Red means stop, ********

[Aeek]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:20:01 +1000, "beerwolf"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I quite like the Canberra model of an extensive off-road cycle
>network, plus every footpath being shared (with priority for peds).

I used to like them but then the road rules changed and we are to
dismount for pedestrian crossings. Guess where many path crossing are?
Including some earlier lobbied for by cyclists! Shattered the network.

I'm not going to dismount and I prefer to obey the law so I mostly
ride the road. I find I prefer the road. So much more space!

I prefer the roads periods of challenge and periods of calm as the
lights chunk the traffic, to the constant but lower concentration of
the paths not to mention oncoming cyclists.

 

[Plodder]

--
Frank
[email protected]
Drop DACKS to reply
"dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eb8dsd$dt5$1@news-

SNIP preceding stuff

> Well yeah I absolutely agree. Sadly about 90% of drivers on the road
> would have no clue without lights. One occasionally comes across some
> numbnuts who just props at a set of traffic lights that are out.
>
> BUT I did have an opposite experience once. Rush hour on a friday.
> And there was a widespread blackout. Every set of lights was out. And
> we did the trip from North melb to Hawthorn in a truck amazingly quick.
> I think we must have averaged 40 kph or so. Would just come up to a
> set of lights. Have a look and if that gap was big enough go. Just
> like everyone else in front of us did. It was amazing and so unusual.
>
> Thinking about it afterwords I just decided that random chance had
> determined that only good drivers were on that road (mostly victoria st)
> that day. It will never happen again. Sort of gives you hope tho.
>
> Dave

I think most people are reasonably good drivers when they think the have to
be - like when all the lights are out. In normal circumstances we (I include
myself) rely too much on traffic control systems and not enough on our
skills. There' a swag of stuff behind this
(dependent/independent/interdependent phases, with levels of protection
increasing with phase change, for instance). I speculate that many people
arrived home after their commute that evening more tired than they would
usually be because they had to apply more thinking and concentration energy.
It sort of indicates that most people have sufficient skills but the
controls make us lazy.

me

 

[Plodder]

--
Frank
[email protected]
Drop DACKS to reply
"beerwolf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ray wrote:
> >
> > I agree entirely. I spent a bit of time in Germany last year and the
> > respect that cylists have there is a pleasant surprise.
> > Even on footpath cycling is usually allowed, provided you take it easy -
> > most convenient for foreigners like me who are not exactly sure where
> > they are going!
> > The rush rush rush way of our roads is not cyling friendly at all.
> > Obviously the generally narrower streets are an encouraging aspect in
> > keep vehicle speeds down.
> >
> > Even burly German truck drivers will stop their vehicle well before you
> > get to a road crossing if they see you coming along the defined bike
> > path/lane. I know here you'd be a piece of roadkill in the same
> > situation.
> >
> > We have a long long way to go.
> >
> > Oh yeah they don't need to run redlights either, as the bike lanes do
> > get preference at times!
>
> I visited Berlin a few years ago (walking, not cycling), and quickly
> learned that Berlin cyclists are not tolerant of stupid foreign peds
> wandering onto those pink bricked strips beside the footpaths.
> I heard some interesting new German words ....
>
> I also took one of those guided walking tours of Berlin that they
> have for visitors. Our guide was an Aussie expat, who told us to
> obey the red lights and not even think about jaywalking. He said:
> "Berlin drivers will run you down in a heartbeat if you are crossing
> against a red light. And *you* will be held responsible".
> Yes, it's anecdotal. I don't know if it's true. But I never jaywalked
> while I was there, and didn't see anyone else do it either.
>
> --
> beerwolf (remove numbers from email address)

I do know the German cops don't take kindly to cyclists popping through red
lights. Last year I arrived in Munich after a few weeks cycling in Italy
(where road rules seem to exist only so fault can be layed when something
happens!) and had developed the habit of darting through lights when safe
(normal in Italy). Within an hour off the train, back on my bike, in Munich,
I was stopped twice by the cops for running lights (unthinking habit - not
any sort of subversive codswallop!). They were stern enough for me to
unlearn my habits pretty quickly!

me

 

[Plodder]

