blood transfusions

MartinM said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they

never

Quoted message said:

learn?
But there is also an article in the Times today about Autologous
transfusions(ie your own blood). We use this occasionally for people
coming in for an operation, the idea being that you can make up your
red cell count while your donated blood is in the fridge for a few
weeks (usually maximum of 2 units about 500ml) then they give it back
to you to replace what you lose in surgery; not generally encouraged
because it is a lot more work and money than just pulling two units

of

Quoted message said:

eg O positive off the shelf but in theory much safer. Very sneaky to
use it for cycling though; almost undetectable.

This is the old blood doping trick and was used by a top long distance
runner. Extract the blood after some serious altitude training then use
it for a transfusion before a sea level event. Loads more red blood
cells.

MSeries said:

MartinM said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they

never

Quoted message said:

learn?
But there is also an article in the Times today about Autologous
transfusions(ie your own blood). We use this occasionally for people
coming in for an operation, the idea being that you can make up your
red cell count while your donated blood is in the fridge for a few
weeks (usually maximum of 2 units about 500ml) then they give it back
to you to replace what you lose in surgery; not generally encouraged
because it is a lot more work and money than just pulling two units

of

Quoted message said:

eg O positive off the shelf but in theory much safer. Very sneaky to
use it for cycling though; almost undetectable.

This is the old blood doping trick and was used by a top long distance
runner. Extract the blood after some serious altitude training then use
it for a transfusion before a sea level event. Loads more red blood
cells.

I think it works even without the altitude training bit.

Paul Rudin said:

I think it works even without the altitude training bit.

Indeed, the body will make up the red cells whatever. A blood donor can
in theory give a unit of blood every 12 weeks with no ill effects. But
they will find them , there are various side effects of transfusion
even if it is your own. But according to the BBC Tyler was getting
other peoples; this can also be detected, there are hundreds of other
blood group systems and no two people are identical.

Quoted message said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they never
learn?

Indeed, but there is a *tiny* chance that he's a chimera. I kid you not.

From New Scientist, 15 November 2003
"The Stranger Within"

"It took Kruskall and her team two years to crack the riddle. In the end they
discovered that Jane is a chimera, a mixture of two individuals - non-identical
twin sisters - who fused in the womb and grew into a single body. Some parts of
her are derived from one twin, others from the other. It seems bizarre that
this can happen at all, but Jane's is not an isolated case. Around 30 similar
instances of chimerism have been reported, and there are probably many more out
there who will never discover their unusual origins.
While cases like Jane's are the extreme, researchers now think that there's a
little bit of chimera in all of us, and what was once seen as a biological
oddity may serve a vital function. We may owe our lives to being chimeras."

"Kruskall thinks the most likely explanation for this is that Jane's mother
conceived non-identical twin girls, who fused at an early stage of the
pregnancy to form a single embryo. In medical parlance, Jane is a tetragametic
chimera, a person whose body is made up from two genetically distinct lines of
cells derived from a total of four gametes - eggs and sperm."

"Nobody knows how common tetragametic chimerism is. It often has no outward
signs and those who uncover their chimeric nature do so only by accident.
Nature reported a similar case to Jane's in 1979, when genetic tests suggested
that a woman could not be the mother of any of her four children. There had
been no hint that the woman was chimeric."

"But the story doesn't end there. There is growing evidence that chimerism in
one form or another may not be so unusual at all. In fact, some researchers now
think that most of us, if not all, are chimeras of one kind or another. Far
from being pure-bred individuals composed of a single genetic cell line, our
bodies are cellular mongrels, teeming with cells from our mothers, maybe even
from grandparents and siblings. This may seem a little shocking at first. The
thought of playing host to cells from other people may offend your sense of
individuality. But you may have those outsiders to thank for keeping you
healthy."

Not saying he isn't cheating, not saying he is, but there may be an entirely
good reason why he's returned the positive test???

Cheers, helen s

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to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:58:54 +0000, dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they never
learn?

Indeed, but there is a *tiny* chance that he's a chimera. I kid you not.

From New Scientist, 15 November 2003
"The Stranger Within"

"It took Kruskall and her team two years to crack the riddle. In the end they
discovered that Jane is a chimera, a mixture of two individuals - non-identical
twin sisters - who fused in the womb and grew into a single body. Some parts of
her are derived from one twin, others from the other. It seems bizarre that
this can happen at all, but Jane's is not an isolated case. Around 30 similar
instances of chimerism have been reported, and there are probably many more out
there who will never discover their unusual origins.
While cases like Jane's are the extreme, researchers now think that there's a
little bit of chimera in all of us, and what was once seen as a biological
oddity may serve a vital function. We may owe our lives to being chimeras."

"Kruskall thinks the most likely explanation for this is that Jane's mother
conceived non-identical twin girls, who fused at an early stage of the
pregnancy to form a single embryo. In medical parlance, Jane is a tetragametic
chimera, a person whose body is made up from two genetically distinct lines of
cells derived from a total of four gametes - eggs and sperm."

"Nobody knows how common tetragametic chimerism is. It often has no outward
signs and those who uncover their chimeric nature do so only by accident.
Nature reported a similar case to Jane's in 1979, when genetic tests suggested
that a woman could not be the mother of any of her four children. There had
been no hint that the woman was chimeric."

"But the story doesn't end there. There is growing evidence that chimerism in
one form or another may not be so unusual at all. In fact, some researchers now
think that most of us, if not all, are chimeras of one kind or another. Far
from being pure-bred individuals composed of a single genetic cell line, our
bodies are cellular mongrels, teeming with cells from our mothers, maybe even
from grandparents and siblings. This may seem a little shocking at first. The
thought of playing host to cells from other people may offend your sense of
individuality. But you may have those outsiders to thank for keeping you
healthy."

