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Road Cycling
Published
12 September 2004
Last activity
26 September 2004
Original author
Robert Chung
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  1. On 15 Sep 2004 16:05:40 -0700, [email hidden] (Benjamin Weiner)

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich said:

    The ANG was highly unlikely to have a Selectric in 1972. For crying out
    loud, I didn't even see one until the mid-80's in anything but huge
    companies. Selectrics were extremely expensive for typewriters and were
    generally only available for the bosses private secretary at large
    companies.

    You must mean a Selectric Composer. At least I hope you do, because
    even my public middle school had a typing class in 1980 using plain old
    type-ball Selectrics. Not that I think any of this [censored] matters.

    Using family influence to avoid dangerous service is understandable --
    a lot of people would've done that if they could. But to do it, or
    maybe even have been AWOL, and then have the gall to fly onto a
    military ship, dressed up like a pilot, saying Mission Accomplished,
    all while undercutting the professional leadership in our military,
    screwing over people who joined the service now and are serving in a
    hazardous situations, is appalling.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  2. "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Dude, I work in desktop publishing a lot and am familiar with kerning,
    tracking, leading, superscripts,etc, etc. As I said, could
    typewriters produce text that looks like the text in the memo? And did
    the unit in question use them?

    A manual typewriter - no without any question whatsoever. A manual
    typewriter spaces with a gear drive and hence can only step full spaces


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    nothing in between.

    The ANG was highly unlikely to have a Selectric in 1972. For crying out
    loud, I didn't even see one until the mid-80's in anything but huge
    companies. Selectrics were extremely expensive for typewriters and were
    generally only available for the bosses private secretary at large
    companies.

    I don't care about when you first saw one or when I got one or when
    the CEO of General Motors's secretary got one. That's irrelevant and
    focusing on that is perhaps an attempt to perpetuate doubt. The
    question is, did the unit in question have one? Or perhaps did a
    similar unit in the Guard have them? The way to answer this question
    is to either see if there is evidence that that unit may have had it,
    perhaps through purchasing records or diverse testimony of some kind.
    Or else to look at other, less controversial documents produced by
    that or similar units or offices to see if they had some of the
    features that typical typewriters do not have.

    According to Killian's secretary (Marian Carr Knox)the memos in question
    were not typed by her, had to have been if they were real, and that the
    terminology used wasn't Guard but Army terminology.
    (http://www.drudgereport.com/bushtang.htm)

    And one of See-BS's own handwriting experts told them that the signature
    wasn't Killian's.
    (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_04091
    4.html)

    Just how much proof do you need?

    BTW, one year after these memos were sent Killian's secretary was still
    writing on a manual typewriter.

  3. "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Dude, I work in desktop publishing a lot and am familiar with kerning,
    tracking, leading, superscripts,etc, etc. As I said, could
    typewriters produce text that looks like the text in the memo? And did
    the unit in question use them?

    A manual typewriter - no without any question whatsoever. A manual
    typewriter spaces with a gear drive and hence can only step full spaces


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    nothing in between.

    The ANG was highly unlikely to have a Selectric in 1972. For crying out
    loud, I didn't even see one until the mid-80's in anything but huge
    companies. Selectrics were extremely expensive for typewriters and were
    generally only available for the bosses private secretary at large
    companies.

    I don't care about when you first saw one or when I got one or when
    the CEO of General Motors's secretary got one. That's irrelevant and
    focusing on that is perhaps an attempt to perpetuate doubt. The
    question is, did the unit in question have one? Or perhaps did a
    similar unit in the Guard have them? The way to answer this question
    is to either see if there is evidence that that unit may have had it,
    perhaps through purchasing records or diverse testimony of some kind.
    Or else to look at other, less controversial documents produced by
    that or similar units or offices to see if they had some of the
    features that typical typewriters do not have.

    According to Killian's secretary (Marian Carr Knox)the memos in question
    were not typed by her, had to have been if they were real, and that the
    terminology used wasn't Guard but Army terminology.
    (http://www.drudgereport.com/bushtang.htm)

    And one of See-BS's own handwriting experts told them that the signature
    wasn't Killian's.
    (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_04091
    4.html)

    Just how much proof do you need?

    BTW, one year after these memos were sent Killian's secretary was still
    writing on a manual typewriter.

  4. "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich said:

    And if that doesn't frighten the bejesus out of you, perhaps you should
    remain permanently in France.

    Yikes, *that's* the kind of stuff that frightens the bejesus out of you?
    Oh, Tom, don't be such a girlie man.

    Think about this Robert. It isn't funny.

