2nd-hand track bike - advice needed

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:51:06 +1000, hippy wrote:

> (X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)
>
> I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner. I'd like any opinions
> about such a setup as a beginner track bike:
>
> Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm)
> Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)

> Without the trainer and shoes, he wants $500AUD which is about the cost of
> a new Miche track groupset these days, I believe.
> He said the frame is 30 years old but in top condition and really stiff -
> but then of course he is going to say that!

Well, the thirty years old is probably true, if it's 531. I ride such a
track bike. The condition of the bike and the saddle (if you want a
Brooks saddle) will matter a lot in terms of its value.

> 55cm is slightly smaller than the 56cm road frame I currently ride - does
> track geometry differ vastly from road geometry? Would this be in my
> region for sizing?

Probably. It used to be standard advice to go about 1cm smaller in a
track frame -- but that was in the days when road frames were typically
sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube length
and other things to see if it really fits.

Geometry of a track bike of that vintage was steep and tight for the time, which
makes it about standard for road bikes now.

> It has brand new singles which he said had been raced on once and are
> quite expensive,

It does depend on how long they have sat in the garage since.

along with Record hubs and even a spare set of wheels
> which, I assume, take clincher tyres for training rides. I have a frame
> sitting at home that I was going to build into a cheap track bike but I
> just can't get cheap parts for it quick enough so this looks like the next
> best thing. It's still cheaper than buying a new track bike for
~$1000AUD.

Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track bike,
the frame itself will be a pound to two pounds heavier. It will not be as
stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get now. The components are
good -- if the hubs have been taken care of. Those Campy hubs were
beautifully made. I still have a set, though I don't use them since they
are still laced up to tubular rims.

> So, assuming this bike is in good condition, would you recommend it?

Possibly

> What would you look for in a second hand track bike?

Frame condition; evidence of crashes or serious repair.

> What questions should I ask the guy before driving miles away to check it
> out?

He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how badly --
or if a tube has been replaced. Ask him what brand it is. That can tell
you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a Cinelli or Masi, then at
least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a post-1972
Legnano, maybe not.

> What should I look for on it if I do drive miles away to check it out?

Ride it. See how it feels. Is it the type of bike you are looking for?
Track bikes are not all alike. Back then, a sprint bike would have round
fork tubes, really beefy lugs, steep angles, and would be strongly built
for the abuse a sprinter would mete out. A pursuit bike would have more
road-like angles and lugs, would be somewhat lighter (by the standards of
the day), and might be more comfortable for road use.

Are you planning to race this?  What event? For a pursuit specialist I
can't see getting 30-year old iron. You give away too much weight
penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something built for the
task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong,
heavier bikes (I've seen steel bars on some even recently), so that would
not be so much of a negative.

If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like.
However, do plan to hang a brake on the front -- and make sure the crown
can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big, thick Nervex crown which
is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

David Johnson covers this much more thoroughly than I can, but I'll refer
you to the fixed gear list at:

http://lists.davintech.ca

--

alan

Anyone who believes in a liberal media has never read the "Daily Oklahoman."


"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> (X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)
>
> I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner.
> I'd like any opinions about such a setup as a
> beginner track bike:
>
> Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm)
> Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)
> Reynolds 351 tubing (I assume he means 531?)
> extra wheels for training,
> Campag record hubs ($400AUD new)
> Conti singles (used once)
> Look clipless pedals
> Cinelli alu bar/stem
> Sugino cranks
> 6 chainrings
> Shimano size 44 shoes
> HomeMageTrainer
> $650AUD
>

"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<lots of good stuff about a lovely sounding track bike>

For $500, how far wrong can you go? Even if the frame is complete junk, I'm
sure it'd have $500 worth of parts on it.

Is it actually possible to have too many bikes?

Regards,

Suzy

PS: If you do decide you don't want it, please let me know the details of
the seller so I can buy it

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube
length
> and other things to see if it really fits.

How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms
of fore/aft movement, if the top tube length wasn't optimal?

> Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track
bike,
> the frame itself will be a pound to two pounds heavier. It will not
be as
> stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get now. The components are

Does weight really matter that much on a track bike? Especially one used
by a total track novice?

> He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how
badly --
> or if a tube has been replaced. Ask him what brand it is.

