Schiavo debate: Ploy for evangelical vote in 06'?

[davidmc]

"President Bush rushed back from his Texas ranch for a chance to sign the measure that Republicans view as an opportunity to strengthen their support among religious conservatives ahead of next year’s congressional elections."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079
This history is worth noting: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-02-25-schiavo-eating-disorder_x.htm
Even "Mr. Conservative" himself (George F. Will) said "This (congressional meddling) turns 2000 years of common law on its head. The idea that a man & wife are one &, as such, have the right to make life & death decisions on their own."
Rep. Jim Moran, D-Va.(From my state), said Sunday that Schiavo and members of her family have “become political pawns to larger political issues.”
Bioethicist Art Caplan on the Schiavo case: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7231440/

What say you

 

[limerickman]

This is the case of the lady who suffered heart failure and has been in a vegetative state for the past 15 years and is living on artificial life support ?

Her husband wants to take her off life support - but her family want life support to continue.
At least that's my understanding.
(if I am wrong about the circumstances - apologies).

I think it is a very difficult case to be honest.
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest.

I suppose it's down to a question of quality of life and the chances of there ever being a recovery.

I have no doubt that the politicians are interferring in this case to try to gain some political capital too.

 

[zapper]

"President Bush rushed back from his Texas ranch for a chance to sign the measure that Republicans view as an opportunity to strengthen their support among religious conservatives ahead of next year’s congressional elections."What say you

I say that you and your gang of life grabbing liberals are once again showing how much you respect life...I find it ironic that in one breath you "act" concerned about soldiers meeting their death in Iraq yet feel nothing about killing innocent babies or this poor woman.. Do YOU know what it feels like to starve to death? How about not having any water for a week. I watched my father in-law die from a brain tumor and even though he was in a coma for the last week of his life, we provided food and water...

Peabody, I invite you to stay out of your doggy bowl for a week and come back and report on the experience...It shouldn't be political, this is about life period! There is a reason he wants to kill her, then have her body burned to ashes...I think he is responsible for her condition....aside from that, he hasn't exactly helped her recovery along...

I invite you to read below:


A certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would allow only a feeding tube.

Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified:
"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag.
"[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely."
Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."
Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday, "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray."
Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'"
When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden.
"Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that ***** gonna die?'"

 

[davidmc]

This is the case of the lady who suffered heart failure and has been in a vegetative state for the past 15 years and is living on artificial life support ?

Her husband wants to take her off life support - but her family want life support to continue.
At least that's my understanding.
(if I am wrong about the circumstances - apologies).

I think it is a very difficult case to be honest.
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest.

I suppose it's down to a question of quality of life and the chances of there ever being a recovery.

I have no doubt that the politicians are interferring in this case to try to gain some political capital too.

I am not an expert but the courts in Florida found the husband to be within his rights as the sole decision maker as he should be. She got into the vegetative state she is in by malnutrition brought on by bulimia. She was starving herself to stay thin & the results are that she can only breath & make a few facial expressions. This is "existence" but not "life". Its not like she's in a coma & there is a possibility of her coming out of it one day. The part of her brain that is associated w/ free thought & individuality is gone & can never return. I suspect it might have to do w/ her families (especially her brother who lives in a monastery/cloister ?)religion & the popes proclamation inre euthanasia & the Republicans willingness to meddle in their own presidents brothers state (Good ole' Florida). Conservatism is supposed to be about states rights & in this case, the state has spoken on more than one occasion, mind you, in the husbands favor. Bush's brother Jeb fought it in the court's & lost. The Repub's bash federalism EXCEPT when it fulfills their political ambitions (garnering votes from the Evangelical's). Disgraceful.I'm just going to have to get used to the fact that this country is, in fact, Jesusland.

