Custom bike fit - pay tip to fitter?

[[email protected]]

HappyBiker wrote:
> The 'not fun' comment was, perhaps, due to different expectations. The
> experience for me was that it was all too subjective. i.e. all 'how
> does it feel'. - that's important, and even critical, I know (I ride a
> lot) but I'd also hoped for more expertise on the part of the fitter.
> More objective, then subjective within that. But, not sure how that'd
> play out realistically anyway.

This is interesting. I had the same feelings of "subjectivity" that
you describe when I went through the fitting process some years ago.
Afterwards, I almost wondered whether or not the "fit technician" had
actually ever ridden bike in his life. I think there is a tendency
sometimes to think that there are fit gurus out there that can just
size you up for a bit and then instantly perch you perfectly on a bike.
I would guess that being a good fit pro is about striking a balance:
You don't want to be too dogmatic in your own views but then you don't
want to leave everything to customer subjectivity either.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> If I were offered a tip for what i consider professional services, I would
> consider the offer itself ample reward, and refuse the money. A person
> who angles for a tip under these circumstances is demeaning him/herself.

They might not see it that way; I've had a couple customers over the years
who try to tip or bribe (generally with food) to ensure that they get put at
the front of the line. That's an issue for me. Worst is when someone
attempts to "tip" or reward just one person, for doing them a favor (again,
this is nearly always an attempt to get their bike put at the front of
everyone else's). I fired one employee a number of years ago for doing
exactly that. Procedures and policies are not meant to be broken at will for
personal gain.

On the other hand, I don't have an issue with a customer who brings in
treats for everyone, *after* the work was done, not before. Money, no, still
won't take that. But home-baked cookies are not an issue. :>)

All right, now I'm getting a bit riled up. I don't like the "tips" cups on
counters. I think that's incredibly tacky. If someone wants to put a
small-change box out front, ok, fine, but I'm frequently off-put by
businesses that have a "tips" cup near the register. It looks like begging,
and simply not appropriate in a non-food-services business, in my humble
opinion.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If I were offered a tip for what i consider professional services, I would
> consider the offer itself ample reward, and refuse the money. A person
> who angles for a tip under these circumstances is demeaning him/herself.
>

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>HappyBiker wrote:
>> I was recently sized for a custom bike - not a fun experience!
>> However, during the fit, the sales person who was doing the fit
>> mentioned casually that most people give him a large tip because they
>> are so happy with his work. Is this a common thing - tipping the
>> custom bike fit people (he's in sales, but does custom fitting pretty
>> much full time). Has anyone else experienced this?
>
>No tip necessary and I'm surprised the fit person said somehting so
>dippy.
>
>"No reward for faithful service", the guy is just doing his job. If you
>were having a custom suit made, you wouldn't tip the tailor.

Exactly. I've done hundreds of "fits" (no double entendre'
intended...) and even custom designs, and have never, ever expected
anyone to tip me at all. Ever. If anyone ever mentioned it, I must
have blown it off without thinking about it further.

I did have one very nice customer send me a vintage European cycling
magazine as a "tip" after working with him over a very, very long time
to design an "unusual bike" for his non-cycling SO. I certainly
appreciated that, and it made the process much more worthwhile than
the cost of buying such a magazine would have cost.

FWIW

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[[email protected]]

HappyBiker wrote:
> I was recently sized for a custom bike - not a fun experience!
> However, during the fit, the sales person who was doing the fit
> mentioned casually that most people give him a large tip because they
> are so happy with his work. Is this a common thing - tipping the
> custom bike fit people (he's in sales, but does custom fitting pretty
> much full time). Has anyone else experienced this?

I come from Australia, where work culture and trade unionism has meant
a (generally) liveable wage for (most) workers. Tipping is viewed as
offensive, and degrading to both people involved, as it indicates
servility.

However, there are two customs which *equate* to tipping. Firstly, in
the case where a meal or taxi fare comes close to a whole number, or
where the taxi fare was very low, its socially permissable to say "Can
we just make that (whole number)?". This circumvents the problem with
servility because it makes dealing with change easier /etc, and is
viewed as such. The money involved is usually quite low (ie 8.55 "Lets
make that ten dollars" => 10.00).

Secondly, when I need alot of information or help from a staffer at a
technical/professional store, but aren't buying a major item that day,
I ask if they're paid on a commission basis, and if so what time they
work. That's so that they get paid for the time they already put into
cultivating me as a sale. I then go back and ask for the worker by
name. The bluntness (an admirable quality in Australian culture) gets
around the issue of asking someone about how they're paid, and the
conspiratorial tone (against the employer paying on a comission basis)
indicates a peer-relationship. If the worker isn't paid on a comission
basis, it doesn't offend, because its an obvious extension of
care/interest in their welfare as an individual.

Tip if you feel like it, or if your culture requires it and you feel
obligated by that culture. Personally with regards to bikes, I'm happy
taking my purchases to a self-run store where I know the workers/owners
make sure they get a real living out of their work, and where I'm
supporting a small LBS.

yours,
Sam Russell.