--
Frank
[email protected]
Drop DACKS to reply
"Euan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> beerwolf wrote:
> > Ray wrote:
> >> I agree entirely. I spent a bit of time in Germany last year and the
> >> respect that cylists have there is a pleasant surprise.
> >> Even on footpath cycling is usually allowed, provided you take it
easy -
> >> most convenient for foreigners like me who are not exactly sure where
> >> they are going!
> >> The rush rush rush way of our roads is not cyling friendly at all.
> >> Obviously the generally narrower streets are an encouraging aspect in
> >> keep vehicle speeds down.
> >>
> >> Even burly German truck drivers will stop their vehicle well before you
> >> get to a road crossing if they see you coming along the defined bike
> >> path/lane. I know here you'd be a piece of roadkill in the same
> >> situation.
> >>
> >> We have a long long way to go.
> >>
> >> Oh yeah they don't need to run redlights either, as the bike lanes do
> >> get preference at times!
> >
> > I visited Berlin a few years ago (walking, not cycling), and quickly
> > learned that Berlin cyclists are not tolerant of stupid foreign peds
> > wandering onto those pink bricked strips beside the footpaths.
> > I heard some interesting new German words ....
>
> To learn more about segregated cycling and why generally they're a bad
> thing, consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities
>
> I'd suggest that history indicates the future of cycling should not lie
> in segregated facilities, at least not the model adopted by the Germans.
>
> > I also took one of those guided walking tours of Berlin that they
> > have for visitors. Our guide was an Aussie expat, who told us to
> > obey the red lights and not even think about jaywalking. He said:
> > "Berlin drivers will run you down in a heartbeat if you are crossing
> > against a red light. And *you* will be held responsible".
> > Yes, it's anecdotal. I don't know if it's true. But I never jaywalked
> > while I was there, and didn't see anyone else do it either.
>
> I spent 7 years there, even p*ssed out my tree I didn't jaywalk and
> didn't see anyone else do it either. Boy did I look like a lemon when I
> got back to the UK and waited for the green man at every intersection.
> --
> Cheers
> Euan

I was quite comfortable with the German model, mainly, I think, because it's
supported by pretty good driver behaviour and a lot of integration with
motorised traffic (yeah I come back to the idea of integration vs
separation). For example, look at the T junction diagramme near the urban
roads section in the article. Note the "stop" road marking is level with the
continuing road. In Germany, the "stop" line is almost always before the
cyle lane, giving priority to bikes as simply another lane of continuing
traffic. When drivers are used to that idea they also tend not to turn right
or left into the terminating road if the traffic (read bike lane) is moving
across their path in the same way as they tend not to turn when there is
motor traffic in the other lane.

A simple change like moving the "stop" line can have a pretty big impact...

me

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> EuanB wrote:
> > [email protected] Wrote:
>
> >> Sheesh, can we cringe any more into our corner?
>
> > That depends on your perspective. I'm quite glad that motorised
> > traffic is controlled by traffic lights, it makes my life a lot
> > easier. I shudder at the thought of peak hour traffic in St Kilda
> > Road with no traffic lights, the price I pay for having cars
> > controlled for everyone's benefit is really quite small. The benefit
> > I'd gain from being allowed to ride through red lights, well I can't
> > see many upsisdes but I can see a lot of downsides so I'll quite
> > happily do what the lights tell me.
> >
> > Far from cringing I'm the one making good use of the break to have a
> > good long suck on my bidon, maybe nibble on something etc etc.
>
> <polite applause>
>
> Theo

I like red lights just after cresting a hill - when I need a rest but am
too damn stubborn to admit it ;-)

Tam

 

[TimC]

On 2006-08-08, Plodder (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> "Euan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I spent 7 years there, even p*ssed out my tree I didn't jaywalk and
>> didn't see anyone else do it either. Boy did I look like a lemon when I
>> got back to the UK and waited for the green man at every intersection.
>
> I was quite comfortable with the German model, mainly, I think, because it's
> supported by pretty good driver behaviour and a lot of integration with
> motorised traffic (yeah I come back to the idea of integration vs
> separation). For example, look at the T junction diagramme near the urban
> roads section in the article. Note the "stop" road marking is level with the
> continuing road. In Germany, the "stop" line is almost always before the
> cyle lane, giving priority to bikes as simply another lane of continuing
> traffic. When drivers are used to that idea they also tend not to turn right
> or left into the terminating road if the traffic (read bike lane) is moving
> across their path in the same way as they tend not to turn when there is
> motor traffic in the other lane.
>
> A simple change like moving the "stop" line can have a pretty big impact...

In Melbourne, if we put the stop line a metre back from the
intersection, we might just be able to get cars not to edge their
noses a metre into the cycle lane and first lane.

--
TimC
According to the latest official figures, 43% of all statistics
are totally worthless.

