Why Do You Ride Mountain A Bike On Streets?

Van Bagnol · May 30, 2004

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (James Lynx) wrote:

> I'm curious about something. I have been reading this forum on
> Mountain Bikes and notice that a lot of you either have two mountain
> bikes, one for mountain biking, and one with street/road tires for
> riding on the street, or you have one bike and you have two sets of
> tires/rims, one with knobs for the mountain biking and one with street
> tires.
[snip]
> So why do you ride a mountain bike on the road instead of riding a
> road bike or even a cruiser?

1. One can ride a mountain bike on the road. One cannot ride a road
bike off-road.

2. A low-end entry-level road bike costs roughly the same ($1000)
as an upper-mid-level mountain bike. You can buy two entry-level
MTBs for the price of a single entry-level road bike.

3. A mountain bike has a softer ride, a more comfortable riding
position, and better visibility than a road bike.

4. You can ride off and on curbs, down stairs, and over potholes with
less chance of damage to a mountain bike than to a road bike.

5. A road bike is lighter, allowing faster climbing given the same
gearing. However, a mountain bike has lower gearing and a wider
gearing range than a road bike, allowing a rider to climb hills
easier, albeit slower, while still being able to reach acceptable
speeds on the flats.

Van
--
Van Bagnol / v b a g n o l at earthlink dot net / c r l at bagnol dot com
....enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
....feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
....thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct It"

The Nelson Paradigm · May 31, 2004

Mike Vandeman wrote:
| On Sun, 30 May 2004 14:14:48 -0400, "The Nelson Paradigm"
| <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| .BB wrote:
| .| On 29 May 2004 22:45:48 -0700, James Lynx wrote:
| .|
| .|| So why do you ride a mountain bike on the road instead of riding a
| .|| road bike or even a cruiser?
| .|
| .| A lot of us bought a low- or mid-range bike first, then upgraded a
| .| couple of year later. That other bike makes a good road-beater.
| .|
| .| Also, a lot of us don't hold a lot of confidence in the durability
| of .| those skinny-wheeled road bikes, particularly in suburban/urban
| .| situations where there may be curbs to cross, as well as potholes,
| .| grates, etc.
| .
| .The mountain bike's main popularity was its practicality. It took
| over from .the Road Bike (then known as the "10-speed") because it
| was more comfortable .and easier to use.
|
| You've got to be kidding. MTBs have greater rolling resistance and
| not a comfortable riding position.

Uh, no. You only get higher rolling resistance if you have aggressive
knobbies. Many of those early mountain bikes had center ridge tires and
therefore low RR. Comparing the riding position of an early MTB to a
70s/80s 10-speed (road bike) there is no contest. Now, maybe you're more
comfortable on them, but I'm sure not.

Then maybe you're riding a 3-speed "english" that's not much different from
a cruiser. Oh yeah, I forgot, the first MTBs were made out of cruisers.

---
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(_)/ (_) all the rest, just details.
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The Nelson Paradigm · May 31, 2004

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:38:42 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:05:52 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..> .
..> .hehehe..you just love showing how wrong you can be, don't you.
..> .Q. What on a mountain bike inherently might cause "high rolling
..resistance"?
..> .A. Nothing. Its a bicycle. Same basic components as any other bike.
..>
..> The tires, dumdum.
..
..Addressed below.
..
..> It is also overbuilt and inefficient for street riding.
..
..How so, Mikey? Please feel free to provide detail.

They are built to withstand the beating that you get on trails, but not on the
street (unless you like riding off curbs etc., which is stupid).

..Perhaps you're thinking of the specialized engineless motorcycles known as
..'DH' bikes. The vast majority of mountain bikes are not like that. As you
..well know.

BS. They are designed to take a beating, which road bikes are not subject to.

..> .The only difference, it seems, might be choice of tires. There is nothing
..> .restricting a MTB to knobbies. 26" slicks are widely available and cheap.
..If
..> .you ask when you buy it, the shop will often swap the knobbies for
..slicks,
..> .for free.
..> .
..> .And in fact, wider tires (of the same construction and pressure), often
..> .offer *less* rolling resistance than skinnier tires.
..> .http://www.discoveryride.com/human/rolling.html
..>
..> BS.
..
..Come now, Mikey. You dispute scientific studies comparing different street
..tires? Done with no thought of mountain biking?
..Do you have any different data? I'd like to see it.
..("It's obvious" is not data)

It's obvious to anyone with an ounce of brains that smooth, hard tires roll with
less resistance than bumpy, knobby tires. I shouldn't have to prove it for you.
One ride would do it.