I did ask about brand and he didn't know, so I guess he bought it second
hand as well. It's probably had 20 coats of paint in its 30 year life.
If I
do go and have a look at it, I'll check for any distictive markings.
Actually
if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it

> you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a Cinelli or Masi, then
at
> least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a
post-1972
> Legnano, maybe not.

Other than paint and stickers, is there any way to tell what brand it
could
be?

> Are you planning to race this? What event? For a pursuit specialist I
> can't see getting 30-year old iron. You give away too much weight
> penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something built for
the
> task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong,
> heavier bikes (I've seen steel bars on some even recently), so that
would
> not be so much of a negative.

Well, I want to give track racing a shot. It's difficult/impossible for
me
to arrive early enough to use club bikes and I wanted to avoid spending
$1k on a new one. As for types of events, I have no idea. I doubt I will
be very competitive starting out anyway.

> If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like.
> However, do plan to hang a brake on the front -- and make sure the
crown
> can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big, thick Nervex crown
which
> is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.

That is a slight problem - I would like to try fixed-gear on the road
but
track bikes have no brakes. I will have to check out the crown as you
say. What are the chances of fitting a different fork to it for road
use?

Thanks muchly,
hippy

"Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For $500, how far wrong can you go? Even if the frame is complete
junk, I'm
> sure it'd have $500 worth of parts on it.

Yeah, well that's what I was thinking. It does sound to me like
a pretty good option - but I don't know anything about track
bikes, hence this post.

> Is it actually possible to have too many bikes?

Well, I have 7 at the moment (after getting rid of the kiddy bike)
and I am quite low on space in my unit with all my other ****...
But I'll always find room for another bike

> PS: If you do decide you don't want it, please let me know the
details of
> the seller so I can buy it

I will do that.

hippy

Just a general comment: don't buy a track bike from someone who says
they've never crashed it. Everyone has had a few big stacks on the
track, but a decent frame takes the abuse anyway.

I wouldn't spend too much on it until you're hooked. If you buy second
hand you don;t usually lose much if you decide not to race after all.
(I'm only saying this becuase I've seen people who race track once, get
spooked and never come back).



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

"Shabby" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just a general comment: don't buy a track bike from someone who says
> they've never crashed it. Everyone has had a few big stacks on the
> track, but a decent frame takes the abuse anyway.

Well if it is in good nick and it's 30 years old it's doing ok

> I wouldn't spend too much on it until you're hooked. If you buy second
> hand you don;t usually lose much if you decide not to race after all.

I haven't seen anything except frames for less than $500 so it does
sound like a good deal to me. I already want it, but I wanted to hear
of any issues before shelling out the dollars...

> (I'm only saying this becuase I've seen people who race track once,
get
> spooked and never come back).

Yeah, that'll be me.. no doubt I lose it over the banking and end up
impalled on a still rotating crank... sounds like my style.

hippy

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:54:49 +0000, hippy wrote:

> "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube
> length
>> and other things to see if it really fits.
>
> How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms of fore/aft
> movement, if the top tube length wasn't optimal?

Huh? You might mean one of two things here.

1) How many other "track
stems" are available, and in what lengths. The answer to that is that
there is not really a "track stem", any good stem will do. Hard core
sprinters may want something really beefy, but for most of us, there is no
problem. Now, you mentioned Cinelli bars. You need a stem that matches
the Cinelli 26.4mm diameter. That is not easy to find these days, but
some do exist. You can also get new bars for a reasonable price and use
commonly-available stems.

2) There are a few _adjustable_ stems out there, including some
commonly used on track bikes. Major Taylor invented an early adjustable
stem. Maybe this bike has one? If so, typically they have quite a bit of
adjustment.

> Does weight really matter that much on a track bike? Especially one used
> by a total track novice?

No, not really. As a bike to get you into the sport, it could be just
fine. If it's in good condition it'll get a lot of appreciative attention.

> Actually
> if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it

I probably would, too.

> Other than paint and stickers, is there any way to tell what brand it
> could
> be?

Sure, within reason. All three of the brands I mentioned are pretty
distincitive. Lug design is key to determining brand for many frames.
But a lot of good frames used lugs like Nervex, so it would be hard to
tell one of those from another -- and it wouldn't matter much, since those
would all be pretty similar -- and good quality.

