TSB - Did I miss something?

[tomUK]

Thanks for helping me troubleshoot this guys. Here are some figures that may help?

Yesterday I did a ride of just over an hour. My Ave. Power was 152W. NP 178W. TSS 70.5 and IF of .81 (based on a FTP of 220W). Maybe the most telling part (not sure?) that my FTP is right is that my Ave. HR was 119BPM for the whole ride.

My PT is new and I've tested the accuracy of it using the method described at cptips.com. I also have zeroed the torque on my Joule computer.

A little about me... I'm 6ft, 147lbs and my blood work came back fine. My HCT is 47.5 and hemoglobin is smack in the middle of the suggested range. I've had the function of my heart tested and the only thing noted was my low resting HR (35bpm) but this was suggested as being caused by both exercise and genetics.

The only subject thing I can say is that a ride of 100 TSS leaves me feeling dead for the rest of the day. Therefore the idea of completing 4 of these a week fills me with dread -- not because I don't want to but because of how empty/fatigued I feel at the end of it. Also, I notice long days on the bike (100TSS) mean I don't sleep as well..

Any ideas? I'm happy to listen to anything! thanks, again.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Any ideas? I'm happy to listen to anything! ....

Yeah, something is funny here. I keep wondering about nutrition. Are you restricting your diet in any way, especially wrt carbs? Are you consciously refueling during the critical half hour window to jump start your glycogen resynthesis? Something isn't right if your FTP is accurate, your PM is accurate and an hour and a half at IF ~ .8 leaves you trashed and sleeping poorly.

TSS is scaled to the individual via FTP (assuming FTP is reasonably well estimated) so 100 TSS shouldn't be much different in terms of residual fatigue although of course CTL also plays into this, it'll be easier for a rider with a CTL of 100 to tolerate a workout that yields 100 TSS (right on their long term daily average) as opposed to a rider with a CTL of 30 (the ride is more than triple their long term daily average). Even so, 80 to 100 TSS for a run of the mill training ride shouldn't be as traumatic as you describe.

How do you feel after a two hour low Tempo (IF ~ 0.7) ride that yields approximately 100 TSS? Does that leave you wrecked and restless at night as well or is it when you bump up the intensity on shorter rides? Do your typical rides include a lot of hill sprints or short hard anaerobic efforts that could lead to excessive soreness and fatigue?

-Dave

 

[tomUK]

Yeah, something is funny here. I keep wondering about nutrition. Are you restricting your diet in any way, especially wrt carbs? Are you consciously refueling during the critical half hour window to jump start your glycogen resynthesis? Something isn't right if your FTP is accurate, your PM is accurate and an hour and a half at IF ~ .8 leaves you trashed and sleeping poorly.

TSS is scaled to the individual via FTP (assuming FTP is reasonably well estimated) so 100 TSS shouldn't be much different in terms of residual fatigue although of course CTL also plays into this, it'll be easier for a rider with a CTL of 100 to tolerate a workout that yields 100 TSS (right on their long term daily average) as opposed to a rider with a CTL of 30 (the ride is more than triple their long term daily average). Even so, 80 to 100 TSS for a run of the mill training ride shouldn't be as traumatic as you describe.

How do you feel after a two hour low Tempo (IF ~ 0.7) ride that yields approximately 100 TSS? Does that leave you wrecked and restless at night as well or is it when you bump up the intensity on shorter rides? Do your typical rides include a lot of hill sprints or short hard anaerobic efforts that could lead to excessive soreness and fatigue?

-Dave

I don't pay *too* much attention to refueling within the half hour window as I figure that a ride of 70TSS (about 600 calories) isn't that great and therefore doesn't need too much fuel. Would I be wrong to assume such?

Your question about low tempo is an interesting one. A two-hour ride at IF of 0.7 leaves me feeling a lot less trashed than one of the same TSS but higher IF (i.e. 0.8-0.9). I rarely sprint hard - on occasion I have just to see what my 5 sec wattage is (1300W) but that is - as I say - rare for me to do that.

I know Heart Rate is not of much use but based on what I was saying - 119bpm for a ride of 150W (ave) and 178 (np), would you say my FTP is in the right range? One thing I have noticed is that getting my heart rate up into the 140's-150's also is really hard. esp for long periods of time - in excess of 5 minutes.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I don't pay *too* much attention to refueling within the half hour window as I figure that a ride of 70TSS (about 600 calories) isn't that great and therefore doesn't need too much fuel. Would I be wrong to assume such?...

While 600 Calories isn't a huge number, you still want to start each ride with ample glycogen stores and since you realistically can't replace more than 200-300 Calories worth of glycogen during the critical half hour there is no harm and very likely some good based on what you've described. In general, paying attention to refueling both in the critical half hour and throughout the day is probably the biggest thing for folks who feel back to back training days is out of the question. Your weight is quite low for your height so it does beg the question of whether you're refueling adequately for sustained training. Try paying attention to refueling during your rides and throughout the day and see how you feel.