..How come there are no fat tire racing bikes? Aerodynamics and weight. trump
..the rolling resistance difference. Oh, and construction.
..
..> .What do YOU ride, Mikey? Still riding that 3-speed cruiser? Care to
..compare
..> .the aerodynamics between a sit-up-and-beg cruiser with a MTB?
..>
..> Who cares? I like to enjoy biking, not torture myself and others.
..
..It DOES make a difference, Mikey. Denigrate the efficiency of one style of
..bike, when you yourself ride something worse?

I don't ride for "efficiency", since I'm not a machine.

..Knowing what you ride helps provide a frame of reference for your opinions.

BS. It has nothing to do with the FACT that mountain bikes have greater rolling
resistance.
..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

On Mon, 31 May 2004 04:06:46 GMT, Van Bagnol <[email protected]> wrote:

..In article <[email protected]>,
.. [email protected] (James Lynx) wrote:
..
..> I'm curious about something. I have been reading this forum on
..> Mountain Bikes and notice that a lot of you either have two mountain
..> bikes, one for mountain biking, and one with street/road tires for
..> riding on the street, or you have one bike and you have two sets of
..> tires/rims, one with knobs for the mountain biking and one with street
..> tires.
..[snip]
..> So why do you ride a mountain bike on the road instead of riding a
..> road bike or even a cruiser?
..
..1. One can ride a mountain bike on the road. One cannot ride a road
.. bike off-road.

Not a good reason. You should stay on pavement anyway.

..2. A low-end entry-level road bike costs roughly the same ($1000)
.. as an upper-mid-level mountain bike. You can buy two entry-level
.. MTBs for the price of a single entry-level road bike.

BS. My 3-speed was $25, and works just as well or better than an mountain bike
on pavement.

..3. A mountain bike has a softer ride, a more comfortable riding
.. position, and better visibility than a road bike.

Not better than my 3-speed. Straight handlebars are stupid, and force you to put
weight on your arms, which humans haven't evolved for.

..4. You can ride off and on curbs, down stairs, and over potholes with
.. less chance of damage to a mountain bike than to a road bike.

Not a good reason. There's no reason to do that anyway.

..5. A road bike is lighter, allowing faster climbing given the same
.. gearing. However, a mountain bike has lower gearing and a wider
.. gearing range than a road bike, allowing a rider to climb hills
.. easier, albeit slower, while still being able to reach acceptable
.. speeds on the flats.

A road bike doesn't need those extra speeds. In fact, I only use one speed.

..Van

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Pete · May 31, 2004

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> They are built to withstand the beating that you get on trails, but not on
the
> street (unless you like riding off curbs etc., which is stupid).

You seem to be spectacularly uninformed about biking in general, not just
mountain bikes.
How, in your opinion, is a mountain bike, mounted with slicks, inefficient,
as compared to <something else>?

>
> .Perhaps you're thinking of the specialized engineless motorcycles known
as
> .'DH' bikes. The vast majority of mountain bikes are not like that. As you
> .well know.
>
> BS. They are designed to take a beating, which road bikes are not subject
to.

Potholes and cobblestones are not much different than tree roots and rocks.

> .Come now, Mikey. You dispute scientific studies comparing different
street
> .tires? Done with no thought of mountain biking?
> .Do you have any different data? I'd like to see it.
> .("It's obvious" is not data)
>
> It's obvious to anyone with an ounce of brains that smooth, hard tires
roll with
> less resistance than bumpy, knobby tires. I shouldn't have to prove it for
you.
> One ride would do it.

Reading deficiency, Mikey? You know very well I specified "different street
tires" in the wide vs narrow comment.
Sure knobbies, on the street, are less efficient than slicks. And you also
know full well that there are many, many slick, high pressure tires
available in mountain bike sizes.

I have a bike sitting right here in my living room with a set mounted.
Pumped up to ~90psi. Quite a comfortable, fast ride. I just came back from
dodging cicadas on a ride to the store.

> I don't ride for "efficiency", since I'm not a machine.

Just a simple question, Mikey. What type of bike(s) do you ride? I'm
genuinely interested.

Pete

Stephen Baker · May 31, 2004

MV blurts:

>Straight handlebars are stupid, and force you to put
>weight on your arms, which humans haven't evolved for.

"Stupid"? Interesting concept, since they obviously have no brains...

As for "evolved for", we did not evolve to sit our butts on a skinny-****
little saddle, either, but that hasn't stopped you from doing it, has it?

Stupid!

