SS Belt Drive?



S

supabonbon

Guest
A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
it's not a new concept.
Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
the drivetrain would last forever.
/s
 
On 11 Nov 2004 06:48:44 -0800, [email protected]
(supabonbon) wrote:

>A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
>That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
>'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
>it's not a new concept.
>Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
>cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
>the drivetrain would last forever.
>/s


Dear SBB,

One objection to a belt drive is that it won't work with the
derailleur system.

If this is overcome by the use of a motorcycle-style
internal gear system, then the problem is that a belt drive
is less efficient at transmitting a bicycle's feeble power
than a chain drive.

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:

> On 11 Nov 2004 06:48:44 -0800, [email protected]
> (supabonbon) wrote:
>
>
>>A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
>>That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
>>'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
>>it's not a new concept.
>>Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
>>cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
>>the drivetrain would last forever.
>>/s

>
>
> Dear SBB,
>
> One objection to a belt drive is that it won't work with the
> derailleur system.
>
> If this is overcome by the use of a motorcycle-style
> internal gear system, then the problem is that a belt drive
> is less efficient at transmitting a bicycle's feeble power
> than a chain drive.


Most belts are also endless for maximum strength, so you'd need raised
chainstays or a monostay design to avoid having to loop the belt round
the frame.

But belts can be pretty efficient - probably as good as a dirty chain
[1] and quiet.

[1] the inherent problem being that flexing rubbery things always
involves a loss of energy - it's called hysteresis. But how efficient
is your chain after 200 miles on wet roads?
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:21:17 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> On 11 Nov 2004 06:48:44 -0800, [email protected]
>> (supabonbon) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
>>>That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
>>>'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
>>>it's not a new concept.
>>>Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
>>>cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
>>>the drivetrain would last forever.
>>>/s

>>
>>
>> Dear SBB,
>>
>> One objection to a belt drive is that it won't work with the
>> derailleur system.
>>
>> If this is overcome by the use of a motorcycle-style
>> internal gear system, then the problem is that a belt drive
>> is less efficient at transmitting a bicycle's feeble power
>> than a chain drive.

>
>Most belts are also endless for maximum strength, so you'd need raised
>chainstays or a monostay design to avoid having to loop the belt round
>the frame.
>
>But belts can be pretty efficient - probably as good as a dirty chain
>[1] and quiet.
>
>[1] the inherent problem being that flexing rubbery things always
>involves a loss of energy - it's called hysteresis. But how efficient
>is your chain after 200 miles on wet roads?


Dear Zog,

Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
that matter:

[long quote begins]

The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
was not one of them.

"The first factor was sprocket size," Spicer says. "The
larger the sprocket, the higher the efficiency we recorded."
The sprocket is the circular plate whose teeth catch the
chain links and move them along. Between the front and rear
sprockets, the chain links line up straight. But when the
links reach the sprocket, they bend slightly as they curl
around the gear. "When the sprocket is larger, the links
bend at a smaller angle," Spicer explains. "There's less
frictional work, and as a result, less energy is lost."

The second factor that affected efficiency was tension in
the chain. The higher the chain tension, Spicer says, the
higher the efficiency score. "This is actually not in the
direction you'd expect, based simply on friction," he says.
"It's not clear to us at this time why this occurs."

The Johns Hopkins engineers made another interesting
discovery when they looked at the role of lubricants. The
team purchased three popular products used to "grease" a
bicycle chain: a wax-based lubricant, a synthetic oil and a
"dry" lithium-based spray lubricant. In lab tests comparing
the three products, there was no significant difference in
energy efficiency. "Then we removed any lubricant from the
chain and ran the test again," Spicer recalls. "We were
surprised to find that the efficiency was essentially the
same as when it was lubricated."

The researcher speculates that a bicycle lubricant does not
play a critical role under clean lab conditions, using a
brand new chain. But it may contribute to energy efficiency
in the rugged outdoors. "The role of the lubricant, as far
as we can tell, is to take up space so that dirt doesn't get
into the chain," Spicer says. "The lubricant is essentially
a clean substance that fills up the spaces so that dirt
doesn't get into the critical portions of the chain where
the parts are very tightly meshed. But in lab conditions,
where there is no dirt, it makes no difference. On the road,
we believe the lubricant mostly assumes the role of keeping
out dirt, which could very well affect friction in the drive
train."

http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home99/aug99/bike.html

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
> that matter:
>
> [long quote begins]
>
> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
> was not one of them.