  5. Here is a link to some info about soldiers being screwed over by this
    administration.
    http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/article_04_11_03vetshealthcare.html

    Do a google for soldiers benefits denied and you get some interesting stuff.
    Also here are some things that are being researched by Soldiers for the Truth.
    http://www.sftt.org/

    Not Wounded In Action
    Tell me your story. Calling Operation Iraqi Freedom veterans. If you sustained
    serious, life-changing injuries or illness in Iraq, but are not considered
    "Wounded in Action" by the military, I want to hear your story. Please send
    information here

    Army Recruiting In Trouble?
    "We the recruiters who beat the streets for the Army are struggling very hard,
    especialy the Reserve and Guard. The senior army leadership continues to openly
    deny this but I'm hear to tell you otherwise. I've been recruiting for years
    now and it's never been worse" -- OLD SERGEANT. Folks, I would like to hear
    from more Army recruiters about this. Send your input to me, it will be held
    confidential. Thx, Hack

    Just wanted to put some of this out before someone jumps on JT.
    Bill C

  6. "Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:48:22 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Aside from typesetters, almost no one could do this. In fact it wasn't


    even

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    considered by typists until the advent of the CRT screen on which the
    typists result would show and be corrected BEFORE it went on paper.

    Well, not exactly. The better Selectrics had a small display that
    permitted composing over several lines before printing. From memory,
    they came out in the late 1970s, which would precede large scale use
    of word processing at the desk by several years.

    NOT in 1972! The only displays available were extremely crude CRT displays
    and Nixie Tubes which were only available in numbers or a few letters. You
    have to remember that in 1970 I obtained the FIRST Sylvania solid state
    memory ICs and tested them. They could store 16 bits and the die was
    mis-wired so that half of the bits were high true and the other half were
    low true. By 1972 the VERY first LED numeric displays were hitting the
    market and were almost unobtainable unless you were a pocket calculator
    manufacturer and were ordering them by the millions.

    So there really wasn't anything available in 1972 that cold display an
    entire line for a typewritten page.

    Quoted message said:

    Two people that are evidently even more interested in this sideline
    than myself have identified the one 'typewriter' that would come
    close. Evidently there was a 1972 $ 3,600 machine (1972 dollars)
    called the Selectric Composer (mini-typesetter rather than a true
    typewriter) that could come awfully darned close. Except it required
    changing font sets to do the superscript as in the memo and when they
    got closer to the actual memo it revealed that the Times Roman used by
    the Selectric font ball - a rarity - did not come that close to
    matching in certain areas.

    I haven't seen a single reference to any Times Roman script balls and have
    some real doubts because they would be of such extremely limited demand.
    Making these balls was VERY expensive since the tooling had to be all hand
    made.

    Quoted message said:

    I agree that this is a sideline, but its the type of thing that swings
    elections if allowed (by the Democrats) to continue. It doesn't even
    have to escalate and the eventual fraud (my opinion) doesn't have to
    be tied directly to the Democrats or anyone associated with the DNC or
    the Kerry election group.

    It's my belief that this all stems from the Clinton group who intend to keep
    Kerry out in order to have a plausible platform for Hillary in '08.

    Quoted message said:

    This is about swing voters. The Republican Convention created real
    momentum and at the point that Kerry has to stop that momentum and
    move it in his direction, you have this grabbing the headlines. Terry
    Mcauliffe's remarks to the contrary, no one else is linking this to
    the Republican side (although it does make interesting conspiracy
    theory, all tied to a certainty that Rather and CBS couldn't resist
    the bait). This is bad for the Democrats and it only has to live
    another couple of weeks to make the difference. THE difference.

    Electioneering has always been a dirty business but network news owes their
    entire fortunes to the fact that they are licensed to send their commercials
    ot over public airwaves. If that's the case they OWE us the very least of
    presenting as neutral a news reporting as possible.

    Over the years the networks have been moving further and further to the
    left. Not as a purposeful shift but because they tend to hire journalists
    who agree with the bosses and don't make waves and that sort of thing causes
    those sorts of shifts.

    But now it is so outrageous I believe that the FCC will have to step in with
    some sort of "Fairness Doctrine" that all stations must abide by or lose
    their licenses.

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: "Tom Kunich" [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    But now it is so outrageous I believe that the FCC will have to step in with
    some sort of "Fairness Doctrine" that all stations must abide by or lose
    their licenses.

    Not going to happen and Rather has done this before.

    You might not like the source but the information is easy enough to verify.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/morse200409150552.asp

    Bill C

  8. What I don't get is the plays to the undecided voters. How
    anyone could be undecided in this election escapes me.
    I think that anyone who is undecided at this date has a
    patriotic duty to stay the hell home on election day, since
    they're obviously not paying attention.

    The downside of the low number of undecideds is that the
    only way to gain ground is to drive your opponents voters
    away from the polls. A long time ago I expected this to
    be one of the dirtiest elections ever and I don't think
    the last weeks will prove me wrong.

