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spotlight on Horner

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crit pro
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  1. Big chance for Horner (not unlike Worlds last year)

    500,000 spectators this Sunday

    Defending Champ

    Star-studded field (minus BJ)

    Local team Webcor poised to make some news with two of the three SFGP
    winners on their start list.

    $100,000 in salary 2002 with Prime Alliance,Signed a two year deal
    with Saturn for $130,000/yr in salary 2003.

    And you still wonder why he isn't in the "Show". It's not hard to see
    why. FDJ paid him $37,000+ in '97.

    From: [email hidden] ([email hidden])
    Subject: Chris Horner article in S.D. Union-Tribune
    Date: 1997/01/30

    From the San Diego Union Tribune:

    Wheels of fortune
    Lemon Grove cyclist heads for ride of his life, with French team

    Chris Jenkins STAFF WRITER

    29-Jan-1997 Wednesday

    Just an hour earlier, the assistant at Chris Horner's dentist's office
    was
    left incredulous. Not just because it'd been so long since Horner's
    last
    cleaning, either.

    "Six years," said Horner, teeth sparkling. "She looked at me like I
    was
    evil."

    Horner needed the dental work done soon, for he was flying to Europe
    in a
    few days. Vacation, she presumed. Business, he said. The bicycle
    business.

    While he's over there, though, Horner does plan on taking all the
    European
    tours. Spain. Italy. Switzerland. Eventually, he hopes, even the Tour
    de
    France.

    Horner departed last week for Paris, where he was to be introduced in
    a
    news conference with La Francaise des Jeux, the No. 3-ranked
    professional
    cycling team in the world. He's the lone American on an 18-member
    cycling
    squad representing a country, France, that's still convinced Greg
    LeMond
    was really a Frenchman with a bad accent.

    "I'll probably be the last one introduced," said Horner. "I just hope
    nobody asks me any questions."

    Given cycling's semi-secret status on this side of the Atlantic, some
    introductions also are probably in order here, even in Horner's
    hometown.
    He's a resident of Lemon Grove, a Serra High graduate who hadn't
    played
    sports since retiring from wrestling in eighth grade.

    With strawberry-blond hair pulled back into a ponytail, a lightly
    freckled
    face and high-beam smile, Horner indeed is so American-looking they'll
    pick him out of any peloton.

    That Horner could be paid for riding a bike was something he had a
    hard
    time explaining to the dubious dental assistant. Nothing new there. In
    a
    country consumed with football, basketball and baseball, Horner can't
    possibly explain to most Americans how big his sport is in Europe.

    But even with a total comprehension of international cycling -- a
    glamorous, yet grueling, cutthroat realm -- it is almost beyond belief
    that Horner is already riding among its best cyclists.

    "Going over, I'm only worried about two things," he said. "One's the
    weather, which has been brutal in France this winter. The other's the
    fact
    that I don't speak French."

    There wasn't much call for another language out on the U.S. cycling
    circuit, where Horner has been a regular for several years, riding for
    a
    low-budget team in a jam-packed van, sleeping on the road or on floors
    in
    overpopulated motel rooms, essentially pedaling for his supper and his
    pleasure.

    A year ago, that was still Horner's lifestyle, one he'd committed
    himself
    to since giving up a longtime job at a Kearny Mesa bicycle shop. Free
    to
    do nothing but ride and strength-train and ride some more -- upward of
    600
    miles a week around San Diego County -- Horner turned 1996 into a boom
    year.

    First he won a stage of the prestigious Tour DuPont, then the opening
    stage of the U.S. Olympic Trials. Only politics, apparently, kept him
    from
    riding for the United States in Atlanta.

    "All I know is that my phone started ringing off the hook (after the
    Trials)," said Horner, "and some man speaking broken English was
    coming up
    to me at a race in Wisconsin."

    The man was Alain Galopin, manager of La Francaise des Jeux, a team
    subsidized by the French national lottery.

    "He asked me if I wanted to race in France with a team with a $7
    million
    budget," said Horner. "Tough question, huh? I was, like, yeah!"

    All he'd ever ridden for before was expenses, and he'd get that from
    La
    Francaise as well, but also an apartment in Paris and a two-year
    contract
    with an annual salary of roughly $37,000, U.S.

    "One hundred seventy-four thousand French francs," Horner said,
    flashing a
    boyish grin. "It sounds like more that way."

    For starters, Horner merely was expected to begin training in the
    south of
    France. Although it's highly unlikely he'd be chosen for this year's
    Tour
    de France, since only nine riders can represent a team, Horner
    expected to
    be racing in Europe's other major stage races, most notably the Tours
    of
    Spain, Italy and Switzerland.