Steve

James Lynx · May 31, 2004

Westie, thanks for the reply. You didn't miss that. I did answer my
own question but I know why I ride a mountain bike on the streets but
what you missed was I was curious about the rest of you since biking
is such a personal thing.

Thanks,

James

"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> James Lynx wrote:
> > I'm curious about something. I have been reading this forum on
> > Mountain Bikes and notice that a lot of you either have two mountain
> > bikes, one for mountain biking, and one with street/road tires for
> > riding on the street, or you have one bike and you have two sets of
> > tires/rims, one with knobs for the mountain biking and one with street
> > tires.
> >
> > Curious why you choose to ride a mountain bike on the streets instead
> > of a road bike. I am getting back into riding bikes after a 20 year
> > break from it. I'm 36 and used to ride a BMX Team Mongoose which I
> > still have but am too big for it now. I never liked your traditional
> > 10 speed bike, or as they call them now street bikes. I was even
> > considering fixing up my Mongoose and riding it again on the streets
> > but realized that I'm too big for that bike. I could do it but it
> > wouldn't be a pretty site. So the next logical step would be to get
> > another bike. Okay which one? I don't care for road bikes. They are
> > cool for some people but for me not my cup of tea so to speak. Okay
> > so what do I get a cruiser or a mountain bike? The cruiser I tried
> > was very nice. Very comfortable bike but I think I wanted something
> > more durable and also the option to jump off curbs and occassionally
> > ride on dirt. So I go for a mountain bike. Not a high end mountain
> > bike BUT a pretty good Fuji Discovery II. I think it's a good bike.
> > So far so good. I still kinda want to get a cruiser bike but for now
> > the mountain suits my needs. I changed the tires to street/road
> > tires because the tires with knobs create too much resistance in my
> > riding and it gets hard to ride especially in hilly areas where I
> > live. Maybe one day I'll get a cruiser and ride that on the street,
> > put mountain bike tires back on the Fuji and go off roading.
> >
> > So why do you ride a mountain bike on the road instead of riding a
> > road bike or even a cruiser?
>
> Did I miss something or didn't you answer your own question?
> If you don't like road bikes, don't want a cruiser, feel too old to be
> riding a BMX and do want something a little more robust to jump off kerbs, a
> mountainbike is a logical choice.

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:40:19 -0400, "The Nelson Paradigm"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..| On Sun, 30 May 2004 14:14:48 -0400, "The Nelson Paradigm"
..| <[email protected]> wrote:
..|
..| .BB wrote:
..| .| On 29 May 2004 22:45:48 -0700, James Lynx wrote:
..| .|
..| .|| So why do you ride a mountain bike on the road instead of riding a
..| .|| road bike or even a cruiser?
..| .|
..| .| A lot of us bought a low- or mid-range bike first, then upgraded a
..| .| couple of year later. That other bike makes a good road-beater.
..| .|
..| .| Also, a lot of us don't hold a lot of confidence in the durability
..| of .| those skinny-wheeled road bikes, particularly in suburban/urban
..| .| situations where there may be curbs to cross, as well as potholes,
..| .| grates, etc.
..| .
..| .The mountain bike's main popularity was its practicality. It took
..| over from .the Road Bike (then known as the "10-speed") because it
..| was more comfortable .and easier to use.
..|
..| You've got to be kidding. MTBs have greater rolling resistance and
..| not a comfortable riding position.
..
..Uh, no. You only get higher rolling resistance if you have aggressive
..knobbies. Many of those early mountain bikes had center ridge tires and
..therefore low RR. Comparing the riding position of an early MTB to a
..70s/80s 10-speed (road bike) there is no contest. Now, maybe you're more
..comfortable on them, but I'm sure not.
..
..Then maybe you're riding a 3-speed "english" that's not much different from
..a cruiser. Oh yeah, I forgot, the first MTBs were made out of cruisers.

But not the current ones. The straight handlebars must be for image, because
they CERTAINLY aren't for comfort! Whom do you think you are kidding?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

On Mon, 31 May 2004 19:58:56 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
..>
..> They are built to withstand the beating that you get on trails, but not on
..the
..> street (unless you like riding off curbs etc., which is stupid).
..
..You seem to be spectacularly uninformed about biking in general, not just
..mountain bikes.
..How, in your opinion, is a mountain bike, mounted with slicks, inefficient,
..as compared to <something else>?

Heavier & more gears. Why do you think that track bikes have no breaks & only
one gear?