    Bob Schwartz
    [email hidden]

  9. Quoted message said:

    From: Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    The downside of the low number of undecideds is that the
    only way to gain ground is to drive your opponents voters
    away from the polls. A long time ago I expected this to
    be one of the dirtiest elections ever and I don't think
    the last weeks will prove me wrong.

    Bob Schwartz
    [email hidden]

    Wait until the next one especially if Bush wins and Hillary runs in 2008. You
    aint seen nothin' yet. That'll start out as a train wreck and get uglier every
    day.
    Bill C

  10. gwhite said:

    Benjamin Weiner wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have enough evidence from the last four years to
    make up my mind on the candidates.

    Yeah, I'll probably vote for Badnarik too.

    Damn, I didn't even realize Chuck Bednarik was running!
    He was tough as nails, he might be a little old though.

    "A linebacker is like an animal. He's like a lion or a tiger
    and he goes after prey. He wants to eat him, he wants to kick"
    the ---- out of him. That's a linebacker." - Bednarik

    http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Bednarik_Chuck.html

    It would be even cooler if he picked Chuck Palahniuk, the
    guy who wrote Fight Club, as his VP. A Bednarik-Palahniuk
    ticket would carry the Rust Belt from Pittsburgh to Chicago
    on the names alone.

    Although, hardly anybody lives in the Rust Belt anymore.

    -Ben
    Rust Belt expatriate

  11. John Forrest Tomlinson said:

    [email hidden] (Benjamin Weiner) wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    type-ball Selectrics. Not that I think any of this [censored] matters.

    Using family influence to avoid dangerous service is understandable --
    a lot of people would've done that if they could. But to do it, or
    maybe even have been AWOL, and then have the gall to fly onto a
    military ship, dressed up like a pilot, saying Mission Accomplished,
    all while undercutting the professional leadership in our military,
    screwing over people who joined the service now and are serving in a
    hazardous situations, is appalling.

    That's a fair statement. What I said was poorly worded. The truth or
    falsity of this memo [censored] doesn't matter much to me. Because it's
    arguing about whether GWB used influence or not and showed up or not,
    while it's undisputed that he copped easy duty, whether through good
    fortune or family influence or whatever. The rest of your argument
    follows from that alone. The memo is a distraction, something for
    bloggers and Beltway professionals to argue about and keep in the
    headlines to avoid discussing any real issues. If it turns out to
    be fake, is GWB exonerated of hubris? Not to me.

  12. Tom Kunich said:

    No. Fax yourself a memo and you'll see that it doesn't get pixelated, it
    gets smeared.

    And if they were Faxed, explain why See-BS has a set on their site that look
    almost original.

    Easy to check now. Go to Kinko's in Abilene and check out their fax
    machine. Now famous for more than just the Nancy Griffith song...

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Benjamin Weiner) said:
    Tom Kunich said:

    The ANG was highly unlikely to have a Selectric in 1972. For crying out
    loud, I didn't even see one until the mid-80's in anything but huge
    companies. Selectrics were extremely expensive for typewriters and were
    generally only available for the bosses private secretary at large
    companies.

    You must mean a Selectric Composer. At least I hope you do, because
    even my public middle school had a typing class in 1980 using plain old
    type-ball Selectrics. Not that I think any of this [censored] matters.
    At bottom, everyone is arguing about whether a putative decades-old memo
    _proves_ something that they all more or less assume to be true
    (GWB had a easy time in the ANG). It's funny hearing the same people
    that tolerated that Swift Boat Veterans ad go off about standards of
    historical accuracy. I'm not voting on the grounds of what happened
    in 1972, anyway. I have enough evidence from the last four years to
    make up my mind on the candidates.

    I think the reason things like this have come to the forefront is that
    GWB has made a claim on "character". The facts that are apparent (*not*
    including the current memos) show a guy who used family influence to get to
    the front of a long line to get out of service, many missed exercises in
    the middle of his tour, and a chance to get out of completing it so he
    could go to business school. As you said: "GWB had a easy time in the ANG".
    For many people, this kind of activity puts a big dent in the "character"
    issue. I guess it is somewhat galling to see him get that kind of treatment
    when his DoD is turning the tour of duty for the troops he has in Iraq into
    near open ended ones. Perhaps they might like to go to business school...

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
    Albert Einstein

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  14. "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > Dude, I work in desktop publishing a lot and am familiar with kerning,
    > tracking, leading, superscripts,etc, etc. As I said, could
    > typewriters produce text that looks like the text in the memo? And did
    > the unit in question use them?

    A manual typewriter - no without any question whatsoever. A manual
    typewriter spaces with a gear drive and hence can only step full spaces


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    nothing in between.

    The ANG was highly unlikely to have a Selectric in 1972. For crying out
    loud, I didn't even see one until the mid-80's in anything but huge
    companies. Selectrics were extremely expensive for typewriters and were
    generally only available for the bosses private secretary at large
    companies.