..I know Heart Rate is not of much use but based on what I was saying - 119bpm for a ride of 150W (ave) and 178 (np), would you say my FTP is in the right range? One thing I have noticed is that getting my heart rate up into the 140's-150's also is really hard. esp for long periods of time - in excess of 5 minutes.

Well as you say, HR isn't very useful for comparison between folks and I wouldn't try to estimate FTP by extrapolating from a comfortable HR, way too much variation between individuals and training histories to expect much from that approach. But having said that, 119 seems really low for a Tempo ride and the inability to sustain 140s for more than a few minutes seems unusual but again HR varies a lot between individuals so I wouldn't focus on that alone unless you know that you typically sustain much higher HR and recently it's become more difficult. If that's the case then again it would point to issues with recovery or nutrition.

From what you described, I'd probably take a week or two where I skipped the group rides and all races and just rode by myself at Tempo, Endurance and if I had a good day Threshold pace to rebuild some training base and to find my own best pacing. I'd also pay close attention to nutrition and weight to make sure I wasn't trying to train without enough fuels on board.

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

While 600 Calories isn't a huge number, you still want to start each ride with ample glycogen stores and since you realistically can't replace more than 200-300 Calories worth of glycogen during the critical half hour there is no harm and very likely some good based on what you've described. In general, paying attention to refueling both in the critical half hour and throughout the day is probably the biggest thing for folks who feel back to back training days is out of the question. Your weight is quite low for your height so it does beg the question of whether you're refueling adequately for sustained training. Try paying attention to refueling during your rides and throughout the day and see how you feel.

-Dave

I thought the rule was 200 to 300 Kcals whilst on the bike and performing a fairly hard to race pace effort. A fine point between getting in all you can without sufferring gastric distress. Off the bike you can chug down much more than that and not end up spraying the toilet walls brown... or turning yourself into a human vuvuzela. Buuuuurp.

Even if the optimum period of 30 to 45 minutes after exercise is missed, a regular ~2,000KCals diet should provide more than enough for an hour long effort and everything else that goes on during the day. If you're pushing that out to a couple of hours on the bike and work a physical job then that likely isn't going to be enough.

This begs the question (for TomUK), if you keep an honest log of everything you eat and drink, how many calories to you consume daily?

 

[tomUK]

While 600 Calories isn't a huge number, you still want to start each ride with ample glycogen stores and since you realistically can't replace more than 200-300 Calories worth of glycogen during the critical half hour there is no harm and very likely some good based on what you've described. In general, paying attention to refueling both in the critical half hour and throughout the day is probably the biggest thing for folks who feel back to back training days is out of the question. Your weight is quite low for your height so it does beg the question of whether you're refueling adequately for sustained training. Try paying attention to refueling during your rides and throughout the day and see how you feel.

Well as you say, HR isn't very useful for comparison between folks and I wouldn't try to estimate FTP by extrapolating from a comfortable HR, way too much variation between individuals and training histories to expect much from that approach. But having said that, 119 seems really low for a Tempo ride and the inability to sustain 140s for more than a few minutes seems unusual but again HR varies a lot between individuals so I wouldn't focus on that alone unless you know that you typically sustain much higher HR and recently it's become more difficult. If that's the case then again it would point to issues with recovery or nutrition.

From what you described, I'd probably take a week or two where I skipped the group rides and all races and just rode by myself at Tempo, Endurance and if I had a good day Threshold pace to rebuild some training base and to find my own best pacing. I'd also pay close attention to nutrition and weight to make sure I wasn't trying to train without enough fuels on board.

-Dave

Thank you again for taking the time to reply.

I will pay more attention to post-ride nutrition. From what I understood from what you wrote it is best to eat in the region of 300 calories within the first 30 minutes after you get off the bike. I assume mostly carbs with a little protein?

Somewhat irrelevant; however, I've noted that Contador (for example) has a bmi of 19.5 and mine is 20.5. Could I therefore be underweight? I don't think so, but a question worth asking.

I guess it just seems strange to me that I used to have a FTP of 270 and now it's barely 220. The only one major think I feel has changed is that I no long drink caffeine.

bizarre...?

 

[tomUK]

This begs the question (for TomUK), if you keep an honest log of everything you eat and drink, how many calories to you consume daily?

Good question, well I am not losing weight so I figure it is around the 2000-2500 mark. Hard to judge as I don't measure everything. however, I know that I do *tend* to eat probably 1/2 of those calories in the evening meal plus snacking till bed time. Maybe I'm eating the wrong type of foods? I try to go for carbs and veggies and little sugar (of course that doesn't ALWAYS work), plus there is always the odd beer.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I thought the rule was 200 to 300 Kcals whilst on the bike and performing a fairly hard to race pace effort. ... Off the bike you can chug down much more than that ...