I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:12:16 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
>> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
>> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
>> that matter:
>>
>> [long quote begins]
>>
>> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
>> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
>> was not one of them.

>
>I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
>increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?


Dear Zog,

I doubt that many of us are riding road bicycles with chains
rusty or grimy enough to make a noticeable difference in
transmission efficiency.

For those hypothetical few whose chains may have become
hard-to-pedal rusty anchors, the obvious solution is a new
$12 chain (less at WalMart).

Sprocket-size and tension are the main things that affect
chain-drive efficiency. Lubrication and cleanliness affect
wear rates. Even when worn, chains are efficient at power
transmission (until the point where they simply skip off the
gears).

Belt drives start out as a less efficient transmission and
stay that way until they fail, usually catastrophically.

Carl Fogel
 

>If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think the

drivetrain would last forever.

Most of my MC riding buds have belt-drive's on thier MC's that last 10's of
thousands of miles....

I'd certainly give it a try on the 29"er Disc SS, since it is about as much
of an oddball bike as you cna uild these days.


--
ITSN Gunterman USN
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all who threaten it.
 
On 11 Nov 2004 06:48:44 -0800, [email protected] (supabonbon)
wrote:

>A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
>That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
>'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
>it's not a new concept.
>Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
>cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
>the drivetrain would last forever.


Toothed belt drives are relatively common in Japan, where there is
significant demand for bikes that can be stored cleanly in a tiny
apartment. They have made few inroads elsewhere. The principle
reasons for this are their incompatibility with derailleur systems,
their lack of length adjustment capability to accomodate gearing
changes, and their cost. The last factor would be overcome quickly if
the other two were not important, but as it stands, the combination
makes them a moot issue for most markets.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:12:16 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
>> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
>> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
>> that matter:
>>
>> [long quote begins]
>>
>> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
>> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
>> was not one of them.

>
>I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
>increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?


Only for a short time, until the conflicting surfaces wear each other
to a state of clearance, and then it's not a factor anymore. I've
observed this a number of times on junkyard bikes that have passed
through my hands; if the chain seems stiff, I lube it, ride around the
block a few times, and recheck for stiffness and wear. Most of the
time, the stiffness is gone. Sometimes the chain is still within
useful limits of wear as well. (Needless to say, many of the bikes
which I see are something other than fresh from the factory, and have
not been given much in the way of maintenance. I become better
acquainted with the limits of neglect every day.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:30:37 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>I doubt that many of us are riding road bicycles with chains
>rusty or grimy enough to make a noticeable difference in
>transmission efficiency.


Half-life to lapping the surfaces is about a half mile, in my
experience, if the chain is salvagable at all.

>For those hypothetical few whose chains may have become
>hard-to-pedal rusty anchors, the obvious solution is a new
>$12 chain (less at WalMart).


Urk. Those Bell chains make me uneasy. The sole failure of a fresh
chain that I've seen was one of them. Apparently, one rivet wasn't
quite fully pressed in place. I'd use a Bell chain if the other
choice was walking, but as long as a PC48 can be had for ~$12 within a
reasonable distance, that's what I'll stick with.

>Belt drives start out as a less efficient transmission and
>stay that way until they fail, usually catastrophically.


Heh. I've noticed that they're now fairly common; they must have
improved quite a bit since I last fiddled with them. Back in the
'70s, we tried belt drive replacements for both the primary chain and
the drive chain of Hardly-Ablesons, and the results were somewhat less
than satisfactory. After a while, when it became clear that Uniroyal
(the cog belt supplier) just didn't have the tech ready for this
application, we told people that if they wanted one installed, they
should make sure that their pickup truck was running properly and that
somebody would be home to grab it and fetch them when the belt's teeth
stripped off. Average runtimes were in the area of 1500 miles. In
other words, about halfway to Sturgis. One of the group *almost* made
it all the way home from that run on his fourth belt, but it spat out
its dentures in Clewiston and I had to come out with the shop truck to
bring him the rest of the way into Miami.

Y'know, I don't miss those days.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
"supabonbon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
> That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
> 'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
> it's not a new concept.
> Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
> cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
> the drivetrain would last forever.
> /s

I saw a belt driven bike badged Mercedes Benz the car company, it was belt
driven 7sp nexus hub. The rear sprocket initially gave problems jumping
Mercedes did a Sun Planet gear mod at the sprocket and since then the bike
as done many thousands of trouble free miles with no adjustment.
I have a pic of the mod
Question can you attach a picture to a newsgroup reply as I have never seen
an a reply with one.