    Primarily, the team leaders want to bring Horner along slowly. He's
    been
    told to use this year to get familiar with race strategies and fellow
    riders.

    "He proved capable of competing with the best of the U.S.," said Frank
    Stanley, an administrator with USA Cycling. "Where he's going now is
    the
    next step. You can probably expect him to vanish for a while, which
    isn't
    unusual, and you never know when he might pop up again."

    "He is going to get hammered at first," said Sean Petty, managing
    director
    of U.S. Pro, the professional arm of USA Cycling. "But he's a tough
    kid.
    And he is, if anything, adaptable."

    At that level of cycling, teams are geared, literally, to their best
    riders. Teammates conspire, via attacks and counterattacks and drafts,
    to
    have their top man at the front at the finish. Horner, you'd expect,
    would
    be one of La Francaise des Jeux' pawns. Not so fast.

    "If I do well, then I'll probably be a sacrificial lamb," said Horner.
    "If
    I win a big race, though, my sacrificial-lamb days are over."

    His personal hope is to convince La Francaise des Jeux's management to
    let
    him return to the States for key races, continuing to make a name for
    himself while giving his team a U.S. identity.

    "I think it's good for them to have an American," said Horner,
    "because if
    he does well, we'll get a lot of press. I think they think I have that
    kind of potential."

    Potential that few could see when Horner, just out of Serra High, was
    working construction from sunup to sundown, seven days a week. Cycling
    was
    just his favorite mode of transportation, a way of getting from
    Tierrasanta to Point Loma, where he'd ride to watch his stepfather
    bowling
    on the naval base.

    His stepdad, no longer married to Horner's mother, drove 17-year-old
    Chris
    to his first race in Mission Viejo.

    "I took off with one lap to go," said Horner. "I thought I had it won,
    without a doubt. I finished last. It happens every time. Somebody goes
    off
    on his own. That time, it was me. One minute I'm thinking I'm the best
    rider out there, and then I'm getting dropped (left behind) by
    everybody.

    "It was demoralizing. I was like, what happened? It's not that I
    wasn't
    strong enough. I wasn't smart enough."

    A lesson learned? Well, for a while.

    Horner himself volunteered the story about his first Olympic Trials,
    in
    1992 at Altoona, Pa. Once again, he jumped out on the breakaway,
    flying
    solo in front of everybody for at least 60 miles.

    "This kid took off," said Stanley, "and nobody knew who the heck he
    was."

    There was no time for getting acquainted, either, when Horner started
    getting passed as if he were on training wheels.

    "The break (of 10 riders) caught up to me and spit me out the back,"
    said
    Horner. "Then the pack caught me, and I got spit out the back of that,
    too. I wasn't very smart there, either."

    Horner's freckles suddenly disappeared, camouflaged by the red-faced
    glow
    of embarrassment.

    "That's the thing about intelligence -- it comes in and goes out,"
    Horner
    said. "Even now, you do stupid stuff."

    In his second-ever race, Horner crashed at the University of San Diego
    Grand Prix, but it also was at USD that he claimed his first victory
    in
    '91, beating a field that included future world champion Lance
    Armstrong.
    By '95, Horner was a regular among top-20 finishers at major races
    across
    the nation, but even the difference between top 10 and first place is
    immense in cycling.

    Horner crossed that bridge, ironically, when he began to step up
    training
    off his bike. Just under 5-foot-11 and only 145 pounds, Horner
    actually
    considers himself "on the heavy side" for his sport, but half his body
    weight must be lungs and heart. In the vernacular, he's got a "big
    engine."

    What Galopin found so appealing about Horner, in fact, was his
    tendency to
    grow stronger when racing day after day. Few Americans, too, have
    Horner's
    ability to attack from the very start of a race and remain a
    contender.

    At the Tour DuPont, the highest-rated race on American roads, Horner
    had
    more steam left than anybody in winning the 10th of 12 stages, run on
    a
    murderously hot and windy day in late May in the rolling hills of the
    Carolinas. Which Carolina, he wasn't sure.

    "The finish line was in Greenville (S.C.)," he said. "Most of the
    time, in
    races like that, you don't even know what state you're in. Ride and
    rest,
    ride and rest, and that's all. Just put your bags outside your door
    and go
    to sleep."