 

[limerickman]

I am not an expert but the courts in Florida found the husband to be within his rights as the sole decision maker as he should be. She got into the vegetative state she is in by malnutrition brought on by bulimia. She was starving herself to stay thin & the results are that she can only breath & make a few facial expressions. This is "existence" but not "life". Its not like she's in a coma & there is a possibility of her coming out of it one day. The part of her brain that is associated w/ free thought & individuality is gone & can never return. I suspect it might have to do w/ her families (especially her brother who lives in a monastery/cloister ?)religion & the popes proclamation inre euthanasia & the Republicans willingness to meddle in their own presidents brothers state (Good ole' Florida). Conservatism is supposed to be about states rights & in this case, the state has spoken on more than one occasion, mind you, in the husbands favor. Bush's brother Jeb fought it in the corts & lost. The Repub's bash federalism EXCEPT when it fulfills their political ambitions (garnering votes from the Evangelical's). Disgraceful.I'm just going to have to get used to the fact that this country is, in fact, Jesusland.

The question you posed, appeared to be centred around the expediency on behalf of the Bush goverment.

I don't know enough about the case to know if she will have any quality of life or not.
I suspect that she won't have a quality of life - but who knows ?

It is suspicious though that politicians have decided to get involved (on both sides as far as I can discern).

It's difficult to know what is the right thing to do in this case.

Is Bush using this case as a chance to show he's pro-life ?

 

[davidmc]

I say that you and your gang of life grabbing liberals are once again showing how much you respect life...I find it ironic that in one breath you "act" concerned about soldiers meeting their death in Iraq yet feel nothing about killing innocent babies or this poor woman.. Do YOU know what it feels like to starve to death? How about not having any water for a week. I watched my father in-law die from a brain tumor and even though he was in a coma for the last week of his life, we provided food and water...

Peabody, I invite you to stay out of your doggy bowl for a week and come back and report on the experience...It shouldn't be political, this is about life period! There is a reason he wants to kill her, then have her body burned to ashes...I think he is responsible for her condition....aside from that, he hasn't exactly helped her recovery along...

I invite you to read below:


A certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would allow only a feeding tube.

Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified:
"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag.
"[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely."
Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."
Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday, "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray."
Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'"
When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden.
"Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that ***** gonna die?'"

Breathing, swallowing, blinking one's eyes are involuntary actions governed by the brain stem Zapper. They are the reptilian part of the brain. It is an existence not a life. Would you want to spend 30-40 years in a bed staring at the cieling & more importantly who's going to pay for it, YOUR TAXES What say you Judging these witnesses you espouse, it doesn't suprise me coming from a state where there are WEEKLY sightings of Jesus in windowpanes & grilled cheese sandwiches. The reporter must have had to scour the state to find some "pro lifers at any cost". Give me a break. We can just raise taxes to pay for this unprecidented Sunday sessions which might be routine now; at least until the repub's see the election results for 06' not to mention the associated rise in insurance premiums of meddling w/ the courts by congress. I'm sure you won't mind Zap, will you Old Boy? the raising of your taxes, that is. Somebody's got to pay for all of this O/T put in by Delay & Hastert

 

[zapper]

Breathing, swallowing, blinking one's eyes are involuntary actions governed by the brain stem Zapper. They are the reptilian part of the brain. It is an existence not a life. Would you want to spend 30-40 years in a bed staring at the cieling & more importantly who's going to pay for it, YOUR TAXES What say you Judging these witnesses you espouse, it doesn't suprise me coming from a state where there are WEEKLY sightings of Jesus in windowpanes & grilled cheese sandwiches. The reporter must have had to scour the state to find some "pro lifers at any cost". Give me a break. We can just raise taxes to pay for this unprecidented Sunday sessions which might be routine now; at least until the repub's see the election results for 06' not to mention the associated rise in insurance premiums of meddling w/ the courts by congress. I'm sure you won't mind Zap, will you Old Boy? the raising of your taxes, that is. Somebody's got to pay for all of this O/T put in by Delay & Hastert

I'll tell you what, just take my tax dollars that are going to normal, healthy individuals capable of work who are currently sitting on their collective asses and funnel them to people like Terry who can't help themselves...I'm well aware of the doctors report that you cite here but you should also be aware that there are doctors who believe that there is technology available that could help her maybe not be a normal functioning human being but help just the same. You are smoking crack again if you thing this has anything to do with 06...I thought you were smarter than that...Florida law calls for the trial court to decide…One name is clear and it is Judge Greer. If you track the history of this case you will see “Judge Greer Denies” multiple times…over and over…. These liberal judges are the problem, not the Republican party..

