and maybe even an M5-style
> > seat. Considering the R-64 Sabre, Bacchetta Corsa, Volae Club. I just ordered a Mueller fairing
> > for my R-40 (can't believe I spent $420 on a piece of lexan). So this may tip the scales in
> > favor of the Sabre, since this fairing fits "all Vision SWB bikes." I wonder if it might work on
> > the Volae as well, with its hands-by-the-knees OSS.
> >
> > I'm in no hurry to make this purchase. In fact, in the mean time, I'm thinking about doing a
> > little experimentation on the R-40. According to my measurements, installing a 26" front wheel
> > and fork will yield a BB height of 32.5" and a seat height of 27"--that's 8.5" higher up front
> > and 3" higher on the seat than stock. It will also increase headset angle by 9 degrees. Has
> > anybody else tried this mod? Will it destroy my headset?
> >
> > Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

 

[Bill Anton]

Steve Christensen <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> My wife and I now ride bents with the new Velocity Thracian wheelsets, and we are very impressed
> with these wheels. They seem to make a huge difference in both acceleration and rolling
> resistance, though of course we have to factor in the Stelvio tires too. So if you are
> experimenting with improving your Vision, you might consider ordering a set of these wheels. The
> Hostelle shop has them, and said they could redish the rear wheel to fit a Vision for just $15.
> I'd love to try them on my Vision VR-42.
>
> Steve Christensen

Steve,

Thanks for the tip. That may very well be my next upgrade after I'm done paying for the fairing I
just bought. Rolf says these wheels can save about a pound of rotational weight--now that's
something. Plus they're more aerodynamic. Still, I can't help but wonder how durable they are with
only 16 spokes. Who knows? With some trick wheels, a fairing, and an M5 seat (if I can get mounts
for it) I might not need or want a new bike.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB, OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Anton wrote:
> ... Thanks for the tip. That may very well be my next upgrade after I'm done paying for the
> fairing I just bought. Rolf says these wheels can save about a pound of rotational weight--now
> that's something....

Yes it is: 444,820 dyne
453.6 gram-force
454.17 poundals
455.448 newtons .4536 kilopond (kgm-force)

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

 

[Bill Anton]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill Anton wrote:
> > ... Thanks for the tip. That may very well be my next upgrade after I'm done paying for the
> > fairing I just bought. Rolf says these wheels can save about a pound of rotational weight--now
> > that's something....
>
> Yes it is: 444,820 dyne
> 453.6 gram-force
> 32.17 poundals
> 4.448 newtons .4536 kilopond (kgm-force)
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Tom, it's been 20 years since I took University Physics (and I got a "C"). Could you shed some light
on the units above and their significance for a cyclist? To put it in practical terms, how much
difference would these wheels make in acceleration, given a constant power output from the rider?

Bill Anton

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Anton wrote:
>
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Bill Anton wrote:
> > > ... Thanks for the tip. That may very well be my next upgrade after I'm done paying for the
> > > fairing I just bought. Rolf says these wheels can save about a pound of rotational weight--now
> > > that's something....
> >
> > Yes it is: 444,820 dyne
> > 453.6 gram-force
> > 32.17 poundals
> > 4.448 newtons .4536 kilopond (kgm-force)
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> Tom, it's been 20 years since I took University Physics (and I got a "C"). Could you shed some
> light on the units above and their significance for a cyclist? To put it in practical terms,
> how much difference would these wheels make in acceleration, given a constant power output from
> the rider?

These wheels would provide ALMOST the same increase in acceleration as removing a pound of
non-rotational weight from the bicycle. [1]

[1] Conventional "wisdom" dies hard, even if it is contradicted by physics.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

 

[Bill Anton]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill Anton wrote:
> >
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Bill Anton wrote:
> > > > ... Thanks for the tip. That may very well be my next upgrade after I'm done paying for the
> > > > fairing I just bought. Rolf says these wheels can save about a pound of rotational
> > > > weight--now that's something....
> > >
> > > Yes it is: 444,820 dyne
> > > 453.6 gram-force
> > > 32.17 poundals
> > > 4.448 newtons .4536 kilopond (kgm-force)
> > >
> > > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
> >
> > Tom, it's been 20 years since I took University Physics (and I got a "C"). Could you shed some
> > light on the units above and their significance for a cyclist? To put it in practical terms, how
> > much difference would these wheels make in acceleration, given a constant power output from the
> > rider?
>
> These wheels would provide ALMOST the same increase in acceleration as removing a pound of
> non-rotational weight from the bicycle. [1]
>
> [1] Conventional "wisdom" dies hard, even if it is contradicted by physics.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

So, what you're saying is that paying $360 for a new set of Velocity Thracian wheels gives me the
same performance boost (ignoring aerodynamics for a moment) as pouring out one of my water bottles?
That sounds kinda' weak.