 

[dave]

Plodder wrote:
> --
> Frank
> [email protected]
> Drop DACKS to reply
> "dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eb8dsd$dt5$1@news-
>
> SNIP preceding stuff
>
>
>>Well yeah I absolutely agree. Sadly about 90% of drivers on the road
>>would have no clue without lights. One occasionally comes across some
>>numbnuts who just props at a set of traffic lights that are out.
>>
>>BUT I did have an opposite experience once. Rush hour on a friday.
>>And there was a widespread blackout. Every set of lights was out. And
>>we did the trip from North melb to Hawthorn in a truck amazingly quick.
>> I think we must have averaged 40 kph or so. Would just come up to a
>>set of lights. Have a look and if that gap was big enough go. Just
>>like everyone else in front of us did. It was amazing and so unusual.
>>
>>Thinking about it afterwords I just decided that random chance had
>>determined that only good drivers were on that road (mostly victoria st)
>>that day. It will never happen again. Sort of gives you hope tho.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> I think most people are reasonably good drivers when they think the have to
> be - like when all the lights are out. In normal circumstances we (I include
> myself) rely too much on traffic control systems and not enough on our
> skills. There' a swag of stuff behind this
> (dependent/independent/interdependent phases, with levels of protection
> increasing with phase change, for instance). I speculate that many people
> arrived home after their commute that evening more tired than they would
> usually be because they had to apply more thinking and concentration energy.
> It sort of indicates that most people have sufficient skills but the
> controls make us lazy.
>
> me
>
>
I think thats absolutely right. But I think that some people are way way
out of their depth when the rest of us are running on autopilot. And so
normally if all the lights failed those few people (and it only takes 2
to make a traffic jam) would come to grief allong with traffic flow.

By random luck this one trip lacked any really useless drivers

Dave

 

[cfsmtb]

Apologies for grave-digging this thread, but are there any mortifying reflections from anyone?

Now I must really get some rest, have too much to do.

 

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:14:40 +1000
cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Apologies for grave-digging this thread, but are there any mortifying
> reflections from anyone?

The arguments I've seen that cyclists should be able to run red lights
are a) cyclists are capable of making such judgement calls reliably and
b) that they won't do any damage if they get it wrong but instead will
be damaged themselves so they have good reason not to get it wrong.

As mfhor said "not appropriate signals for cyclists" although he
didn't say what would be, or why not.

Now, those who say cyclists should be able to disobey red lights, is
this a one off thing that should be ignored because no system is
perfect, or is it a refutation of those two ideas?

hello? mfhor? Care to explain your view on this?

What would be an appropriate signal for a cyclist that would have
prevented this? Would any signal prevent it, given that the bod in
question was disobeying that one, presumably because he believed a),
b) or both?

To me, the problem isn't the signal. The problem is using a road for
a purpose it is ill suited to given the other road users. Red lights
mean the bunch can't do what they want to do, them doing what they
want to do is a problem for other road users.

So what is the solution? If, for example, the road was closed to
cross traffic and peds for 2 hours from 6am to 8am once a month? A
velodrome? A police escort, paid for by a $5 donation from each
rider, collected how?

Zebee

Zebee

 

[Shane Stanley]

In article <[email protected]>,
Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:

> So what is the solution?

How about: "Red means stop, ********".

--
Shane Stanley

 

[cfsmtb]

Perhaps gravedigging might have not been the best possible choice of word.

Neither is being a smartarse, the term is commonly known for resurrecting an old thread.

fyi - on Wheels of Justice there is an an overview of Bicycle Rules
and Road Laws.

Australian Road Authorities and Bicycle Rules
http://www.woj.com.au/australian-road-authority-links/

Australian Road Rules: December 1999, this 413 pages, so be wary if
downloading via a dialup connection!
http://www.woj.com.au/AustRoadRulespts1-21.pdf

Letter Writing Guide
http://www.woj.com.au/resources-and-support/letter-writing-guide/

CrankBusters: Debunking Cycling Myths
http://www.woj.com.au/crankbusters/

There's plenty more pages collated if you look at the righthand
margin, also have a look at the categories in which I've been filing
cycling-revelant news articles.

Plenty of resources & information for you to skill yourselves with if
you want to contact the media, or simply inform yourself and others.

 

[blah]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:


> hello? mfhor? Care to explain your view on this?
>

Well, based on his recent form, he won't post for about a year. He'll
trade insults with someone (then everyone), use some big words ("well,
they're not big to me; you must be illiterate!") to impress us all then
disappear in a huff for another year.

 

[dave]

cfsmtb wrote:
> Apologies for grave-digging this thread, but are there any mortifying
> reflections from anyone?
>
> Now I must really get some rest, have too much to do.
>
>
Perhaps gravedigging might have not been the best possible choice of word.