Additonally, see below. Oh, don’t tell me these injuries were caused by CPR….

There are an extensive number of focal abnormal areas of nuclide accumulation of intense type. These include, multiple bilateral ribs, the costovestebral aspects of several of the thoracic vestebral bodies, the L1 vestebral body, both sacrolliac joints, the distal right femoral diaphysis, both knees, and both ankles, right greater than left.
... Correlative radiographs are obtained of the lumber spine and of the right femur which reveal compression fracture, minor, superior end plate of L1 and shaggy irregular periosteal ossification along the distal femoral diaphysis and metaphysis primarily ventrally. The patient has a history of trauma, most likely the femoral periosteal reaction reflects a response to a subperiosteal hemorrhage and the activity in L1 correlates perfectly with the compression fracture which is presumably traumatic.
... The presumption is that the other multiple areas of abnormal activity also relate to previous trauma...

(Source) Bone scan on Terri Schiavo March 5, 1991 - not discovered until 2002

 

[davidmc]

Peabody, I invite you to stay out of your doggy bowl for a week and come back and report on the experience...It shouldn't be political, this is about life period! There is a reason he wants to kill her, then have her body burned to ashes...I think he is responsible for her condition....aside from that, he hasn't exactly helped her recovery along...[/b]

I'm not asking for any pat's on the back or medals but, I was a "homeless veteran" for 1 1/2 yrs so I know what its like to go w/o eating (or having a place to lay my head, for that matter), thank you very much. How do you extrapolate her bulimia as being her husbands fault Read my hyperlinks before jumping to conclusions. There are societal norms at work here not just interpersonal. Open any womens magazine & you will see skinny women frolicking @ beaches, parks, malls, ect... All "nitpicking" aside, her condition is inoperable (not like a coma where she could "snap out of it") , a physiological deficiency (brain unable to rec. oxygen when she initially had the stroke) & hence, part of her brain died. The part that contains memories, individuality, ect...Even if it were possible to do brain transplants, she would not be Terry but she would take on the brain donors traits.

 

[davidmc]

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore said the 41-year-old woman’s parents had not established a “substantial likelihood of success” at trial on the merits of their arguments.
Whittemore wrote that Terri Schiavo’s “life and liberty interests” had been protected by Florida courts. Despite “these difficult and time strained circumstances,” he wrote, “this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it.”
But George Felos, an attorney for Michael Schiavo, argued that keeping the woman alive also violated her rights and noted that the case has been aired thoroughly in state courts.
Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly because of a possible potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.
According to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 909 adults taken over the weekend, nearly six in 10 people said they think the feeding tube should be removed and felt they would want to remove it for a child or spouse in the same condition.

 

[limerickman]

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore said the 41-year-old woman’s parents had not established a “substantial likelihood of success” at trial on the merits of their arguments.
Whittemore wrote that Terri Schiavo’s “life and liberty interests” had been protected by Florida courts. Despite “these difficult and time strained circumstances,” he wrote, “this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it.”
But George Felos, an attorney for Michael Schiavo, argued that keeping the woman alive also violated her rights and noted that the case has been aired thoroughly in state courts.
Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly because of a possible potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.
According to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 909 adults taken over the weekend, nearly six in 10 people said they think the feeding tube should be removed and felt they would want to remove it for a child or spouse in the same condition.

This story was covered on Newsnight last night.
It appears that all the Florida cases have said that the likelihood of this unfortunate lady ever recovering, is minimal.
It seems that the verdict to stop life support has been contested and appealed by her family - against her husbands wish to let nature take it's course.

It is a very sad case.