Frankly, for the kind of riding I do (mostly long distance on country roads, with some city rides)
acceleration is not of paramount importance. Minimizing drag (friction and aerodynamic), however, is
VERY important, as is durability of wheels, since Lubbock has it's share of crappy pavement.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB, OSS Lubbock, TX, USA

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Anton wrote:
>
> So, what you're saying is that paying $360 for a new set of Velocity Thracian wheels gives me the
> same performance boost (ignoring aerodynamics for a moment) as pouring out one of my water
> bottles? That sounds kinda' weak.
>
> Frankly, for the kind of riding I do (mostly long distance on country roads, with some city rides)
> acceleration is not of paramount importance. Minimizing drag (friction and aerodynamic), however,
> is VERY important, as is durability of wheels, since Lubbock has it's share of crappy pavement.

Wheels contribute a large portion of the overall aerodynamic drag on a bicycle. In most cases, a
bicycle with heavier but more aerodynamic wheels will even be faster on fairly significant
uphill grades. [1] So the Thracian wheel set may well improve your performance compared to the
stock wheels.

[1] < http://www.analyticcycling.com/menus/../WheelsClimb_Page.html >

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

 

[Rick Moll]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Bill Anton wrote:
>>... Minimizing drag (friction and aerodynamic), however, is VERY important, as is durability of
>>wheels, since Lubbock has it's share of crappy pavement.
>
>
> Wheels contribute a large portion of the overall aerodynamic drag on a bicycle. In most cases, a
> bicycle with heavier but more aerodynamic wheels will even be faster on fairly significant
> uphill grades. [1] So the Thracian wheel set may well improve your performance compared to the
> stock wheels.
>
> [1] < http://www.analyticcycling.com/menus/../WheelsClimb_Page.html >

I think the weight they used for the "32 spoke standard" wheel looks bogus. Maybe they assumed a
heavy touring tire on the 32 spoke wheel, then compared it to the Specialized tri-spoke wheel with
18mm race tires?

If you put more reasonable weights in for the "standard" wheel, it blows the heavy composite wheel
away at the top of the hill!

Either they where tweaking the comparison to make a point, or I'm just being stupid about
something here.

But the other quality in the wheel the original poster was looking for was "durability". I wouldn't
consider the low spoke count Velocity Thracian wheels very high on the durability scale. That's why
when I purchased my Volae Team, I ordered it without the Thracian wheelset.

With spoked wheels there are a whole range of components that can be chosen that allow you to trade
off durability, aerodynamics, weight, cost, etc. I built some wheels using Mavic CXP33 rims,
Dura-Ace hubs, and double butted spokes (28 front, 32 rear). My resulting wheelset came out around
120 grams heavier than the Tracian, but they should be more durable.

Rick Moll

 

[Bill Anton]

Rick Moll <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Snip <

> But the other quality in the wheel the original poster was looking for was "durability". I
> wouldn't consider the low spoke count Velocity Thracian wheels very high on the durability scale.
> That's why when I purchased my Volae Team, I ordered it without the Thracian wheelset.
>
> With spoked wheels there are a whole range of components that can be chosen that allow you to
> trade off durability, aerodynamics, weight, cost, etc. I built some wheels using Mavic CXP33 rims,
> Dura-Ace hubs, and double butted spokes (28 front, 32 rear). My resulting wheelset came out around
> 120 grams heavier than the Tracian, but they should be more durable.
>
> Rick Moll

You have an excellent point there, Rick. I've heard lots of raves about the new Velocity Thracian
wheelsets, but they haven't been out long enough for their long-term durability to be known. I
wonder what they'll look like after 2000 miles of inner-city commuting?

After 4000+ miles, one of the things I really appreciate about my Vision is the wheels. Nuthin'
fancy, just 32-spokers, aluminum Sun rims and steel spokes around some RX-100 hubs. But in 4000+
miles I have made a minor adjustment to the spokes ONCE. Now it's time again for some very minor
truing. Back in my road bike days it seems I was always messing with my skinny Mavics, even having
to have the rear rim replaced due to stress cracks in the rim near the spoke holes.

As for rotational weight, I can save over 200 grams per wheel (if Hostel Shoppe's advertized weights
are accurate) just by switching from Schwalbe Marathons to Stelvios--they were shipped to me today
Flats are not nearly as annoying as bent wheels; hopefully I'll have neither problem.

Bill Anton 2001 Vision R-40 SWB, OSS Lubbock, TX, USA