..> .Perhaps you're thinking of the specialized engineless motorcycles known
..as
..> .'DH' bikes. The vast majority of mountain bikes are not like that. As you
..> .well know.
..>
..> BS. They are designed to take a beating, which road bikes are not subject
..to.
..
..Potholes and cobblestones are not much different than tree roots and rocks.

And if you can't avoid them, you can't ride. Or you need to lean on your city
government.

..> .Come now, Mikey. You dispute scientific studies comparing different
..street
..> .tires? Done with no thought of mountain biking?
..> .Do you have any different data? I'd like to see it.
..> .("It's obvious" is not data)
..>
..> It's obvious to anyone with an ounce of brains that smooth, hard tires
..roll with
..> less resistance than bumpy, knobby tires. I shouldn't have to prove it for
..you.
..> One ride would do it.
..
..Reading deficiency, Mikey? You know very well I specified "different street
..tires" in the wide vs narrow comment.
..Sure knobbies, on the street, are less efficient than slicks.

And that's what most people have on their mountain bikes.

And you also
..know full well that there are many, many slick, high pressure tires
..available in mountain bike sizes.

Not as slick, nor as high pressure as road tires.

..I have a bike sitting right here in my living room with a set mounted.
..Pumped up to ~90psi. Quite a comfortable, fast ride. I just came back from
..dodging cicadas on a ride to the store.
..
..> I don't ride for "efficiency", since I'm not a machine.
..
..Just a simple question, Mikey. What type of bike(s) do you ride? I'm
..genuinely interested.

3-speed (only high works). $25 and works as well as any bike, for what I need.

..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman · May 31, 2004

On 31 May 2004 20:59:13 GMT, [email protected]ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote:

..MV blurts:
..
..>Straight handlebars are stupid, and force you to put
..>weight on your arms, which humans haven't evolved for.
..
.."Stupid"? Interesting concept, since they obviously have no brains...
..
..As for "evolved for", we did not evolve to sit our butts on a skinny-****
..little saddle, either, but that hasn't stopped you from doing it, has it?

Yes, it has. I have never used one.

..Stupid!
..
..Steve

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Dan · May 31, 2004

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> .As for "evolved for", we did not evolve to sit our butts on a skinny-****
> .little saddle, either, but that hasn't stopped you from doing it, has it?
>
> Yes, it has. I have never used one.

You don't use a seat?

Strangely that seems to fit the image I have of you.

Pete · Jun 1, 2004

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Heavier & more gears. Why do you think that track bikes have no breaks &
only
> one gear?

So mountain bikes are heavy and inefficient compared to minimalist racing
bikes. Thy sky is blue, and water is wet.
Now...how about talking about bikes that people actually ride?

> .> BS. They are designed to take a beating, which road bikes are not
subject
> .to.
> .
> .Potholes and cobblestones are not much different than tree roots and
rocks.
>
> And if you can't avoid them, you can't ride. Or you need to lean on your
city
> government.

Many of us live in areas where potholes and other road defects are a fact of
life. Places with 4 actual seasons.

But, as usual, you miss the point.

> .
> .Reading deficiency, Mikey? You know very well I specified "different
street
> .tires" in the wide vs narrow comment.
> .Sure knobbies, on the street, are less efficient than slicks.
>
> And that's what most people have on their mountain bikes.

That's their problem. Not one I have.

> And you also
> .know full well that there are many, many slick, high pressure tires
> .available in mountain bike sizes.
>
> Not as slick, nor as high pressure as road tires.

They *are* road tires, dumdum. They just happen to fit common mountain bike
rims.

> .> I don't ride for "efficiency", since I'm not a machine.
> .
> .Just a simple question, Mikey. What type of bike(s) do you ride? I'm
> .genuinely interested.
>
> 3-speed (only high works). $25 and works as well as any bike, for what I
need.

You're still riding that clunker? Care to contemplate the efficiency of your
broken 3 speed internal?

Pete

Stephen Baker · Jun 1, 2004

MV blurts:

>>Yes I can. Bicycling is about freedom.
>
>... without responsibility.

So you admit you are irresponsible, Mike, since you bicycle? Nelson wasn't
talking about MTBiking, just biking.

Mike Vandeman · Jun 1, 2004

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:53:41 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
..>
..> Heavier & more gears. Why do you think that track bikes have no breaks &
..only
..> one gear?
..
..So mountain bikes are heavy and inefficient compared to minimalist racing
..bikes. Thy sky is blue, and water is wet.
..Now...how about talking about bikes that people actually ride?

The same applies, for the same reason. Boy, you guys are dense.