    The victory elevated Horner from 23rd to 22nd overall, but it was a
    mighty
    boost to his confidence. He'd beaten cyclists such as Armstrong and
    Swiss

  2. I hope Horner gets some support at worlds this year. Last year he
    clearly was the strongest american and was obviously told to attack
    with 2 to go instead of waiting until a bit later. He then still had
    the gas to pull like crazy to set up fred and george.

    We will see this weekend if he has the super forn he had last year.

    [email hidden] (crit pro) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Big chance for Horner (not unlike Worlds last year)

    500,000 spectators this Sunday

    Defending Champ

    Star-studded field (minus BJ)

    Local team Webcor poised to make some news with two of the three SFGP
    winners on their start list.

    $100,000 in salary 2002 with Prime Alliance,Signed a two year deal
    with Saturn for $130,000/yr in salary 2003.

    And you still wonder why he isn't in the "Show". It's not hard to see
    why. FDJ paid him $37,000+ in '97.

    From: [email hidden] ([email hidden])
    Subject: Chris Horner article in S.D. Union-Tribune
    Date: 1997/01/30

    From the San Diego Union Tribune:

    Wheels of fortune
    Lemon Grove cyclist heads for ride of his life, with French team

    Chris Jenkins STAFF WRITER

    29-Jan-1997 Wednesday

    Just an hour earlier, the assistant at Chris Horner's dentist's office
    was
    left incredulous. Not just because it'd been so long since Horner's
    last
    cleaning, either.

    "Six years," said Horner, teeth sparkling. "She looked at me like I
    was
    evil."

    Horner needed the dental work done soon, for he was flying to Europe
    in a
    few days. Vacation, she presumed. Business, he said. The bicycle
    business.

    While he's over there, though, Horner does plan on taking all the
    European
    tours. Spain. Italy. Switzerland. Eventually, he hopes, even the Tour
    de
    France.

    Horner departed last week for Paris, where he was to be introduced in
    a
    news conference with La Francaise des Jeux, the No. 3-ranked
    professional
    cycling team in the world. He's the lone American on an 18-member
    cycling
    squad representing a country, France, that's still convinced Greg
    LeMond
    was really a Frenchman with a bad accent.

    "I'll probably be the last one introduced," said Horner. "I just hope
    nobody asks me any questions."

    Given cycling's semi-secret status on this side of the Atlantic, some
    introductions also are probably in order here, even in Horner's
    hometown.
    He's a resident of Lemon Grove, a Serra High graduate who hadn't
    played
    sports since retiring from wrestling in eighth grade.

    With strawberry-blond hair pulled back into a ponytail, a lightly
    freckled
    face and high-beam smile, Horner indeed is so American-looking they'll
    pick him out of any peloton.

    That Horner could be paid for riding a bike was something he had a
    hard
    time explaining to the dubious dental assistant. Nothing new there. In
    a
    country consumed with football, basketball and baseball, Horner can't
    possibly explain to most Americans how big his sport is in Europe.

    But even with a total comprehension of international cycling -- a
    glamorous, yet grueling, cutthroat realm -- it is almost beyond belief
    that Horner is already riding among its best cyclists.

    "Going over, I'm only worried about two things," he said. "One's the
    weather, which has been brutal in France this winter. The other's the
    fact
    that I don't speak French."

    There wasn't much call for another language out on the U.S. cycling
    circuit, where Horner has been a regular for several years, riding for
    a
    low-budget team in a jam-packed van, sleeping on the road or on floors
    in
    overpopulated motel rooms, essentially pedaling for his supper and his
    pleasure.

    A year ago, that was still Horner's lifestyle, one he'd committed
    himself
    to since giving up a longtime job at a Kearny Mesa bicycle shop. Free
    to
    do nothing but ride and strength-train and ride some more -- upward of
    600
    miles a week around San Diego County -- Horner turned 1996 into a boom
    year.

    First he won a stage of the prestigious Tour DuPont, then the opening
    stage of the U.S. Olympic Trials. Only politics, apparently, kept him
    from
    riding for the United States in Atlanta.

    "All I know is that my phone started ringing off the hook (after the
    Trials)," said Horner, "and some man speaking broken English was
    coming up
    to me at a race in Wisconsin."

    The man was Alain Galopin, manager of La Francaise des Jeux, a team
    subsidized by the French national lottery.

    "He asked me if I wanted to race in France with a team with a $7
    million
    budget," said Horner. "Tough question, huh? I was, like, yeah!"

    All he'd ever ridden for before was expenses, and he'd get that from
    La
    Francaise as well, but also an apartment in Paris and a two-year
    contract
    with an annual salary of roughly $37,000, U.S.