 

[Ron Ruff]

davet wrote:
> <rant> I hate it when servers ask "....if I would like
> change back..." when I give them money for the bill.<end rant>

Servers make a little over $2/hr salary in most states... and asking if
you want change can save a few minutes of time... if you don't.

 

[davet]

Here in Washington, where I live, servers make minimum wage which is
$7.63 hour. Regardless, what my rant was about is when someone *asks*
for a tip, I don't like it. A tip is **earned**, certainly not
automatic because someone has chosen to work in a certain career field.
A tip is a reward for doing a good job, enhancing the customers
experience, going the extra mile for the customer, and should be
treated as such.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >I was recently sized for a custom bike - not a fun experience!
> > However, during the fit, the sales person who was doing the fit
> > mentioned casually that most people give him a large tip because they
> > are so happy with his work. Is this a common thing - tipping the
> > custom bike fit people (he's in sales, but does custom fitting pretty
> > much full time). Has anyone else experienced this?
>
> Casually mentioning that most people give him a large tip is, to me, a
> rather rude thing to say. If someone were to say something like that to me,
> I'd be wondering, does the shop pay him for his time during the fitting, or
> does he make his money just on the tips? And what about everyone else in the
> shop? What is it about this one person that he/she deserves the tip and not
> the people who keep the doors open, from the youngest salesperson to the
> most-experienced mechanic? At some point you may be dependent on other
> people in the shop, just as the fitter is.
>
> I have turned down tips often (never taken one ever, for that matter), and
> my best employees do likewise.

I guess the drawback of a big shop. With only 3 of us, when one of us
drops everything and does something that the customer thinks is
amazing...not unusual to get a 6 pack of one's most favorite. We don't
get many $ tips but when we go above and beyond, we often get some
something..We don't work for beer, but after they pay for that
something, they often come back with something...nice of them.

..
I've noticed over the years that the
> employees who have accepted them are not the ones the customer would be best
> off with (and are not employees we've been happy with either, so they're
> gone after a short period of time). It's just not the way we do business; we
> don't do anything to encourage someone to believe they're running their own
> operation within the shop. But perhaps that's exactly what is going on at
> the shop you went to, by design.
>
> It doesn't leave me with a comfortable feeling though.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>oh - that does bring up another good question - the amount. thoughts
>of %15 keep flooding through my mind - %15 of $2500 is $375 which
>doesn't seem reasonable, but I think that $10 might be an insult. this
>does get complicated!

15%???? You've got to be kidding. I don't understand why they would expect
a tip. You are paying for the service already. Now they want to be paid extra
because they did the job you paid them to do? Makes no sense. They should be
happy to get enough to buy a cold one after work.
---------------
Alex

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>Servers make a little over $2/hr salary in most states... and asking if
>you want change can save a few minutes of time... if you don't.

True, but some ask the question even when they know the change adds up
to a ridiculously high tip amount.
---------------
Alex

 

[Ron Ruff]

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> True, but some ask the question even when they know the change adds up
> to a ridiculously high tip amount.

This may come as a surprise, but I doubt that most servers remember the
amount of your bill... nor know how much the stack of cash adds up too.
So... they don't have any idea how much the change will be til they go
back to the register and go through the process. I don't see anything
at all wrong with them asking.

BTW, I think tipping sucks... but in this country it has become the
main form of payment for a lot of work. In a restuarant, it's common
for the hostess, cashier, bussers, cooks... basically everybody makes
minimal wage and gets a share of the tips. The business could just pay
higher fixed salaries and increase their prices, but that isn't the way
it's done.

As for the fitter at a bike shop, I'd tell the owner what happened and
see if he thinks he should be pumping for tips... I bet the owner'd say
no.

 

[[email protected]]

On 18 May 2006 16:28:32 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>This may come as a surprise, but I doubt that most servers remember the
>amount of your bill... nor know how much the stack of cash adds up too.
>So... they don't have any idea how much the change will be til they go
>back to the register and go through the process. I don't see anything
>at all wrong with them asking.

[snip]

Dear Ron,

You may change your mind once you know what your waiter thinks:

www.waiterrant.com

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 04:22:11 -0700, HappyBiker wrote:

> I was recently sized for a custom bike - not a fun experience!
> However, during the fit, the sales person who was doing the fit
> mentioned casually that most people give him a large tip because they
> are so happy with his work. Is this a common thing - tipping the
> custom bike fit people (he's in sales, but does custom fitting pretty
> much full time). Has anyone else experienced this?

Whether it's common or not, hustling tips like that is incredibly
tacky.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 05:46:20 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> "No reward for faithful service", the guy is just doing his job. If you
> were having a custom suit made, you wouldn't tip the tailor.

Well, that depends. If he's independent, then no, but if he's an employee
at an upscale men's clothing store, then yes.

One does not usually tip the owner of a business, with a few exceptions,
like bartenders and hairdressers.

Matt O.