However, in a political sense, I don't think the REpublicans should be expedient and use this case to their own ends.
The legislature and the goverment are separate parts of the democratic process.
Once the politicians pass a piece of legislation - their remit is finished as regards that piece of legislation.
It seems that the Republicans are violating this demarcation.
If the law (judge) says that the this lady should be taken off life support - after rigourous hearing in court - then the politicians have no right to interfere.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

I am not an expert but the courts in Florida found the husband to be within his rights as the sole decision maker as he should be. She got into the vegetative state she is in by malnutrition brought on by bulimia. She was starving herself to stay thin & the results are that she can only breath & make a few facial expressions. This is "existence" but not "life". Its not like she's in a coma & there is a possibility of her coming out of it one day. The part of her brain that is associated w/ free thought & individuality is gone & can never return. I suspect it might have to do w/ her families (especially her brother who lives in a monastery/cloister ?)religion & the popes proclamation inre euthanasia & the Republicans willingness to meddle in their own presidents brothers state (Good ole' Florida). Conservatism is supposed to be about states rights & in this case, the state has spoken on more than one occasion, mind you, in the husbands favor. Bush's brother Jeb fought it in the court's & lost. The Repub's bash federalism EXCEPT when it fulfills their political ambitions (garnering votes from the Evangelical's). Disgraceful.I'm just going to have to get used to the fact that this country is, in fact, Jesusland.

The husband should be the decision maker? Same one that is living with another woman and has already had 2 kids with? Why not divorce the woman and let her parents care for her? Ironic that only her "husband" knows she didn't want to live like this.
States rights? How about the Florida legislature laws that were passed to help this woman, only to have the courts intervene? Thats right. Since the liberal agenda can't get passed they pursue it thru the courts.
Since liberals won't tell us when life begins, why should they be able to tell us when life should end?

 

[snyper0311]

I agree that this is truely a sad case. What I don't understand or hear from anyone is, why would you want to torture this poor lady? Basically, that's what her family is doing by keeping her alive. Doctors have already said that she would NEVER have a chance at coming out of this. She should have died 15 years ago but has been kept alive by her family. I can understand a parents love for their child but at what point do you have to let go? I love my son, but it would hurt me more to know that he has bacically become brain dead and would never come out of this state. I wouldn't let him go through that. Placing politics aside form this case, what can be done for her that already hasn't been tried? All that Bush/government has done is placed his/their nose in something that they have no business in. I think it's SICK that they feel like they can manipulate this womans life for their good.

 

[davidmc]

The husband should be the decision maker? Same one that is living with another woman and has already had 2 kids with? Why not divorce the woman and let her parents care for her? Ironic that only her "husband" knows she didn't want to live like this.
States rights? How about the Florida legislature laws that were passed to help this woman, only to have the courts intervene? Thats right. Since the liberal agenda can't get passed they pursue it thru the courts.
Since liberals won't tell us when life begins, why should they be able to tell us when life should end?

George F. Will, ever heard of him "Mr. Conservative" himself said, that the gov't interferring in a marriage (defined as two individuals becoming one) will contravene 200 yrs of jurisprudence in regards to marriage. Do you disagree w/ him Also, Gov. Jeb Bush had a law enacted called "Terry's law & the courts found it UNCONSTITUTIONAL, therefore it was repealed. There is "life" & there is "existence". A plant "exists". They are not the same. If someone wants merely to "exist", that is they're perogative but, in this case, there is no hope of recovery & if it were me I would spare myself & my family from a prolongation of the situation. Sadly, she did not have a living will. You do make a good argument inre: divorce but, although it may allow the family to prolong terry's existence for their own reasons, do you think it is in Terry's best interest?

 

[limerickman]

George F. Will, ever heard of him "Mr. Conservative" himself said that the gov't interferring in a marriage (defined as two individuals becoming one) will contravene 200 yrs of jurisprudence in regards to marriage. Do you disagree w/ him Also, Gov. Jeb Bush had a law enacted called "Terry's law & the courts found it UNCONSTITUTIONAL, therefore it was repealed. There is "life" & there is "existence". A plant "exists". They are not the same.

This entire debate seems to be breaking down along party lines.

I think the doctors view is pretty unequivocal.
If there was any hope of that lady's recovery, I would be persuaded to try to
keep her on life support.
But the doctors say that she has no chance of recovery.