PK
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:18:28 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:30:37 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I doubt that many of us are riding road bicycles with chains
>>rusty or grimy enough to make a noticeable difference in
>>transmission efficiency.

>
>Half-life to lapping the surfaces is about a half mile, in my
>experience, if the chain is salvagable at all.
>
>>For those hypothetical few whose chains may have become
>>hard-to-pedal rusty anchors, the obvious solution is a new
>>$12 chain (less at WalMart).

>
>Urk. Those Bell chains make me uneasy. The sole failure of a fresh
>chain that I've seen was one of them. Apparently, one rivet wasn't
>quite fully pressed in place. I'd use a Bell chain if the other
>choice was walking, but as long as a PC48 can be had for ~$12 within a
>reasonable distance, that's what I'll stick with.
>
>>Belt drives start out as a less efficient transmission and
>>stay that way until they fail, usually catastrophically.

>
>Heh. I've noticed that they're now fairly common; they must have
>improved quite a bit since I last fiddled with them. Back in the
>'70s, we tried belt drive replacements for both the primary chain and
>the drive chain of Hardly-Ablesons, and the results were somewhat less
>than satisfactory. After a while, when it became clear that Uniroyal
>(the cog belt supplier) just didn't have the tech ready for this
>application, we told people that if they wanted one installed, they
>should make sure that their pickup truck was running properly and that
>somebody would be home to grab it and fetch them when the belt's teeth
>stripped off. Average runtimes were in the area of 1500 miles. In
>other words, about halfway to Sturgis. One of the group *almost* made
>it all the way home from that run on his fourth belt, but it spat out
>its dentures in Clewiston and I had to come out with the shop truck to
>bring him the rest of the way into Miami.
>
>Y'know, I don't miss those days.


Dear Werehartrack,

Belt drives are common now on street machines, but I cringe
at the first price for just a belt that Google turned up:
$239, plus shipping.

Carl Fogel
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:12:16 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
>> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
>> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
>> that matter:
>>
>> [long quote begins]
>>
>> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
>> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
>> was not one of them.

>
>I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
>increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?


Dear Zog,

Having nailed my colors to the rusty, dirty mast, I decided
to google the archives and find out if I was right. So far,
the results seem promising. A post from Meb included these
test figures:

Used chain (8000km), no rust, lubed 100W 94-96%, 200W 97-98%
Neglected used chain (7000km), rusty, dry 100W 88%, 200W 93%

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g...=en&lr=&[email protected]

This suggests that when I put out 200 watts of irresistible
fury against the pedals, something like 195 watts reaches
the rear cog through a clean oiled chain, while only 186
watts manages to fight its way through dry rust. (And I
suspect that a few drops of oil on the dry, rusty chain
would produce some improvement.)

So far, my search of the archives for the efficiency of belt
drives (v-belts or toothed belts) shows only people asking
the question, not any clear answers. Some claim (without any
sources) that belts can actually be more efficient than
chains, while others offer pessimistic and equally
unsupported estimates of 40-50% power loss.

One point is that even if as efficient as a chain, a
multi-gear belt drive cannot use the efficient derailleur
system--it must suffer the non-belt losses of an internal
gear hub.

Another point is that in Japan belt-drive commuter bicycles
are used for the sake of cleanliness.

Carl Fogel
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:41:18 -0700, [email protected]
wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:12:16 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
>>> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
>>> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
>>> that matter:
>>>
>>> [long quote begins]
>>>
>>> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
>>> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
>>> was not one of them.

>>
>>I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
>>increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?

>
>Dear Zog,
>
>Having nailed my colors to the rusty, dirty mast, I decided
>to google the archives and find out if I was right. So far,
>the results seem promising. A post from Meb included these
>test figures:
>
>Used chain (8000km), no rust, lubed 100W 94-96%, 200W 97-98%
>Neglected used chain (7000km), rusty, dry 100W 88%, 200W 93%
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g...=en&lr=&[email protected]
>
>This suggests that when I put out 200 watts of irresistible
>fury against the pedals, something like 195 watts reaches
>the rear cog through a clean oiled chain, while only 186
>watts manages to fight its way through dry rust. (And I
>suspect that a few drops of oil on the dry, rusty chain
>would produce some improvement.)
>
>So far, my search of the archives for the efficiency of belt
>drives (v-belts or toothed belts) shows only people asking
>the question, not any clear answers. Some claim (without any
>sources) that belts can actually be more efficient than
>chains, while others offer pessimistic and equally
>unsupported estimates of 40-50% power loss.
>
>One point is that even if as efficient as a chain, a
>multi-gear belt drive cannot use the efficient derailleur
>system--it must suffer the non-belt losses of an internal
>gear hub.
>
>Another point is that in Japan belt-drive commuter bicycles
>are used for the sake of cleanliness.
>
>Carl Fogel


