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pedaling push up push down

post #1 of 2683
4/14/05 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
i tried searching all over for what the push up part of proper pedalling mans but to no avail. I do not comprehend what the pushing up part is, i.e. what do youpush up???? Some help would be appreciated as I have searched all over and cant seem to comprehend what pushing up is, i can understand what pushing down is though
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post #2 of 2683
4/14/05 at 2:54pm

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurricane
i tried searching all over for what the push up part of proper pedalling mans but to no avail. I do not comprehend what the pushing up part is, i.e. what do youpush up???? Some help would be appreciated as I have searched all over and cant seem to comprehend what pushing up is, i can understand what pushing down is though
I myself pull up and push down. When i pedal.
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post #3 of 2683
4/14/05 at 5:30pm

Re: pealling push up push down

The most efficient way to cycle is to apply the force from your legs at right angles to the crank, if you aren't then your wasting energy trying to break your cranks!!


E.g at the top of the pedal stroke you need to pushing directly forward, quarter of the way through, strait down. Half way through, straight back. Three quarters of the way through the stroke, straight up.
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post #4 of 2683
4/14/05 at 5:58pm

Re: pealling push up push down

If you have a trainer, set up a chair beside your bike and rest one of your feet on it, clip the other foot in, and pedal for a minute or two with one leg; switch, and repeat maybe 3 times.

After a while you will understand 'pedalling the full circle'.
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post #5 of 2683
4/14/05 at 7:14pm

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catabolic Jones
If you have a trainer, set up a chair beside your bike and rest one of your feet on it, clip the other foot in, and pedal for a minute or two with one leg; switch, and repeat maybe 3 times.

After a while you will understand 'pedalling the full circle'.
in all honesty this is a waste of time. In the seminal work by Coyle et al, 91, they used force instrumented pedals and compared two groups of cyclists elite and state level. the better cyclists pushed down more and pulled up less, while the less good cyclists pushed down less and pulled up more on the pedals.

i would not bother learning how to orientate the forces when pedalling, just learn to produce more power (i.e., get fitter).

ric
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post #6 of 2683
4/15/05 at 8:47am

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
in all honesty this is a waste of time. In the seminal work by Coyle et al, 91, they used force instrumented pedals and compared two groups of cyclists elite and state level. the better cyclists pushed down more and pulled up less, while the less good cyclists pushed down less and pulled up more on the pedals.

i would not bother learning how to orientate the forces when pedalling, just learn to produce more power (i.e., get fitter).

ric


Coyle's knowledge of pedalling appears to have been very limited. If he had compared those who pushed down more with no unweighting of idling pedal against those who pushed down more with correct total unweighting of idling pedal only and no unnecessary pulling up, results would have been very different. Pulling up and unweighting are two very different types of pedalling and that is where the confusion is arising.
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post #7 of 2683
4/15/05 at 8:57am

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by n crowley
Coyle's knowledge of pedalling appears to have been very limited.
yes, i had forgotten this Noel. much apologies. the whole of the sports science world is against you and the memory of maitre Jacque.

We all eagerly anticipate your information about the correct way of pedalling that only you have been able to glean, probably through a seance where JA attended.

in the meantime i am purchasing a ouija board and shall send a message to Ed Coyle and see if he and others can can summon up the ghost of Jacque so that we can ascertain the correct way of pedalling and alleviate all our symptoms to boot.



ric
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post #8 of 2683
4/15/05 at 12:22pm

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
yes, i had forgotten this Noel. much apologies. the whole of the sports science world is against you and the memory of maitre Jacque.

We all eagerly anticipate your information about the correct way of pedalling that only you have been able to glean, probably through a seance where JA attended.

in the meantime i am purchasing a ouija board and shall send a message to Ed Coyle and see if he and others can can summon up the ghost of Jacque so that we can ascertain the correct way of pedalling and alleviate all our symptoms to boot.



ric




NO problem Ric, while the technique is already perfected, it's now just a matter of finding the best way of demonstrating it and that is almost complete too. While the quickness of the hand can deceive the eye, in ja's case, it was the quickness of the leg and upper body muscle movements which did the deceiving. I have now slowed it down with some good both on and off the bike examples of how the power is generated and applied to the pedals. But remember, no pedalling style is ideal for all situations that arise in competitive cycling and JA's technique works best in solo riding where one can ride at constant max power output, it does not like interruptions once cruising speed is reached.
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post #9 of 2683
4/16/05 at 4:57pm

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by n crowley
NO problem Ric, while the technique is already perfected, it's now just a matter of finding the best way of demonstrating it and that is almost complete too. While the quickness of the hand can deceive the eye, in ja's case, it was the quickness of the leg and upper body muscle movements which did the deceiving. I have now slowed it down with some good both on and off the bike examples of how the power is generated and applied to the pedals. But remember, no pedalling style is ideal for all situations that arise in competitive cycling and JA's technique works best in solo riding where one can ride at constant max power output, it does not like interruptions once cruising speed is reached.
Noel, it appears you have now arrived at a provable conclusion after all these years of digging and delving into the mysteries of JA's pedal style.

