Where to find draft-legal events?



L

Leon Fortunato

Guest
Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal triathlons /
duathlons in the U.S.?
 
On 4/9/04 10:52 AM, in article wrote:

> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal triathlons
> / duathlons in the U.S.?

Might want to try looking at the Escape from Bellvue
triathlon.

(I can't imagine why you would want to draft behind a non-
pro).
 
Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal triathlons
> / duathlons in the U.S.?

I'll avoid my usual rant against that other sport that
allows drafting and isn't called triathlon for now and ask a
question out of curiosity.

Is there any history of duathlons that allow drafting? Have
they always been offered in both formats, or is that
something new that's developed from the bastardization of
triathlon?

Tom
 
One question/thought-

I saw an article awhile back that there was a team that was
training to enter draft legal races, and work as a team to
garner wins. I thought that it might be hard to find the
type of athlete that can swim fast enough to get out of the
water in the lead, and then blow themselves up on the bike
to set up a run specialist...supposedly, you'd need a
swimmer/runner and a swimmer/cyclist.

My hope was that this would catch on, render draft legal
racing largely meaningless, and get the sport back to pure
roots...I haven't heard of anyone employing this tactic
effectively though.

Has anyone out there heard of a team successfully working
together to win? I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Stan

"Leon Fortunato" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal triathlons
> / duathlons in the U.S.?
 
This would be the best bet for a win in the Olympics,
otherwise it will be cat and mouse with the lead packs
certainly in the mens race pushing on on the bike but not
pushing hard, just fast enough to keep ahead of the general
pack but not tiring themselves. They have breakaways
covered but are just leaving it to see who has the most
left for the run.

Given the Olympics will be a draftign event no matter what I
think of drafting races, I'd like to see the GB three have a
go, with two fast boys doing the swim and the bike to pull
Andrew Johns along and leave him to win on the run. Its not
entirely clear that Johns will stay with standard distance
racing from next year and it wouldn't be a surprise to see
him follow Lessing and Spencer Smith into Ironman races.

Its not at all clear that the womens race could benefit from
team tactics. ++Mark.
 
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:09:43 GMT, Tom Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal triathlons
>> / duathlons in the U.S.?
>
>I'll avoid my usual rant against that other sport that
>allows drafting and isn't called triathlon for now and ask
>a question out of curiosity.
>
>Is there any history of duathlons that allow drafting?

I'm not really sure. It's just that I find USAT rules to be
more of a nuisance than anything. I've seen many of my
friends get penalties just engaging in natural racing
behavior - just trying to get ahead of the other guy, but
perhaps taking longer than allowed time to complete the
pass. And of course, if you get a large enough field, you
end up with a situation where a large majority are violators
at some point just because of the congestion.

>Have they always been offered in both formats, or is that
>something new that's developed from the bastardization of
>triathlon?
>
>Tom
 
Leon,, you are on the wrong news group. This is a
Triathlete's news group we don't condone drafting.
Drafting SUCKS.

Ken

"Leon Fortunato" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:09:43 GMT, Tom Henderson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
> >news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal
> >> triathlons / duathlons in the U.S.?
> >
> >I'll avoid my usual rant against that other sport that
> >allows drafting
and
> >isn't called triathlon for now and ask a question out of
> >curiosity.
> >
> >Is there any history of duathlons that allow drafting?
>
> I'm not really sure. It's just that I find USAT rules to
> be more of a nuisance than anything. I've seen many of my
> friends get penalties just engaging in natural racing
> behavior - just trying to get ahead of the other guy, but
> perhaps taking longer than allowed time to complete the
> pass. And of course, if you get a large enough field, you
> end up with a situation where a large majority are
> violators at some point just because of the congestion.
>
> >Have they always been offered in both formats, or is that
> >something new that's developed from the bastardization of
> >triathlon?
> >
> >Tom
 
Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I'm not really sure. It's just that I find USAT rules to
> be more of a nuisance than anything. I've seen many of
> my friends get penalties just engaging in natural racing
> behavior - just trying to get ahead of the other guy,
> but perhaps taking longer than allowed time to complete
> the pass.

Hmmm, it takes them more than 15 seconds to gain 10 meters?
Remember, all you have to do is break the plane of the
passed party's front wheel with yours, then the
responsibilty to create the 10 meter gap from the passing
party's front wheel to the passed party's front wheel
becomes the responsibilty of the passed party. That's a
total of 30 seconds to complete the pass, with only half the
time being the passer's responsibility. Seems reasonable to
me. How else would you do it and still keep the playing
feild safe and level. Don't answer "allow drafting" becuase
that violates the requirement of keeping the feild level.

> And of course, if you get a large enough field, you end up
> with a situation where a large majority are violators at
> some point just because of the congestion.
>

That's the fault of race direction, either through greed or
honest mistakes. Fact is, the course design, number and
spacing of waves, and entry limit are the only ways to
control this.
 
On 4/9/04 8:12 PM, in article, "StanSD" <[email protected]> wrote:

> One question/thought-
>
> I saw an article awhile back that there was a team that
> was training to enter draft legal races, and work as a
> team to garner wins. I thought that it might be hard to
> find the type of athlete that can swim fast enough to get
> out of the water in the lead, and then blow themselves up
> on the bike to set up a run specialist...