    "One hundred seventy-four thousand French francs," Horner said,
    flashing a
    boyish grin. "It sounds like more that way."

    For starters, Horner merely was expected to begin training in the
    south of
    France. Although it's highly unlikely he'd be chosen for this year's
    Tour
    de France, since only nine riders can represent a team, Horner
    expected to
    be racing in Europe's other major stage races, most notably the Tours
    of
    Spain, Italy and Switzerland.

    Primarily, the team leaders want to bring Horner along slowly. He's
    been
    told to use this year to get familiar with race strategies and fellow
    riders.

    "He proved capable of competing with the best of the U.S.," said Frank
    Stanley, an administrator with USA Cycling. "Where he's going now is
    the
    next step. You can probably expect him to vanish for a while, which
    isn't
    unusual, and you never know when he might pop up again."

    "He is going to get hammered at first," said Sean Petty, managing
    director
    of U.S. Pro, the professional arm of USA Cycling. "But he's a tough
    kid.
    And he is, if anything, adaptable."

    At that level of cycling, teams are geared, literally, to their best
    riders. Teammates conspire, via attacks and counterattacks and drafts,
    to
    have their top man at the front at the finish. Horner, you'd expect,
    would
    be one of La Francaise des Jeux' pawns. Not so fast.

    "If I do well, then I'll probably be a sacrificial lamb," said Horner.
    "If
    I win a big race, though, my sacrificial-lamb days are over."

    His personal hope is to convince La Francaise des Jeux's management to
    let
    him return to the States for key races, continuing to make a name for
    himself while giving his team a U.S. identity.

    "I think it's good for them to have an American," said Horner,
    "because if
    he does well, we'll get a lot of press. I think they think I have that
    kind of potential."

    Potential that few could see when Horner, just out of Serra High, was
    working construction from sunup to sundown, seven days a week. Cycling
    was
    just his favorite mode of transportation, a way of getting from
    Tierrasanta to Point Loma, where he'd ride to watch his stepfather
    bowling
    on the naval base.

    His stepdad, no longer married to Horner's mother, drove 17-year-old
    Chris
    to his first race in Mission Viejo.

    "I took off with one lap to go," said Horner. "I thought I had it won,
    without a doubt. I finished last. It happens every time. Somebody goes
    off
    on his own. That time, it was me. One minute I'm thinking I'm the best
    rider out there, and then I'm getting dropped (left behind) by
    everybody.

    "It was demoralizing. I was like, what happened? It's not that I
    wasn't
    strong enough. I wasn't smart enough."

    A lesson learned? Well, for a while.

    Horner himself volunteered the story about his first Olympic Trials,
    in
    1992 at Altoona, Pa. Once again, he jumped out on the breakaway,
    flying
    solo in front of everybody for at least 60 miles.

    "This kid took off," said Stanley, "and nobody knew who the heck he
    was."

    There was no time for getting acquainted, either, when Horner started
    getting passed as if he were on training wheels.

    "The break (of 10 riders) caught up to me and spit me out the back,"
    said
    Horner. "Then the pack caught me, and I got spit out the back of that,
    too. I wasn't very smart there, either."

    Horner's freckles suddenly disappeared, camouflaged by the red-faced
    glow
    of embarrassment.

    "That's the thing about intelligence -- it comes in and goes out,"
    Horner
    said. "Even now, you do stupid stuff."

    In his second-ever race, Horner crashed at the University of San Diego
    Grand Prix, but it also was at USD that he claimed his first victory
    in
    '91, beating a field that included future world champion Lance
    Armstrong.
    By '95, Horner was a regular among top-20 finishers at major races
    across
    the nation, but even the difference between top 10 and first place is
    immense in cycling.

    Horner crossed that bridge, ironically, when he began to step up
    training
    off his bike. Just under 5-foot-11 and only 145 pounds, Horner
    actually
    considers himself "on the heavy side" for his sport, but half his body
    weight must be lungs and heart. In the vernacular, he's got a "big
    engine."

  3. [email hidden] (crit pro) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Big chance for Horner (not unlike Worlds last year)

    500,000 spectators this Sunday

    Defending Champ

    Star-studded field (minus BJ)

    Local team Webcor poised to make some news with two of the three SFGP
    winners on their start list.

    $100,000 in salary 2002 with Prime Alliance,Signed a two year deal
    with Saturn for $130,000/yr in salary 2003.

    And you still wonder why he isn't in the "Show". It's not hard to see
    why. FDJ paid him $37,000+ in '97.