..> .> BS. They are designed to take a beating, which road bikes are not
..subject
..> .to.
..> .
..> .Potholes and cobblestones are not much different than tree roots and
..rocks.
..>
..> And if you can't avoid them, you can't ride. Or you need to lean on your
..city
..> government.
..
..Many of us live in areas where potholes and other road defects are a fact of
..life. Places with 4 actual seasons.

So what? A mountain bike is still overbuilt for street riding.

..But, as usual, you miss the point.
..
..> .
..> .Reading deficiency, Mikey? You know very well I specified "different
..street
..> .tires" in the wide vs narrow comment.
..> .Sure knobbies, on the street, are less efficient than slicks.
..>
..> And that's what most people have on their mountain bikes.
..
..That's their problem. Not one I have.
..
..> And you also
..> .know full well that there are many, many slick, high pressure tires
..> .available in mountain bike sizes.
..>
..> Not as slick, nor as high pressure as road tires.
..
..They *are* road tires, dumdum. They just happen to fit common mountain bike
..rims.

Implying that they are WIDER than normal road tires, and hence have more rolling
resistance. DUH!

..> .> I don't ride for "efficiency", since I'm not a machine.
..> .
..> .Just a simple question, Mikey. What type of bike(s) do you ride? I'm
..> .genuinely interested.
..>
..> 3-speed (only high works). $25 and works as well as any bike, for what I
..need.
..
..You're still riding that clunker? Care to contemplate the efficiency of your
..broken 3 speed internal?

Try saying that in English.

..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman · Jun 1, 2004

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:21:50 +1200, "Dan" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> .As for "evolved for", we did not evolve to sit our butts on a skinny-****
..> .little saddle, either, but that hasn't stopped you from doing it, has it?
..>
..> Yes, it has. I have never used one.
..
..You don't use a seat?
..
..Strangely that seems to fit the image I have of you.

Read your own post. DUH!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Pete · Jun 1, 2004

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
> .
> .So mountain bikes are heavy and inefficient compared to minimalist racing
> .bikes. Thy sky is blue, and water is wet.
> .Now...how about talking about bikes that people actually ride?
>
> The same applies, for the same reason. Boy, you guys are dense.

Gears. Most bikes sold today have multiple gears.
Road/City/Hybrid/Comfort/MTB. Irrelevant.
Brakes. Most bikes sold today have two brakes. Irrelevant.
Frames. Stip a low end road bike, and a low end MTB down to the bare frame,
and I'd be surprised if you found more than a pound or so difference. Hardly
'overbuilt'

> .They *are* road tires, dumdum. They just happen to fit common mountain
bike
> .rims.
>
> Implying that they are WIDER than normal road tires, and hence have more
rolling
> resistance. DUH!

Please show some data illustrating that point. I've posted data to the
opposite. Your turn.

> .
> .You're still riding that clunker? Care to contemplate the efficiency of
your
> .broken 3 speed internal?

>
> Try saying that in English.

Run out of things to say?

Pete

angotja · Jun 1, 2004

MTBs offer more versatility and durability. If I were to ride a road
bike on my daily commute, I would certainly wreck at least once a week,
and probably crack a rim/rib or two. Be smart ride different bikes. Buy
the one that fits your needs.

--

Mike Vandeman · Jun 1, 2004

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:18:38 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote
..> .
..> .So mountain bikes are heavy and inefficient compared to minimalist racing
..> .bikes. Thy sky is blue, and water is wet.
..> .Now...how about talking about bikes that people actually ride?
..>
..> The same applies, for the same reason. Boy, you guys are dense.
..
..Gears. Most bikes sold today have multiple gears.

10, not 15 or 21.

..Road/City/Hybrid/Comfort/MTB. Irrelevant.
..Brakes. Most bikes sold today have two brakes. Irrelevant.
..Frames. Stip a low end road bike, and a low end MTB down to the bare frame,
..and I'd be surprised if you found more than a pound or so difference. Hardly
..'overbuilt'

If that were true, we wouldn't need mountain bikes. There must be some
difference, or people would be mountain biking on 10-speeds.

..> .They *are* road tires, dumdum. They just happen to fit common mountain
..bike
..> .rims.
..>
..> Implying that they are WIDER than normal road tires, and hence have more
..rolling
..> resistance. DUH!
..
..Please show some data illustrating that point. I've posted data to the
..opposite. Your turn.

Something so obvious doesn't need "data". It is simple physics.

..> .You're still riding that clunker? Care to contemplate the efficiency of
..your
..> .broken 3 speed internal?

..>
..> Try saying that in English.
..
..Run out of things to say?

Can't answer that one, huh?

..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

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