OK, about this "run specialist". They need to be a good
enough swimmer to come out of the water in the lead pack
otherwise their "teammate" will be too far gone to help.
They also have to be a good enough cyclist to hang with the
pack for the duration of the bike until their "run
specialist" talents can be put to use?

Sounds to me like someone who's capable of winning a
triathlon...
 
I've known a couple guys personally who could exit the water
of an olympic race in the 20:30 range, and run a 33:30 10K,
but who weren't competitive because of the bike leg. Anyone
who's watched or raced a cycling event also knows that
there's a huge difference between being able to draft, and
having teammates directly working on your behalf. If you had
a guy who was a decent runner, you could launch attacks and
force others to chace, make absolutely sure that you're
runner never had to fight the wind, etc.)

Obviously, you'd have to be a great athlete to win any major
draft legal triathlon, but having a team to support a very
strong runner could be a huge strategic advantage.

Stan

"John Hardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BC9ED77F.6566%[email protected]...
> On 4/9/04 8:12 PM, in article, "StanSD"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One question/thought-
> >
> > I saw an article awhile back that there was a team that
> > was training to enter draft legal races, and work as a
> > team to garner wins. I thought
that
> > it might be hard to find the type of athlete that can
> > swim fast enough
to
> > get out of the water in the lead, and then blow
> > themselves up on the
bike to
> > set up a run specialist...
>
> OK, about this "run specialist". They need to be a good
> enough swimmer to come out of the water in the lead pack
> otherwise their "teammate" will be too far gone to help.
> They also have to be a good enough cyclist to hang with
> the pack for the duration of the bike until their "run
> specialist" talents can be put to use?
>
> Sounds to me like someone who's capable of winning a
> triathlon...
 
To prove a point, todays ITU World Cup in Ishigaki had
exactly this. Richard Stannard came out of the swim in
first, as per almost every race. He finished the bike in a
small lead pack of three with GB team mate Richard Allen and
then the pair of them blew up on the run. Your point was ?

Andrew Johns was beaten by teammate Amey, if Stannard and
Allen had held back slightly early on in the bike and towed
Johns along they might have finished and Johns might have
won... we'll never know.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/triman/15684.html

"John Hardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BC9ED77F.6566%[email protected]...
> "run specialist". They need to be a good enough swimmer to
> come out of the water in the lead pack otherwise their
> "teammate" will be too far gone to help. They also have to
> be a good enough cyclist to hang with the pack for the
> duration of the bike until their "run specialist" talents
> can be put to use?
>
> Sounds to me like someone who's capable of winning a
> triathlon...
 
Mark Cathcart wrote in message ...
>To prove a point, todays ITU World Cup in Ishigaki had
>exactly this. Richard Stannard came out of the swim in
>first, as per almost every race. He finished the bike in
>a small lead pack of three with GB team mate Richard
>Allen and then the pair of them blew up on the run. Your
>point was ?

Sort of another example--At last year's Pacific Grove
Triathlon ITU Pro race a five man team (team KINeSIS) tried
to do roughly this with two run specialists and a couple of
"domestiques" to do the bike work. Didn't work though
because Simon Lessing did one of the most outstanding one-
man breakaways I've ever seen and destroyed everybody on
the bike--The bike effort so tired Simon that he was "only"
able to do 31 and small change on the 10k - about 30 sec.
slower than his prior year's run. Team KINeSIS managed a
3rd and a 4th.

Bill
 
I, for one, have seen the downside of draft-illegal events.
As races get larger, drafting rules become increasingly
difficult to obey and enforce. The simple fact is that as
you increase the density of traffic, the average distance
between vehicles decreases proportionally. Hopefully, the
rank and file will see the light soon.

The only way to absolutely ensure that everyone is truly
racing their own race is to set up the event to start with
the bike ride and begin just like a road bike time trial -
with cyclists starting several minutes apart, preferably
fastest first. Anyone care enough about not drafting to
sacrifice the order of events or have a sprint event that
takes all day for everyone to finish?

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 04:17:41 GMT, "IMKen"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon,, you are on the wrong news group. This is a
>Triathlete's news group we don't condone drafting.
>Drafting SUCKS.
>
>Ken
>
>
>"Leon Fortunato" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:09:43 GMT, Tom Henderson
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
>> >news:[email protected]:
>> >
>> >> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal
>> >> triathlons / duathlons in the U.S.?
>> >
>> >I'll avoid my usual rant against that other sport that
>> >allows drafting
>and
>> >isn't called triathlon for now and ask a question out of
>> >curiosity.
>> >
>> >Is there any history of duathlons that allow drafting?
>>
>> I'm not really sure. It's just that I find USAT rules to
>> be more of a nuisance than anything. I've seen many of my
>> friends get penalties just engaging in natural racing
>> behavior - just trying to get ahead of the other guy, but
>> perhaps taking longer than allowed time to complete the
>> pass. And of course, if you get a large enough field, you
>> end up with a situation where a large majority are
>> violators at some point just because of the congestion.
>>
>> >Have they always been offered in both formats, or is
>> >that something new that's developed from the
>> >bastardization of triathlon?
>> >
>> >Tom
>
 