    Where did you get those domestic salaries? Your numbers sure sound
    high...even for THE top guy. I'd bet those wages were really a good
    chunk less.

    Gees, even if you are in the ball-park, and he is the top wage-earner
    in the U.S., why do so many of these guys take it so seriously then?
    Ya know, more than just a short-timer's hobbie? Why do they take
    dope, the risks, and spend all that time on the road away from family
    to make $20k or less (gees..or even $100k)? Laughable!

    Seems like there some guys who do take the sport in the light it
    should be taken...and have fun with it without all the bad stuff. Ya
    know, as a short-term hobbie (being a pro that is) while keeping it
    all in perspective.

    To match what I posted elsewhere, do you think Horner would join
    Hamilton, Danielson, and Armstrong in posting scanned blood-parameter
    tests since childhood along with some SRM files to help dispel all the
    doping rumours? Now that kind of message from these guys might
    actually mean something in regards to this topic.

  4. "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    To match what I posted elsewhere, do you think Horner would join
    Hamilton, Danielson, and Armstrong in posting scanned blood-parameter
    tests since childhood along with some SRM files to help dispel all the
    doping rumours? Now that kind of message from these guys might
    actually mean something in regards to this topic.


    I would bet than none of these guys have what you're asking for. A full
    blood workup would only be performed if there was serious illness of some
    kind. The only childhood medical records these guys likely have are
    vaccination dates, a chickenpox diagnosis and the occassional throat
    infection. Or do you think they would manufacture the data like Bush's
    service records?

  5. 1. Horner will not win the SFGP.

    2. It will be someone else's fault.

    3. Just ask him.

  6. "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    To match what I posted elsewhere, do you think Horner would join
    Hamilton, Danielson, and Armstrong in posting scanned blood-parameter
    tests since childhood along with some SRM files to help dispel all the
    doping rumours? Now that kind of message from these guys might
    actually mean something in regards to this topic.


    I would bet than none of these guys have what you're asking for. A full
    blood workup would only be performed if there was serious illness of some
    kind. The only childhood medical records these guys likely have are
    vaccination dates, a chickenpox diagnosis and the occassional throat
    infection. Or do you think they would manufacture the data like Bush's
    service records?

    I'd settle for transparent monthly blood checks carried out and
    published by a third party (CBC tests are about $30 each) in addition
    to the vampire numbers at the Tour etc. That would clear up a lot of
    speculation and the behind the scenes discussions. Heck, if I was one
    of those riders, I'd volunteer to publish that info via a third party
    and silence many of the skeptics. I sure wish they at least checked
    hct and hgb at the Olympics (or at San Fran).

    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.

    Anybody else think this would help clear things up?

    CRIT PRO: Where did you get those salary numbers?

    My money in on Horner for tomorrow...I trust he is fully prepared to
    kill everyone once again...and yea, if he does lose, it'll probably be
    someone else's fault!

  7. L. Seer said:


    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.


    Maybe the pros just don't care what you think.

  8. L. Seer said:


    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.


    Maybe the pros just don't care what you think.

  9. "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I'd settle for transparent monthly blood checks carried out and
    published by a third party (CBC tests are about $30 each) in addition
    to the vampire numbers at the Tour etc. That would clear up a lot of
    speculation and the behind the scenes discussions. Heck, if I was one
    of those riders, I'd volunteer to publish that info via a third party
    and silence many of the skeptics. I sure wish they at least checked
    hct and hgb at the Olympics (or at San Fran).

    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.

    Anybody else think this would help clear things up?

    I think it would clear things up, but it would also intrude deeper into an
    individual's privacy. Ideally, a third party could/would manage testing and
    results privately and only make information public if and when an individual
    has tested positive and is subjected to penalties (IMO, time, fine, and
    relinquishing of any titles and/or prize money earned since the infraction).

    However, it has been shown repeatedly that the current and past third
    parties (those involved with drug testing) do not have an especially
    superior track record of confidentiality and due process than the testing
    records of athletes subjected to drug testing.

  10. "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    L. Seer said:


    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.


    Maybe the pros just don't care what you think.

    That's a bold statement! Ha!

    Well, if they care about proving the current doping accusations wrong,
    then maybe they'd step to the plate with more than [censored] like "I've
    never tested positive" and the like. Comical. Everyone always wants
    to talk evidence, why not something from the other side given the
    notably ineffective testing?

    That might be too much to ask given pro cycling's track record...