 

[davidmc]

I agree that this is truely a sad case. What I don't understand or hear from anyone is, why would you want to torture this poor lady? Basically, that's what her family is doing by keeping her alive. Doctors have already said that she would NEVER have a chance at coming out of this. She should have died 15 years ago but has been kept alive by her family. I can understand a parents love for their child but at what point do you have to let go? I love my son, but it would hurt me more to know that he has bacically become brain dead and would never come out of this state. I wouldn't let him go through that. Placing politics aside form this case, what can be done for her that already hasn't been tried? All that Bush/government has done is placed his/their nose in something that they have no business in. I think it's SICK that they feel like they can manipulate this womans life for their good.

I agree w/ you. As Barney Frank (& THE FLORIDA COURTS) has stated, this is a judicial matter NOT a legislative matter. The Republican Congress is, by proxy, holding the Florida Courts in contempt which;incidentally, is a jailable offense.

 

[davidmc]

This entire debate seems to be breaking down along party lines.

I think the doctors view is pretty unequivocal.
If there was any hope of that lady's recovery, I would be persuaded to try to
keep her on life support.
But the doctors say that she has no chance of recovery.

Once the brain is starved of oxygen for a certain amt. of time, there is no going back.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

George F. Will, ever heard of him "Mr. Conservative" himself said, that the gov't interferring in a marriage (defined as two individuals becoming one) will contravene 200 yrs of jurisprudence in regards to marriage. Do you disagree w/ him Also, Gov. Jeb Bush had a law enacted called "Terry's law & the courts found it UNCONSTITUTIONAL, therefore it was repealed. There is "life" & there is "existence". A plant "exists". They are not the same. If someone wants merely to "exist", that is they're perogative but, in this case, there is no hope of recovery & if it were me I would spare myself & my family from a prolongation of the situation. Sadly, she did not have a living will. You do make a good argument inre: divorce but, although it may allow the family to prolong terry's existence for their own reasons, do you think it is in Terry's best interest?

Sorry but a state court decision does not equate to "states rights". A marriage is in sickness and in health..till death do us part. Does that include having a girlfriend and two kids?
Terry's best interest? Killing her? If it were you, but it isn't.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

I agree that this is truely a sad case. What I don't understand or hear from anyone is, why would you want to torture this poor lady? Basically, that's what her family is doing by keeping her alive. Doctors have already said that she would NEVER have a chance at coming out of this. She should have died 15 years ago but has been kept alive by her family. I can understand a parents love for their child but at what point do you have to let go? I love my son, but it would hurt me more to know that he has bacically become brain dead and would never come out of this state. I wouldn't let him go through that. Placing politics aside form this case, what can be done for her that already hasn't been tried? All that Bush/government has done is placed his/their nose in something that they have no business in. I think it's SICK that they feel like they can manipulate this womans life for their good.

Does it make you sick that her husband manipulated her for his good? After her seizure/collapse he promised to take care of her for life. He would take her to their home to care for her. Then magically, when the lawsuit was resolved and he got the money he suddenly said she didn't want to live like this. She was kept alive by her husband to gain the lawsuit settlement.

 

[snyper0311]

Does it make you sick that her husband manipulated her for his good? After her seizure/collapse he promised to take care of her for life. He would take her to their home to care for her. Then magically, when the lawsuit was resolved and he got the money he suddenly said she didn't want to live like this. She was kept alive by her husband to gain the lawsuit settlement.

To me it doesn't matter who kept her alive and for how long. What matters is that she is technically brain dead and should not be tortured for the greediness of others. So, to answer your question, YES, it does make me sick. Let her go, let her be at peace with her god! Others personal agenda's and feelings should be placed aside for the good of this woman.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

To me it doesn't matter who kept her alive and for how long. What matters is that she is technically brain dead and should not be tortured for the greediness of others. So, to answer your question, YES, it does make me sick. Let her go, let her be at peace with her god! Others personal agenda's and feelings should be placed aside for the good of this woman.

How is it torture if her parents agree to care for her?