Can you provide a slow motion video (preferably with a watts reading)?
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post #10 of 2683
4/17/05 at 6:12pm

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloFlash
Noel, it appears you have now arrived at a provable conclusion after all these years of digging and delving into the mysteries of JA's pedal style.

Can you provide a slow motion video (preferably with a watts reading)?


A slow motion video of the linear pedalling style would be no different from providing a slow motion video of Anquetil's pedalling action on the video of his racing years, it would reveal nothing. What I mean by slowing it down is slowing down what is happening under the skin, mentally and in the muscles.
You need to use simplified off the bike examples to get the message of the correct power generating technique across especially when applying max power through the dead spot area 11 to 1 o'c. The mystery of Anquetil's pedalling could have been solved many years ago if someone had attempted
the simple task of making it possible to combine maximum arm resistance with leg power when riding at speed in the saddle, all the other advantages both medical and performance would have automatically followed.
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post #11 of 2683
4/19/05 at 2:41am

Re: pealling push up push down

The upward pulling portion has been touted as a means to propel the bike but it is now recognized to only provide an unweighting of the leg in the upward direction.
Yes, work on getting fit, but recognizing the fundamental importance of the spin is crucial.
I myself have been complimented on my spin from time to time, the last instance the guy had quite a good chance to examine it as he rolled by at will....





Quote:
Originally Posted by n crowley
Coyle's knowledge of pedalling appears to have been very limited. If he had compared those who pushed down more with no unweighting of idling pedal against those who pushed down more with correct total unweighting of idling pedal only and no unnecessary pulling up, results would have been very different. Pulling up and unweighting are two very different types of pedalling and that is where the confusion is arising.
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post #12 of 2683
4/19/05 at 2:45am

Re: pealling push up push down

Do we then, understand you to now advocate the lifting of weights, as it is provides the benefits of increasing wattage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
in all honesty this is a waste of time. In the seminal work by Coyle et al, 91, they used force instrumented pedals and compared two groups of cyclists elite and state level. the better cyclists pushed down more and pulled up less, while the less good cyclists pushed down less and pulled up more on the pedals.

i would not bother learning how to orientate the forces when pedalling, just learn to produce more power (i.e., get fitter).

ric
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post #13 of 2683
4/19/05 at 4:33am

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypnospin
Do we then, understand you to now advocate the lifting of weights, as it is provides the benefits of increasing wattage?
in endurance cycling performance it does *NOT* increase power in trained cyclists.

ric
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post #14 of 2683
4/19/05 at 10:20am

Re: pealling push up push down

I agree that weights don't provide much power assistance for elite cyclists, but they do assist in muscle growth which can be useful to some cyclists.

There is a clear seperation between gym performance and race performance, but gym work does have a role to play avoiding or treating injuries.

This idea that pulling up on the pedals doesn't help the rider is bizare. Why don't we return to nylon cleats and toe clips?

Pulling on the pedal does create power, but many who have specialised in pushing using the quads and hamstrings can produce alot of power.

This doesn't mean that the weekend racer can't improve his power output by adding a pull section to his pedal stroke.

The trick is to maintain the power of the push while adding the pull, to the point where it becomes a full circle or power output.

As power meters wern't overly common 15 years ago, I'm more inclined to listen to the latest research, but what works for one rider doesn't nessesarily work for another.
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post #15 of 2683
4/19/05 at 10:31am

Re: pealling push up push down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brizza
I agree that weights don't provide much power assistance for elite cyclists, but they do assist in muscle growth which can be useful to some cyclists.
but not for anyone (in ECP) who is trained. In fact "muscle growth" (increase in muscle cross sectional area) in ECP is likely to be detrimental

Quote:
There is a clear seperation between gym performance and race performance, but gym work does have a role to play avoiding or treating injuries.
again, there's no evidence to support this. i know more people who are injured in the gym or cross training than from any other modality

Quote:
This idea that pulling up on the pedals doesn't help the rider is bizare. Why don't we return to nylon cleats and toe clips?

Pulling on the pedal does create power, but many who have specialised in pushing using the quads and hamstrings can produce alot of power.

This doesn't mean that the weekend racer can't improve his power output by adding a pull section to his pedal stroke.
there isn't any evidence to support this notion (that pulling up increases performance). what we do know is that better cyclists either push down more or pulling up makes no difference.

Quote:
As power meters wern't overly common 15 years ago, I'm more inclined to listen to the latest research, but what works for one rider doesn't nessesarily work for another.
irrespective of whether power meters were widely available 15 years ago (although they have long been used in the lab) there isn't any research that shows that pulling up increases performance*

* there is evidence that MTBers do need to pull up more, and push down less when riding over lose, 'slippy' ground. If they push down too hard the rear wheel is liable to spin and lose traction.

ric
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