  11. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I'd settle for transparent monthly blood checks carried out and
    published by a third party (CBC tests are about $30 each) in addition
    to the vampire numbers at the Tour etc. That would clear up a lot of
    speculation and the behind the scenes discussions. Heck, if I was one
    of those riders, I'd volunteer to publish that info via a third party
    and silence many of the skeptics. I sure wish they at least checked
    hct and hgb at the Olympics (or at San Fran).

    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.

    Anybody else think this would help clear things up?

    I think it would clear things up, but it would also intrude deeper into an
    individual's privacy. Ideally, a third party could/would manage testing and
    results privately and only make information public if and when an individual
    has tested positive and is subjected to penalties (IMO, time, fine, and
    relinquishing of any titles and/or prize money earned since the infraction).

    Well...there is certainly progress with the new hematological passport
    discussion. I don't buy the privacy thing. A person's hct and hgb
    levels on a monthly basis aren't nearly as intrusive as the stuff many
    people have to provide to apply for any old job...which often has
    nothing to do with the execution of their employment.

    Quoted message said:

    However, it has been shown repeatedly that the current and past third
    parties (those involved with drug testing) do not have an especially
    superior track record of confidentiality and due process than the testing
    records of athletes subjected to drug testing.

    That is why I suggested public transparency on this.

  12. "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I think it would clear things up, but it would also intrude deeper into


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    individual's privacy. Ideally, a third party could/would manage testing


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    results privately and only make information public if and when an


    individual

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    has tested positive and is subjected to penalties (IMO, time, fine, and
    relinquishing of any titles and/or prize money earned since the


    infraction).

    Quoted message said:


    Well...there is certainly progress with the new hematological passport
    discussion. I don't buy the privacy thing. A person's hct and hgb
    levels on a monthly basis aren't nearly as intrusive as the stuff many
    people have to provide to apply for any old job...which often has
    nothing to do with the execution of their employment.

    As I said, I think if a legitimate, responsible, and unbiased third party
    can be found that is also immune to pressures of influence, that would be an
    ideal situation.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    However, it has been shown repeatedly that the current and past third
    parties (those involved with drug testing) do not have an especially
    superior track record of confidentiality and due process than the


    testing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    records of athletes subjected to drug testing.

    That is why I suggested public transparency on this.

    That is neither the rider's fault nor problem to solve.

    Among other issues would be the potential use of published blood records as
    a source of strategic information.

  13. Dumbass: If you read CritPro's article, he gets his salary info from
    an article published in the San Diego Union.

    Either Crit Pro has a total (dangerous) hard-on for Chris Horner, or
    he hails from San Diego. I can't imagine anyone living elsewhere and
    seeking out that paper's content.

    [email hidden] (L. Seer) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    To match what I posted elsewhere, do you think Horner would join
    Hamilton, Danielson, and Armstrong in posting scanned blood-parameter
    tests since childhood along with some SRM files to help dispel all the
    doping rumours? Now that kind of message from these guys might
    actually mean something in regards to this topic.


    I would bet than none of these guys have what you're asking for. A full
    blood workup would only be performed if there was serious illness of some
    kind. The only childhood medical records these guys likely have are
    vaccination dates, a chickenpox diagnosis and the occassional throat
    infection. Or do you think they would manufacture the data like Bush's
    service records?

    I'd settle for transparent monthly blood checks carried out and
    published by a third party (CBC tests are about $30 each) in addition
    to the vampire numbers at the Tour etc. That would clear up a lot of
    speculation and the behind the scenes discussions. Heck, if I was one
    of those riders, I'd volunteer to publish that info via a third party
    and silence many of the skeptics. I sure wish they at least checked
    hct and hgb at the Olympics (or at San Fran).

    Of course...these guys may have something to hide...so I certainly
    won't hold my breath for some revelation. I'm surprised nobody has
    challenged the pro guys to do something like this.

    Anybody else think this would help clear things up?

    CRIT PRO: Where did you get those salary numbers?

    My money in on Horner for tomorrow...I trust he is fully prepared to
    kill everyone once again...and yea, if he does lose, it'll probably be
    someone else's fault!

  14. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I think it would clear things up, but it would also intrude deeper into


    an

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    individual's privacy. Ideally, a third party could/would manage testing


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    results privately and only make information public if and when an


    individual

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    has tested positive and is subjected to penalties (IMO, time, fine, and
    relinquishing of any titles and/or prize money earned since the


    infraction).

    Quoted message said:


    Well...there is certainly progress with the new hematological passport
    discussion. I don't buy the privacy thing. A person's hct and hgb
    levels on a monthly basis aren't nearly as intrusive as the stuff many
    people have to provide to apply for any old job...which often has
    nothing to do with the execution of their employment.