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 18 May 2006 19:09:02 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On 18 May 2006 16:28:32 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>This may come as a surprise, but I doubt that most servers remember the
>>amount of your bill... nor know how much the stack of cash adds up too.
>>So... they don't have any idea how much the change will be til they go
>>back to the register and go through the process. I don't see anything
>>at all wrong with them asking.
>
>[snip]
>
>Dear Ron,
>
>You may change your mind once you know what your waiter thinks:
>
>www.waiterrant.com
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

D'oh! I suppose I'd better not expect a tip, since the correct
url is:

www.waiterrant.net

CF

 

[HappyBiker]

I thought about going to go to your shop, sounds like I'd do much
better there! But CA is a long way from Massachusetts!

 

[G.T.]

"Michael Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 17 May 2006 18:59:51 -0700, [email protected]
> wrote:
>
> > I come from Australia, where work culture and trade unionism has meant
> > a (generally) liveable wage for (most) workers. Tipping is viewed as
> > offensive, and degrading to both people involved, as it indicates
> > servility.
>
> I'm Australian, and lived in the US for a year once. I felt that tipping
> was degrading for all concerned, especially when waitresses in bars
> would touch and flirt with us to try to push tips up (I asked one once,
> and she admitted it).
>
> I much prefer to live in a country where people are paid a fair wage
> for a fair day's work, and don't need to angle for arbitrary handouts
> from customers to survive.
>

OTOH why be limited to your fair wage? How about rewarding exemplary
service with a bonus? Not that my current employer gives bonuses, but past
employers have.

Greg

 

[Mark Hickey]

"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Michael Warner" <[email protected]> wrote

>> I much prefer to live in a country where people are paid a fair wage
>> for a fair day's work, and don't need to angle for arbitrary handouts
>> from customers to survive.
>
>OTOH why be limited to your fair wage? How about rewarding exemplary
>service with a bonus? Not that my current employer gives bonuses, but past
>employers have.

Gadzooks - could it be I agree with Greg? ;-)

The way I've always looked at it is that there are two choices when it
comes to paying foodservice waiters and waitresses...

1) Charge 15% more for your food (since that money DOES have to come
from somewhere, after all). Waiter and waitress now have no real
incentive to provide anything above barely adequate service, since
there's nothing in it for them. Many will anyway - but many won't.

2) Let a large portion of the waiter's / waitress' income be based on
the "pay for performance". It's reasonable to assume that they'll
then have much more incentive to get your food to you before it
reaches room temperature.

The thing that will bother some people about option number 2 is that
the better performers will make more than the slackers.

Oh well.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[Ron Ruff]

Mark Hickey wrote:
> The thing that will bother some people about option number 2 is that
> the better performers will make more than the slackers.

I don't think anyone is bothered by that... it is the hustling for tips
(prostitution) that is bothersome. In a decent place the slackers won't
even have jobs... at least not for long. The best performers would get
rewarded with better salaries and other perks... just like other
non-tip jobs.

BTW, Carl... I don't need to read a blog to know what waiters think. I
have personal (and recent) experience with that!

 

[[email protected]]

On 22 May 2006 20:40:43 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Mark Hickey wrote:
>> The thing that will bother some people about option number 2 is that
>> the better performers will make more than the slackers.
>
>I don't think anyone is bothered by that... it is the hustling for tips
>(prostitution) that is bothersome. In a decent place the slackers won't
>even have jobs... at least not for long. The best performers would get
>rewarded with better salaries and other perks... just like other
>non-tip jobs.
>
>BTW, Carl... I don't need to read a blog to know what waiters think. I
>have personal (and recent) experience with that!

Dear Ron,

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding.

You wrote:

>This may come as a surprise, but I doubt that most servers remember the
>amount of your bill... nor know how much the stack of cash adds up to.
>So... they don't have any idea how much the change will be til they go
>back to the register and go through the process. I don't see anything
>at all wrong with them asking.

I don't see anything wrong, either.

My point was that in my experience most servers do "remember the
amount of your bill" and have a very good "idea how much the stack of
cash adds up to." I think that http://waiterrant.net supports that
theory:

"Last night I had served forty customers. My sales average was $50 a
head. I made 20% in tips. You do the math."
http://waiterrant.net/?p=307

"I do my cash out. I averaged 20% in tips. I did well under the
circumstances."
http://waiterrant.net/?p=287

And so on. (Sadly, the search feature only covers the current month.)

I think that anyone who browses the archives of http://waiterrant.net
will have a good time, but may come away with a slightly different
feeling about how waiters view customers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ron Ruff]

[email protected] wrote:
> My point was that in my experience most servers do "remember the
> amount of your bill" and have a very good "idea how much the stack of
> cash adds up to." I think that http://waiterrant.net supports that
> theory:

Certainly they remember at the end of the night... after half an hour
of doing paperwork they know exactly how much they made. They don't
know at the time, though... at least I didn't.

There were a few nights when I had $2,000 in sales, but I did it the
hard way... instead of 40 x $50, it was more like 80 x $25... so it
wasn't that easy to keep track of everyone.

Waitors do tend to be very obsessed with tips... which is one reason
why I think tipping isn't a good idea.