> That is a slight problem - I would like to try fixed-gear on the road but
> track bikes have no brakes. I will have to check out the crown as you say.
> What are the chances of fitting a different fork to it for road use?

Pretty good, actually. Modern forks tend to be 700c with tight
clearances and short rake, quite similar to track forks of the 70s in size
and rake. The crown height might be a bit more than this old one, but
probably not enough to matter. But swapping out a fork would be tedius if
you are going to use a separate fork for the road. You can, of course,
use a new fork on the track and even save a bit of weight. On the other
hand, a good fork might cost what this bike costs.

I drilled a hole in my fork crown 30 years ago, and it hasn't broken yet.
A pursuit bike might have been a different story, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

i'd buy it so long as the frame is still straight.
a slightly smaller frame on the tarck is ok.
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:51:06 +1000, hippy wrote:
>
> > (X-POST: aus.bicycle, rec.bicycles.misc)
> >
> > I spotted this bike for sale and spoke to the owner. I'd like any
opinions
> > about such a setup as a beginner track bike:
> >
> > Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm)
> > Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)
>
> > Without the trainer and shoes, he wants $500AUD which is about the cost
of
> > a new Miche track groupset these days, I believe.
> > He said the frame is 30 years old but in top condition and really
stiff -
> > but then of course he is going to say that!
>
> Well, the thirty years old is probably true, if it's 531. I ride such a
> track bike. The condition of the bike and the saddle (if you want a
> Brooks saddle) will matter a lot in terms of its value.
>
> > 55cm is slightly smaller than the 56cm road frame I currently ride -
does
> > track geometry differ vastly from road geometry? Would this be in my
> > region for sizing?
>
> Probably. It used to be standard advice to go about 1cm smaller in a
> track frame -- but that was in the days when road frames were typically
> sized larger than today. You will also have to check out top tube length
> and other things to see if it really fits.
>
> Geometry of a track bike of that vintage was steep and tight for the time,
which
> makes it about standard for road bikes now.
>
> > It has brand new singles which he said had been raced on once and are
> > quite expensive,
>
> It does depend on how long they have sat in the garage since.
>
> along with Record hubs and even a spare set of wheels
> > which, I assume, take clincher tyres for training rides. I have a frame
> > sitting at home that I was going to build into a cheap track bike but I
> > just can't get cheap parts for it quick enough so this looks like the
next
> > best thing. It's still cheaper than buying a new track bike for
> ~$1000AUD.
>
> Well, yes. It will be heavier, too. To compare this to a new track bike,
> the frame itself will be a pound to two pounds heavier. It will not be as
> stiff as a typical aluminum frame you can get now. The components are
> good -- if the hubs have been taken care of. Those Campy hubs were
> beautifully made. I still have a set, though I don't use them since they
> are still laced up to tubular rims.
>
> > So, assuming this bike is in good condition, would you recommend it?
>
> Possibly
>
> > What would you look for in a second hand track bike?
>
> Frame condition; evidence of crashes or serious repair.
>
> > What questions should I ask the guy before driving miles away to check
it
> > out?
>
> He's probably not going to tell you if he has crashed -- or how badly --
> or if a tube has been replaced. Ask him what brand it is. That can tell
> you a lot about the initial quality. If it's a Cinelli or Masi, then at
> least at one time it was definitely worth something. If it's a post-1972
> Legnano, maybe not.
>
> > What should I look for on it if I do drive miles away to check it out?
>
> Ride it. See how it feels. Is it the type of bike you are looking for?
> Track bikes are not all alike. Back then, a sprint bike would have round
> fork tubes, really beefy lugs, steep angles, and would be strongly built
> for the abuse a sprinter would mete out. A pursuit bike would have more
> road-like angles and lugs, would be somewhat lighter (by the standards of
> the day), and might be more comfortable for road use.
>
> Are you planning to race this? What event? For a pursuit specialist I
> can't see getting 30-year old iron. You give away too much weight
> penalty, when for a few hundred more you can get something built for the
> task. Sprinters are more conservative, and still tend to ride strong,
> heavier bikes (I've seen steel bars on some even recently), so that would
> not be so much of a negative.
>
> If you are just going to ride it, on the road, go for what you like.
> However, do plan to hang a brake on the front -- and make sure the crown
> can be drilled without problems. Mine has a big, thick Nervex crown which
> is vastly overengineered; drilling that was no problem.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
> _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
> (_)/ (_) |
>
>

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > How much adjustment could I expect from a track stem in terms of
fore/aft
> > movement, if the top tube length wasn't optimal?
>
> Huh? You might mean one of two things here.
>
> 1) How many other "track stems" are available, and in what lengths.