Tension turns out to be crucial for V-belt drives, something
likely to vary unacceptably as the bicycle frame flexes:

"V-belt drive efficiency ranges from 90 to 96%, assuming
proper selection and maintenance. Belt tension is a critical
factor. If the belt is too loose, excess slippage, high
power loss, and premature belt failure will likely result .
If the belt is too tight, it places undo stress on the motor
bearings, and shaft. The belt may also stretch and smooth
with wear. That's why periodic maintenance is required to
adjust the belt to its proper tension."

http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mdmbvbe.asp

The toothed or synchronous belt drive is noticeably better:

"The most efficient belt design is the synchronous belt. The
synchronous belt is a modification of the older flat belt,
incorporating cogs, or teeth, on both belt and pulley. They
normally attain 98 to 99 percent efficiency. Synchronous
belts eliminate slippage, since their teeth engage the teeth
of the sprocket pulleys. They can withstand much more harsh
conditions than other belts, typically lasting four times as
long. Due to the nature of their design and operation, they
stretch very little, requiring very little adjustment."

"Their higher efficiency makes them excellent for
retrofitting older applications. However, they do not work
well on shock type loads where abrupt torque changes may
shear the sprocket or belt teeth."

http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mdmbsyn.asp

Whether such chain-like efficiency can be achieved by
tension-sensitive belts on a bicycle frame prone to flexing
is another matter.

A bicycle's transmission shock loads (standing on the pedal
to start off, stomping on the pedals to sprint) might not be
enough to shear off well-made belt teeth, but it's something
else to worry about.

Carl Fogel
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:12:16 +0000, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Surprisingly, the efficiency of chains suffers hardly at all
>> due to grime or lack of lubrication--those evils affect
>> longevity. For efficiency, it's sprocket size and tension
>> that matter:
>>
>> [long quote begins]
>>
>> The researchers found two factors that seemed to affect the
>> bicycle chain drive's efficiency. Surprisingly, lubrication
>> was not one of them.

>
>I saw that link too, but what about dirt and rust? Surely this
>increases the friction between the outer and inner plates a *lot*?


Dear Zog,

Having nailed my colors to the rusty, dirty mast, I decided
to google the archives and find out if I was right. So far,
the results seem promising. A post from Meb included these
test figures:

Used chain (8000km), no rust, lubed 100W 94-96%, 200W 97-98%
Neglected used chain (7000km), rusty, dry 100W 88%, 200W 93%

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g...=en&lr=&[email protected]

This suggests that when I put out 200 watts of irresistible
fury against the pedals, something like 195 watts reaches
the rear cog through a clean oiled chain, while only 186
watts manages to fight its way through dry rust. (And I
suspect that a few drops of oil on the dry, rusty chain
would produce some improvement.)

So far, my search of the archives for the efficiency of belt
drives (v-belts or toothed belts) shows only people asking
the question, not any clear answers. Some claim (without any
sources) that belts can actually be more efficient than
chains, while others offer pessimistic and equally
unsupported estimates of 40-50% power loss.

One point is that even if as efficient as a chain, a
multi-gear belt drive cannot use the efficient derailleur
system--it must suffer the non-belt losses of an internal
gear hub.

Another point is that in Japan belt-drive commuter bicycles
are used for the sake of cleanliness.

Carl Fogel

The V- belts aren’t going to be in the same league as the chains or tooth belts on efficiency. The toothed belts can be competitive with chains, in some cases more efficient.

There is an increasing belt drive market share catching on in the folder/commuter market wherein the cleanliness of a belt and the reliability and ease of maintenance of the hub trump the grease and maintenance of the chain derailleur’s even with the derailleur’s efficiency edge.
 