    As I said, I think if a legitimate, responsible, and unbiased third party
    can be found that is also immune to pressures of influence, that would be an
    ideal situation.

    A perfect utopia isn't necessary...just something with transparency
    and accountability. Our lives are filled with "unbiased" third-party
    entities which we entrust with much more important issues than
    tracking hct and hgb in endurance athletes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    However, it has been shown repeatedly that the current and past third
    parties (those involved with drug testing) do not have an especially
    superior track record of confidentiality and due process than the


    testing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    records of athletes subjected to drug testing.

    That is why I suggested public transparency on this.

    That is neither the rider's fault nor problem to solve.

    Among other issues would be the potential use of published blood records as
    a source of strategic information.

    Who is at fault? Who should solve the problem? Isn't it the riders
    who are suppossedly falsely accused or choose/extorted/cohersed to use
    product if they want to be successful in the current arena? I think
    the riders should play a bigger role than they currently do. They are
    all so PC on this issue...for many reasons...

    What are these issues and what sort of strategies could be employed
    that would cause real damage to the sport? I don't see how Jan would
    gain an advantage over Lance if say...Jan knew that Lance was only
    running 40.5/15.2 starting the Tour in a new era of transparency. You
    either have it in the TT's and Mtn's or you don't.

  15. "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    A perfect utopia isn't necessary...just something with transparency
    and accountability. Our lives are filled with "unbiased" third-party
    entities which we entrust with much more important issues than
    tracking hct and hgb in endurance athletes.

    So where is the accountability when, among others, Benoit Joachim
    (nandrolone, 2000) or Christophe Brandt (methadone, 2004), Armstrong
    (corticoids, 1999), and the Peruvian candy eater (Simoni?) are announced as
    testing positive? Rightly or luckily, all of these riders were exonerated.
    However, shouldn't due process be exhausted before such announcements are
    made public?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That is why I suggested public transparency on this.

    That is neither the rider's fault nor problem to solve.

    Among other issues would be the potential use of published blood records


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a source of strategic information.

    Who is at fault?

    For public disclosure without due process? Who do you think?

    Quoted message said:

    Who should solve the problem? Isn't it the riders
    who are suppossedly falsely accused or choose/extorted/cohersed to use
    product if they want to be successful in the current arena? I think
    the riders should play a bigger role than they currently do. They are
    all so PC on this issue...for many reasons...

    I do too, but not necessarily in the same direction as you. If the Pro Tour
    makes it, then the riders need to push for a more powerful riders union to
    force greater accountability.

    Quoted message said:

    What are these issues and what sort of strategies could be employed
    that would cause real damage to the sport? I don't see how Jan would
    gain an advantage over Lance if say...Jan knew that Lance was only
    running 40.5/15.2 starting the Tour in a new era of transparency. You
    either have it in the TT's and Mtn's or you don't.

    I disagree. Not that you don't have to have good abilities in tts and mtns,
    but that you can boil a grand tour down to a single statement like that. The
    GTs have been won with too many different variations of those abilities to
    say that knowing where you stand in hct vs. your opponents wouldn't affect
    the strategy of the race, just as I feel radio communication between riders
    and team cars takes a variable out of the race, too.

    YMMV.

  16. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Who should solve the problem? Isn't it the riders
    who are suppossedly falsely accused or choose/extorted/cohersed to use
    product if they want to be successful in the current arena? I think
    the riders should play a bigger role than they currently do. They are
    all so PC on this issue...for many reasons...

    I do too, but not necessarily in the same direction as you. If the Pro


    Tour

    Quoted message said:

    makes it, then the riders need to push for a more powerful riders union to
    force greater accountability.

    Isn't it in the best interest of everyone involved (riders, sponsors, the
    sport itself) to not disclose what ultimately turns out to be a false
    positive? Who benefits from public disclosure of a false positive?

  17. [email hidden] (kaiser) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass: If you read CritPro's article, he gets his salary info from
    an article published in the San Diego Union.

    Really? Where are his Prime Alliance and Saturn DOMESTIC salaries in
    that article? The only reference to these salaries are from Crit Pro.

    What makes you think I didn't read it?

    Thank you for your thoughtful name calling though. It is a nice
    touch. ;-)

  18. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "L. Seer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    A perfect utopia isn't necessary...just something with transparency
    and accountability. Our lives are filled with "unbiased" third-party
    entities which we entrust with much more important issues than
    tracking hct and hgb in endurance athletes.