Yes, but the amount constructively stored as glycogen is bounded by glycogen resythesis rates.

Eat more than about 200-300 Calories immediately after exercise and the portion that doesn't get stored as glycogen in the liver or muscles gets stored as fat. Not really a problem if you're just managing weight and maintain the overall balance you're after throughout the entire day but don't think big meals post ride necessarily mean you'll replenish your glycogen stores more rapidly.

-Dave

[edit] Here's a pretty good summary of glycogen resynthesis and appropriate amounts: http://www.coachr.org/carbohydrates_and_the_distance_runner.htm

 

[swampy1970]

Good question, well I am not losing weight so I figure it is around the 2000-2500 mark. Hard to judge as I don't measure everything. however, I know that I do *tend* to eat probably 1/2 of those calories in the evening meal plus snacking till bed time. Maybe I'm eating the wrong type of foods? I try to go for carbs and veggies and little sugar (of course that doesn't ALWAYS work), plus there is always the odd beer.

"figuring" isn't the way to do it - if you're spending this much time wondering why there's "no go" when you're on the bike then a trip to the dollar store for a tiny note pad and pencil to keep in your pocket so you can spend 10 seconds scribbling down everything that you eat and drink throughout the day could be well worth your time.

I've been through that exercise a couple of times - it's amazing what you can find out. It is a royal pain in the as$ at first though.

Carbs are generally sugars (and starches/cellulose). So your carbs and sugars could well be sugars and sugars.

Beer isn't too bad as long as you only have one or two and don't have any food with it...

 

[swampy1970]

Yes, but the amount constructively stored as glycogen is bounded by glycogen resythesis rates.

Eat more than about 200-300 Calories immediately after exercise and the portion that doesn't get stored as glycogen in the liver or muscles gets stored as fat. Not really a problem if you're just managing weight and maintain the overall balance you're after throughout the entire day but don't think big meals post ride necessarily mean you'll replenish your glycogen stores more rapidly.

-Dave

[edit] Here's a pretty good summary of glycogen resynthesis and appropriate amounts: Carbohydrates and The Distance Runner

Maybe you should try adding a wee bit of caffiene to the fire...

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Maybe you should try adding a wee bit of caffiene to the fire...

You can be certain I do, but that doesn't change the fact that excess consumption slows gastric emptying rates, insulation production and ultimately glycogen resynthesis rates and the excess calories ingested have to go somewhere so if not stored as glycogen or used to rebuild muscles they end up as fat. Bottom line, the classic pig out after a big ride isn't the best approach even if it is fun.

But I'm with you, caffeine doesn't hurt as at least one study last year demonstrated, but truthfully I'd be sucking down the coffee either way as I'm pretty much addicted....

-Dave

 

[tomUK]

You can be certain I do, but that doesn't change the fact that excess consumption slows gastric emptying rates, insulation production and ultimately glycogen resynthesis rates and the excess calories ingested have to go somewhere so if not stored as glycogen or used to rebuild muscles they end up as fat. Bottom line, the classic pig out after a big ride isn't the best approach even if it is fun.

But I'm with you, caffeine doesn't hurt as at least one study last year demonstrated, but truthfully I'd be sucking down the coffee either way as I'm pretty much addicted....

-Dave

Yeah, I know the fix. I gave up the stuff about a year ago, notice i sleep beer without it. Now, ask me to give up the beer and I might fight a little more about it!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... notice i sleep beer without it....

Now that's a Freudian slip if I've ever seen one...

 

[tomUK]

Now that's a Freudian slip if I've ever seen one...

What can I say? I think, sleep and drink beer. When i'm not riding....

 

[swampy1970]

Yeah, I know the fix. I gave up the stuff about a year ago, notice i sleep beer without it. Now, ask me to give up the beer and I might fight a little more about it!

It's funny, when I used to race pretty seriously back in the UK I'd still down gallons of ale. When I moved to the US, the microbrews were my downfall... I'd go through 12 packs like it was nothing... But when presented with a challenge to get myself in shape real quick, I had no problems not drinking the stuff - infact it got to the point where I'd help out the neighbors and they'd give me a 6 pack and I'd be thinking "where do I store this until after the event in 4 months?"

It's all about goals and desire to make those goals happen.

I notice that it does significantly effect breathing on the bike, similar to getting several nights of really bad sleep. It may be something in the beer... It may be that I'm getting a really bad nights sleep if I drink beer late at night but in general performance suffers more if I drink the golden brew than if I'd drank a smaller quantity of vodka, for example... YMMV.

 

[swampy1970]

Now that's a Freudian slip if I've ever seen one...

I wonder if Freud ever slipped in a 'pavement pizza' during a night out at a local tavern?