Leon, I believe it has something to do with one's character.
Yes, it is possible to draft and get away with it if one so
chooses. I might understand this at the Pro level where
money is a reward. I can not understand anyone drafting in
the amateur ranks but of course there are a few with low
character / self esteem that will try. They are from my long
experience, few. I have competed in over a hundred
triathlons of varying distance and never found the need to
draft. It is something easy to avoid unless cheating is
within the scope of ones character. One could just as easy
lie about his age, use drugs or short-cut the course. In
most events who really knows if you started the swim or
perhaps just mounted your bike someplace along the course.
In large events with the Champion Chip this is probably not
possible but there are many where it could happen. I think
it would be extremely rare. So why would one cheat and
draft. Just go out and do your legal race and feel sorry for
the low life that needs to draft. My bet is that he will not
do well in any case. The few that choose to draft is not
really much of an issue as they are not likely to affect
those that are doing their honorable legal race. People in
the age groups that go to win/compete train to be their
best. The poor soul that needs to draft is not a threat.

Density or traffic have little to do with drafting among
honorable people.

Triathlon works well in it's current mode.

Ken @ Kauai

"Leon Fortunato" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I, for one, have seen the downside of draft-illegal
> events. As races get larger, drafting rules become
> increasingly difficult to obey and enforce. The simple
> fact is that as you increase the density of traffic, the
> average distance between vehicles decreases
> proportionally. Hopefully, the rank and file will see the
> light soon.
>
> The only way to absolutely ensure that everyone is truly
> racing their own race is to set up the event to start with
> the bike ride and begin just like a road bike time trial -
> with cyclists starting several minutes apart, preferably
> fastest first. Anyone care enough about not drafting to
> sacrifice the order of events or have a sprint event that
> takes all day for everyone to finish?
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 04:17:41 GMT, "IMKen"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Leon,, you are on the wrong news group. This is a
> >Triathlete's news
group
> >we don't condone drafting. Drafting SUCKS.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >
> >"Leon Fortunato" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:09:43 GMT, Tom Henderson
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
> >> >news:[email protected]:
> >> >
> >> >> Anyone know where to find non-pro, draft-legal
> >> >> triathlons /
duathlons
> >> >> in the U.S.?
> >> >
> >> >I'll avoid my usual rant against that other sport that
> >> >allows drafting
> >and
> >> >isn't called triathlon for now and ask a question out
> >> >of curiosity.
> >> >
> >> >Is there any history of duathlons that allow drafting?
> >>
> >> I'm not really sure. It's just that I find USAT rules
> >> to be more of a nuisance than anything. I've seen many
> >> of my friends get penalties just engaging in natural
> >> racing behavior - just trying to get ahead of the other
> >> guy, but perhaps taking longer than allowed time to
> >> complete the pass. And of course, if you get a large
> >> enough field, you end up with a situation where a large
> >> majority are violators at some point just because of
> >> the congestion.
> >>
> >> >Have they always been offered in both formats, or is
> >> >that something new that's
developed
> >> >from the bastardization of triathlon?
> >> >
> >> >Tom
> >>
 
Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I, for one, have seen the downside of draft-illegal
> events. As races get larger, drafting rules become
> increasingly difficult to obey and enforce. The simple
> fact is that as you increase the density of traffic, the
> average distance between vehicles decreases
> proportionally. Hopefully, the rank and file will see the
> light soon.
>

Everything listed above is resolved by a combination
of course design, wave spacing, and limiting the
number of entrants.

> The only way to absolutely ensure that everyone is truly
> racing their own race is to set up the event to start with
> the bike ride and begin just like a road bike time trial -
> with cyclists starting several minutes apart, preferably
> fastest first. Anyone care enough about not drafting to
> sacrifice the order of events or have a sprint event that
> takes all day for everyone to finish?
>

No. Anyone willing to give up on the sport in it's original
compettive form with a more level playing feild? It's
certainly easier than doing the honest work of managing an
event so that the course isn't over crowded. It's also
easier than having the personal integrity to obey the rules.
Maybe eventually we'll end up with the ultimate compromise:
Just order the finisher's shirt and claim you did the race.

Tom
 
Tom Henderson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Leon Fortunato <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > I, for one, have seen the downside of draft-illegal
> > events. As races get larger, drafting rules become
> > increasingly difficult to obey and enforce. The simple
> > fact is that as you increase the density of traffic, the
> > average distance between vehicles decreases
> > proportionally. Hopefully, the rank and file will see
> > the light soon.
> >
>
> Everything listed above is resolved by a combination of
> course design, wave spacing, and limiting the number of
> entrants.

<<Snipped>>

I agree with your sentiments, but you oversimplify the
remedy. I observe far more "ignorance-violations" than "cheating-
violations". Both diminish the quality of the event equally.

Other than classic drafting, position violations are the
equivalent to driving's "crossing-the-gore". Most people who
do it don't know, understand, or care that it is illegal.

rsquared
 
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