Yeah, that was what I meant.

> 2) There are a few _adjustable_ stems out there, including some

Nope, not adjustable.

> > Actually if I did drive to look at it I'd probably just buy it
>
> I probably would, too.

You're supposed to talk me out of it ;-)

> use a new fork on the track and even save a bit of weight. On the
other
> hand, a good fork might cost what this bike costs.
> I drilled a hole in my fork crown 30 years ago, and it hasn't broken
yet.
> A pursuit bike might have been a different story, though.

I think I will just have a look at it and decide on a course of action
from there. I might see how computer literate he is - he may be
able to email me some pictures of it?

Thanks again,
hippy

"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Track Bike with 22inch frame (55cm)
> Brooks saddle ($200AUD new?)
> Reynolds 351 tubing (I assume he means 531?)
> extra wheels for training,
> Campag record hubs ($400AUD new)
> Conti singles (used once)
> Look clipless pedals
> Cinelli alu bar/stem
> Sugino cranks
> 6 chainrings

Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I
bought this nice little ride tonight!
Another bike for me yay!
Another bike for me yay!

I tell you what though... I've got some SERIOUS
learning to do with that fixed gear!!!
It's totally freaky.. can't corner like normal, freak
coz I can't grab my brakes for a trackstand like
normal, can't trackstand pretty much at all on this
compared to my freewheel fitted bikes...
No brakes makes stopping VERY difficult - I mean
sure, you can slow down with back pressure (which
in itself feels weird) but you can't just STOP like you
would with brakes. Scary!
The bike itself appears to be in top condition as the
owner said. Came with a bunch of rings, some cogs,
tools, spare wheels.. uh everything listed above
It's blue with yellow Gibson stickers, yellow bar tape.
I'll get some photos on the web soon but until then,
any suggestions on the best way to learn these things?
I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork
crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the road
any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option?
Suggested starter gear? Should I go for the lowest or
not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest
would be a 45/17 combo.
Yeah, totally freaky experience not being able to
back pedal - I must level out the cranks ALL the
time with a freewheel!

stay tuned...
hippy

In rec.bicycles.misc hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
: Yeah, totally freaky experience not being able to
: back pedal - I must level out the cranks ALL the
: time with a freewheel!

one nice thing about having a front brake. at a stop-sign or whatever
hit the front brake push forward on the brake hoods to bring the rear wheel
off the ground and spin the crank into position. works great.

you really need a brake, though. my only bike for nearly 5 years was a
trackbike. the transition wasn't soooo bad. the one thing i hadn't
thought about was unclipping. i unclip my left foot first and the first
few times i came to a stop with my left foot high (not normally a problem
with a freewheel) i was unable to get it out and fell over.

learned me quick that did.

the other fixed gear specific weirdness .. cars think pedaling means going.
if they see you pedaling they don't think you're braking. buses would
honk at me repeatedly because they didn't think i was stopping for them.

and, of course it ain't going up hills that hurts, it's going down.
rollers, ice-biking and going down hills at 30-40mph with a 72" gear.

good luck ..
--
david reuteler
[email protected]

"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I

Not to worry, I've been talking to Sheldon, and have ordered some bits from
hit to turn my old roady into a fixie.

> I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork
> crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the road
> any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option?
> Suggested starter gear? Should I go for the lowest or
> not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest
> would be a 45/17 combo.

You might just be able to ride around deserted carparks or something, but I
imagine that'd get old real quick. Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork
for it, you can bung a caliper on that. Even better is that the road fork
will have a bit more rake that the track fork, so will make it a little less
of a handful on the road.

Congrats.

Regards,

Suzy

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:51:33 +1000, hippy wrote:

> I tell you what though... I've got some SERIOUS learning to do with that
> fixed gear!!! It's totally freaky.. can't corner like normal,

You'll get used to it.

> freak coz I
> can't grab my brakes for a trackstand like normal, can't trackstand pretty
> much at all on this compared to my freewheel fitted bikes...