    So where is the accountability when, among others, Benoit Joachim
    (nandrolone, 2000) or Christophe Brandt (methadone, 2004), Armstrong
    (corticoids, 1999), and the Peruvian candy eater (Simoni?) are announced as
    testing positive? Rightly or luckily, all of these riders were exonerated.
    However, shouldn't due process be exhausted before such announcements are
    made public?

    What do your examples that have to do with tracking and publishing hct
    and hgb? Public tracking along with the hematology passport would
    make for some level of deterence without the need for any sanction.

    FYI...Lance's '99 positive was not properly executed. He did not
    present a certificate for that substance at the time of the test as
    required by protocol which mandates a sanction for non-compliance.
    Just ask Ludo who was sanctioned for the same offence at the '99
    Tour...even though he had a prescription on file...and in fact only
    listed it on his proclomation and did not test positive.

    Lance presented two public versions of that incident,"I didn't think I
    had to register a cream [or there abouts]," and later in his book he
    said,"I cleared it with the Tour authorities in advance of the race."

    Lier or doper? Kind of off-subject but still hilarious!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > That is why I suggested public transparency on this.

    That is neither the rider's fault nor problem to solve.

    Among other issues would be the potential use of published blood records


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a source of strategic information.

    Who is at fault?

    For public disclosure without due process? Who do you think?

    I still don't get what you are talking about. Due process for what?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Who should solve the problem? Isn't it the riders
    who are suppossedly falsely accused or choose/extorted/cohersed to use
    product if they want to be successful in the current arena? I think
    the riders should play a bigger role than they currently do. They are
    all so PC on this issue...for many reasons...

    I do too, but not necessarily in the same direction as you. If the Pro Tour
    makes it, then the riders need to push for a more powerful riders union to
    force greater accountability.

    I totally agree with you. The rider's union is too weak, and a strong
    one could be helpful. Right now the star riders actually do have
    significant, individual power which is ripe to be abused (if not
    currently).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What are these issues and what sort of strategies could be employed
    that would cause real damage to the sport? I don't see how Jan would
    gain an advantage over Lance if say...Jan knew that Lance was only
    running 40.5/15.2 starting the Tour in a new era of transparency. You
    either have it in the TT's and Mtn's or you don't.

    I disagree. Not that you don't have to have good abilities in tts and mtns,
    but that you can boil a grand tour down to a single statement like that. The
    GTs have been won with too many different variations of those abilities to
    say that knowing where you stand in hct vs. your opponents wouldn't affect
    the strategy of the race, just as I feel radio communication between riders
    and team cars takes a variable out of the race, too.

    YMMV.

    If you don't have the watts/CdA or watts/kg combined with efficiency,
    you cannot win in this era. You either have it (through one means or
    another), giving you have a chance within the other variables, or you
    don't and you are fodder or a non-GC rider. I see no bennefit to an
    opponent knowing what a competitor's hct or hgb is at the start or end
    of a Tour other than with a public record of monthly levels and the
    hemo passport, some assurance that the field is level.

  19. We'll see how the team wants to play it," Dionne told VeloNews before
    the race, "but one Webcor is going to win it."

    Hey - if you can do it, it ain't braggin.'

    none of you get it?

    Horner is a worker when a teammate has the legs to win it is just
    usually he is the one with the legs

    Quoted message said:

    1. Horner will not win the SFGP.

    2. It will be someone else's fault.

    3. Just ask him

  20. Since the governing bodies do not wish to actually solve the problem
    (they simply wish the reporting of the problem would go away)...What
    you propose would empower them to essentially "wish away" the problem
    altogether. If they report no allgations, then they can "exonerate"
    everyone, and, viola! Zee problem is finis!...And no one would ever
    know anything different.

    At least we know that a (very) good percentage of those caught are
    actually guilty (thank those that sang like birds)...I wanna know when
    they test positive, so that I can pay attention to the due process
    that you cited.

    -k

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Who should solve the problem? Isn't it the riders
    who are suppossedly falsely accused or choose/extorted/cohersed to use
    product if they want to be successful in the current arena? I think
    the riders should play a bigger role than they currently do. They are
    all so PC on this issue...for many reasons...

    I do too, but not necessarily in the same direction as you. If the Pro


    Tour

    Quoted message said:

    makes it, then the riders need to push for a more powerful riders union to
    force greater accountability.

    Isn't it in the best interest of everyone involved (riders, sponsors, the
    sport itself) to not disclose what ultimately turns out to be a false
    positive? Who benefits from public disclosure of a false positive?

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