    I don't care about when you first saw one or when I got one or when
    the CEO of General Motors's secretary got one. That's irrelevant and
    focusing on that is perhaps an attempt to perpetuate doubt. The
    question is, did the unit in question have one? Or perhaps did a
    similar unit in the Guard have them? The way to answer this question
    is to either see if there is evidence that that unit may have had it,
    perhaps through purchasing records or diverse testimony of some kind.
    Or else to look at other, less controversial documents produced by
    that or similar units or offices to see if they had some of the
    features that typical typewriters do not have.

    According to Killian's secretary (Marian Carr Knox)the memos in question
    were not typed by her, had to have been if they were real, and that the
    terminology used wasn't Guard but Army terminology.
    (http://www.drudgereport.com/bushtang.htm)

    And one of See-BS's own handwriting experts told them that the signature
    wasn't Killian's.
    (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_04091
    4.html)

    Just how much proof do you need?

    BTW, one year after these memos were sent Killian's secretary was still
    writing on a manual typewriter.

    Also from Marina Knoxx
    (included in AP Story, 'CBS Softens Defense of Bush Documents', Sep
    16, 2004)

    CBS on Wednesday flew Killian's former secretary, Marian Carr Knox,
    86, from Texas to New York for an interview. In the interview, Knox
    said she believed the documents were fake but their content accurately
    reflected Killian's opinions.

    "I know that I didn't type them," she said. "However, the information
    in those is correct."

    ----

    But I suppose the type of typewriter she used is more important to you
    than the truth of what was said.

  15. TritonRider said:


    Army Recruiting In Trouble?

    http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3185596,00.html

  16. "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    According to Killian's secretary (Marian Carr Knox)the memos in question
    were not typed by her, had to have been if they were real, and that the
    terminology used wasn't Guard but Army terminology.
    (http://www.drudgereport.com/bushtang.htm)

    And one of See-BS's own handwriting experts told them that the signature
    wasn't Killian's.
    (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_04091
    4.html)

    Just how much proof do you need?

    That's fine proof. I was objecting to your nonsensical comments that
    simply because typewriters that could do proportional spacing were
    rare, therefore the documents were forged. That's logically flawed.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  17. "Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    TritonRider said:


    Army Recruiting In Trouble?

    http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3185596,00.html

    Actually, it's been no big secret here in CS since last Spring,
    that a large deployment will be shipping out from Ft. Carson around Nov.
    They've been playing war games and training all summer.
    For those of you who aren't familiar, Ft. Carson is home of
    the 3rd Armored Calv., the guys who invaded Iraq.

    My guess is that Bush will be planning his next conquest around
    that time.... Iran or N. Korea? your guess is as good as mine.
    But something BIG is about to happen. Our local media, as usual,
    has missed the real story.

    The "war" has just begun. That's the real reason behind the
    recruitment tactics. IMHO, The next step will be a draft starting
    around Jan-Feb of next year.

    It's like they say, "absolute power corrupts, absolutely...".

  18. On 15 Sep 2004 16:05:40 -0700, [email hidden] (Benjamin Weiner)

    Quoted message said:

    It's funny hearing the same people
    that tolerated that Swift Boat Veterans ad go off about standards of
    historical accuracy. I'm not voting on the grounds of what happened
    in 1972, anyway. I have enough evidence from the last four years to
    make up my mind on the candidates.

    Except there is nothing similar being waved about by the equivalent of
    a CBS - the exception being the Kerry diaries and they aren't being
    disputed by either side. Several commentators on the more liberal side
    have also said that the Swift Boat Veterans were more transparent and
    open with their evidence than CBS - even if they don't agree with it.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  19. On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:05:59 -0000, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    What I don't get is the plays to the undecided voters. How
    anyone could be undecided in this election escapes me.
    I think that anyone who is undecided at this date has a
    patriotic duty to stay the hell home on election day, since
    they're obviously not paying attention.

    Or maybe they are paying plenty of attention, but find that they have
    more than one issue that concerns them, and neither candidate clearly
    wins on all issues.

    Your comment really means, "I don't understand why anyone that isn't a
    dipshit voting for the other side hasn't already decided to vote with
    our side."

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  20. (TritonRider) said:

    Wait until the next one especially if Bush wins and Hillary runs in 2008. You
    aint seen nothin' yet. That'll start out as a train wreck and get uglier every
    day.

    Except the whole premise is based on some assumption that our current
    elections are even remotely as unpleasant as in the past. Perhaps
    since the mid 1900s, but 2000, 2004 and probably 2008 will not
    remotely approach the worst elections. Nasty perhaps, and not what we
    would want from the election. But not in the top 10 for being nasty
    overall.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

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