<SNIP>
Tension turns out to be crucial for V-belt drives, something
likely to vary unacceptably as the bicycle frame flexes:

"V-belt drive efficiency ranges from 90 to 96%, assuming
proper selection and maintenance. Belt tension is a critical
factor. If the belt is too loose, excess slippage, high
power loss, and premature belt failure will likely result .
If the belt is too tight, it places undo stress on the motor
bearings, and shaft. The belt may also stretch and smooth
with wear. That's why periodic maintenance is required to
adjust the belt to its proper tension."

http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mdmbvbe.asp

The toothed or synchronous belt drive is noticeably better:

"The most efficient belt design is the synchronous belt. The
synchronous belt is a modification of the older flat belt,
incorporating cogs, or teeth, on both belt and pulley. They
normally attain 98 to 99 percent efficiency. Synchronous
belts eliminate slippage, since their teeth engage the teeth
of the sprocket pulleys. They can withstand much more harsh
conditions than other belts, typically lasting four times as
long. Due to the nature of their design and operation, they
stretch very little, requiring very little adjustment."

"Their higher efficiency makes them excellent for
retrofitting older applications. However, they do not work
well on shock type loads where abrupt torque changes may
shear the sprocket or belt teeth."

http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mdmbsyn.asp

Whether such chain-like efficiency can be achieved by
tension-sensitive belts on a bicycle frame prone to flexing
is another matter.

A bicycle's transmission shock loads (standing on the pedal
to start off, stomping on the pedals to sprint) might not be
enough to shear off well-made belt teeth, but it's something
else to worry about.

Carl Fogel[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't a toothed belt be a natural for the "Synch Chain" on a tandem.
Tension can be easily adjusted with the bottom bracket arrangement, but there is some tension change as the "boom tube" flexes.
I sure would make it nice to lay the tandem down without needing to worry about a chain on each side.
I also could come back after a tandem ride without a "chain tatoo".
I asked Santana about once (we own two of their tandems) and they said efficiency and costs make it prohibitive. I wasn't aware of the Japanese commuter bicycles using them.
It may be time for another look.

An earlier posting made reference to riding 200 miles in the rain. I did that once with my touring bicycle that has fenders and "mud flaps" to keep the water from the front tire from spraying back on the drive train and me. Water is actually a good chain lube.... as long as it isn't carrying grit from the road. My chain never squeeked and it didn't wear a measurable amount. However, a rider in the group who had no fenders found his chain was worn considerably. I didn't measure his chain before, so I am not sure of his starting point. His chain didn't jump cogs during the hilly parts of the beginning of the ride, but it jumped considerably near the end of the ride.
The ride was in UP Michigan from West to East.
 
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:58:04 +1100, daveornee
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>An earlier posting made reference to riding 200 miles in the rain. I did
>that once with my touring bicycle that has fenders and "mud flaps" to keep
>the water from the front tire from spraying back on the drive train and
>me. Water is actually a good chain lube.... as long as it isn't carrying
>grit from the road. My chain never squeeked and it didn't wear a
>measurable amount. However, a rider in the group who had no fenders
>found his chain was worn considerably. I didn't measure his chain
>before, so I am not sure of his starting point. His chain didn't jump
>cogs during the hilly parts of the beginning of the ride, but it jumped
>considerably near the end of the ride.
>The ride was in UP Michigan from West to East.


Dear Dave,

As you point out, water is actually a fair lubricant. I
think that the squeaking of a rain-washed chain comes after
it dries out, but I don't really know. My daily ride is so
short that my bedraggled chain merely sports a vile grayish
film that I've been told is oil emulsified in water. I clean
it off before it can do anything interesting.

As for chain that began to skip by the end of a single wet
ride, I suspect that the water washed out the tiny layers of
road filth that accumulate inside a hundred worn chain
rollers. Once the metal is clean and free to rattle,
uncushioned by foul sludge, the already worn chain lengthens
abruptly.

I've had similar startling chain-skip experiences right
after I cleaned shamefully worn, dirty chains.

Carl Fogel
 
On 11 Nov 2004 06:48:44 -0800, supabonbon <[email protected]> wrote:

> A couple riders have brought up a discussion on chainwear recently.
> That made me recall a Jericho SS showing off a belt drive they called
> 'Red October'. I've also seen them on Strida folding bikes. I'm sure
> it's not a new concept.
> Anybody out there actually riding a belt? I'm curious about pros and
> cons. If they're trusted on motorcycles, why not bikes? You'd think
> the drivetrain would last forever.
> /s



Jericho gave up on it because of the near impossibility of getting enough
tension on the belt to prevent it from skipping. However, since they
shelved the idea a revolution in SS design has happened, and now
horizontal dropouts are passe, so maybe with an eccentric BB setup the
belt drive could be revived...

miles