The only bike I can decently trackstand on is my fixed gear. There is a
reason they call it a track stand. Use your pedals, not your brakes.

No brakes
> makes stopping VERY difficult - I mean sure, you can slow down with back
> pressure (which in itself feels weird) but you can't just STOP like you
> would with brakes. Scary!

If you ride on roads, get brakes.

> the best way to learn these things? I don't think I will be able to fit
> brakes to the fork crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the road
> any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option?

It would be. If you don't put brakes on it, a velodrome is the only safe
place. But if you are contemplating track racing, there is a velodrome
near you, right?

> Suggested starter
> gear? Should I go for the lowest or not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment.
> The lowest would be a 45/17 combo.

If you are on the track, then the 49/16 is not bad. I used to use a 48/15
most of the time, maybe a bit larger for pursuits -- not that I did well
at those.

> Yeah, totally freaky experience not being able to back pedal - I must
> level out the cranks ALL the time with a freewheel!

Soon you'll forget you can freewheel when you are on your road bike.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
_`\(,_ | certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to
(_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein

"Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork for it, you can bung a
> caliper on that. Even better is that the road fork will have a bit
> more rake that the track fork, so will make it a little less of a
> handful on the road.

More rake (offset) means less trail, means more of a handful, all else
being equal. The road fork will probably have slightly longer blades
though, decreasing the head angle a touch.

James Thomson

When I was a kid (bloody long time ago) I used to ride a track bike on
the raod. To stop quickly you unclip your right foot & put it on the
top ofthe back wheel & apply pressure. You usually only make the
mistake of putting your foot in the spokes once

John L.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 22:06:53 GMT, "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> Well thanks everyone and sorry Suzy J but I
>
>Not to worry, I've been talking to Sheldon, and have ordered some bits from
>hit to turn my old roady into a fixie.
>
>> I don't think I will be able to fit brakes to the fork
>> crown so I'm not going to be heading out on the road
>> any time soon.. is a velodrome my only other option?
>> Suggested starter gear? Should I go for the lowest or
>> not? It has 49/16 on it at the moment. The lowest
>> would be a 45/17 combo.
>
>You might just be able to ride around deserted carparks or something, but I
>imagine that'd get old real quick. Forks are cheap. If you buy a road fork
>for it, you can bung a caliper on that. Even better is that the road fork
>will have a bit more rake that the track fork, so will make it a little less
>of a handful on the road.
>
>Congrats.
>
>Regards,
>
>Suzy
>

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 12:17:28 GMT, John L <[email protected]> wrote:
> When I was a kid (bloody long time ago) I used to ride a track bike on
> the raod. To stop quickly you unclip your right foot & put it on the
> top ofthe back wheel & apply pressure. You usually only make the
> mistake of putting your foot in the spokes once

How about the mistake of trying that with the front wheel?

<G>

> John L.
--
Rick Onanian

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 07:20:12 +0200, James Thomson wrote:

> More rake (offset) means less trail, means more of a handful, all else
> being equal. The road fork will probably have slightly longer blades
> though, decreasing the head angle a touch.

Probably not. The standard now for road bike clearances is close to the
standard for track bike clearances 30 years ago. I've owned two such
bikes (still have one) and on the first one the clearances were larger
than my current road fork. Rake may be a bit less on the track fork, but
probably is 40mm (road forks vary from 40 to 45 IIRC).

--

David L. Johnson

__o | the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
_`\(,_ | That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
(_)/ (_) | attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism
and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any
<country. -- Hermann Goering

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The only bike I can decently trackstand on is my fixed gear. There is a
> reason they call it a track stand. Use your pedals, not your brakes.

Now that I think about it, I only use the brakes to stop at lights and
then trackstand without touching them. I think it must be the fact that
gear is higher and the fixed-gear moves backwards forcefully rather
than just rolling back. The fact that I can't spin back the cranks to
level out also causes me a bit of grief.. early days though, early days.

> It would be. If you don't put brakes on it, a velodrome is the only safe
> place. But if you are contemplating track racing, there is a velodrome
> near you, right?

Yep, went there yesterday. Not as far as I thought - 20min by (urgh) car.

> Soon you'll forget you can freewheel when you are on your road bike.

Cool

hippy