Not saying he isn't cheating, not saying he is, but there may be an entirely
good reason why he's returned the positive test???

To stray OT a little, are you the same Helen Simmons as wrote into
the feedback section of the New Scientist last week?

Or to stray to another thread, are there inifinitely many Helen Simmonses
who read the New Scientist out there?

AC

Quoted message said:

To stray OT a little, are you the same Helen Simmons as wrote into
the feedback section of the New Scientist last week?

I am indeed the Helen Simmons who has a mention in Feedback about "Geekman". I
gave that one to John, the Feedback editor ages ago, so he must have been
hanging on to that one for a while now. I've had various things appear there -
and I get paid for them :-)

Quoted message said:

Or to stray to another thread, are there inifinitely many Helen Simmonses
who read the New Scientist out there?

AC

I suppose I could have a chimera... or it/he/she/they could have me.. or...
or...

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Indeed, but there is a *tiny* chance that he's a chimera. I kid you not.

: Not saying he isn't cheating, not saying he is, but there may be an entirely
: good reason why he's returned the positive test???

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the unlikely
one. Shame. Especially since he rides for CSC.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Arthur Clune said:

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the

unlikely

Quoted message said:

one.

Me too. These stories don't surprise me any more, the riders name is
irrelevant. All riders take certain substances, some are not prohibited
at the moment.

Quoted message said:

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the unlikely
one. Shame. Especially since he rides for CSC.

Arthur

I think that it is most likely there is something untoward going on, but it is
innocent until proven guilty. If guilty, I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the

unlikely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one. Shame. Especially since he rides for CSC.

Arthur

I think that it is most likely there is something untoward going on,

but it is

Quoted message said:

innocent until proven guilty. If guilty, I have no sympathy for him

whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, helen s

The chimerism theory is fairly easy to disprove; transfused cells only
survive about 80-120 days, after which he will revert to his normal red
cell population, unless of course he has his own secret personal blood
donor to keep topping him up. Just hope this individual hasn't been
eating beefburgers ;-)

MartinM said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the

unlikely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one. Shame.

he has dug himself into a hole here according to the Times online;

Hamilton, 33, denied blood doping, claiming that the positive test
results had been caused by transfusions after undergoing surgery in
recent months.

(It would have to have been 80-120 days prior to testing; is he saying
he had a transfusion after surgery around the time or during the build
up to the Tour?)

The first irregularities were detected in a blood sample provided by
Hamilton after his gold medal-winning performance in Athens on August
18. Another sample was taken after the American had won a time-trial at
the Tour of Spain on September 11. Hamilton dropped out of that race on
Friday, citing an upset stomach.

"I'm devastated," Hamilton said. "I can guarantee you that
I'm innocent. I've been accused of taking blood from another
person. Anyone who knows me knows that it is completely impossible.

"Cycling is very important to me but not that important. If I ever
had to do that (doping), I'd hang the bike on the rack.

"I can guarantee you that the (Olympic) gold medal will be staying in
my living room until I don't have a cent left. I've worked hard for
it and it's not going anywhere."

The use of blood doping to boost performance is not new but had been
undetectable. Athletes in many sports have long been suspected of
removing oxygen-rich blood from their bodies during training periods
and then having it returned just before a competition.

Over the past four years, Australian researchers have been working on a
legally watertight test that could detect instances of blood doping.
The test, used for the first time in Athens, can detect blood
transfusions performed up to four weeks previously, based on levels of
haemoglobin and immature red blood cells.

Quoted message said:

Me too. These stories don't surprise me any more, the riders name is
irrelevant. All riders take certain substances, some are not prohibited
at the moment.

According to an American article, it's a European conspiracy...

http://www.thedailyitemoflynn.com/news/view.bg?articleid=7191

"The father of U.S. cyclist Tyler Hamilton said yesterday he feels that an
investigation that may result in the former Marbleheader's forfeiture of his
Olympic gold medal is part of an overall European conspiracy to discredit
American riders.

"This is bizarre," said Bill Hamilton of Marblehead. "I do think this is a
conspiracy. They're quick to jump on anything like this that'll discredit an
American."

Now, being a parent myself, I can entirely understand the parental *need* to
defend offspring. I can entirely understand the *need* to be angry when the
offspring is 'attacked'. I think the "European conspiracy" angle as stated by
the article is pushing it a bit though!

Cheers, helen s

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to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

MartinM said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they never
learn?
But there is also an article in the Times today about Autologous
transfusions(ie your own blood). We use this occasionally for people
coming in for an operation, the idea being that you can make up your
red cell count while your donated blood is in the fridge for a few
weeks (usually maximum of 2 units about 500ml) then they give it back
to you to replace what you lose in surgery; not generally encouraged
because it is a lot more work and money than just pulling two units of
eg O positive off the shelf but in theory much safer. Very sneaky to
use it for cycling though; almost undetectable.

Very common in the US and they even have blood scavenging systems in
operating rooms to gather blood lost during an operation and reinfuse it.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

MartinM said:

Just read the BBC report about Tyler Hamilton; oh dear, will they

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

learn?
But there is also an article in the Times today about Autologous
transfusions(ie your own blood). We use this occasionally for

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

coming in for an operation, the idea being that you can make up

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

red cell count while your donated blood is in the fridge for a few
weeks (usually maximum of 2 units about 500ml) then they give it

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to you to replace what you lose in surgery; not generally

encouraged

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because it is a lot more work and money than just pulling two units

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

eg O positive off the shelf but in theory much safer. Very sneaky

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use it for cycling though; almost undetectable.

Very common in the US and they even have blood scavenging systems in
operating rooms to gather blood lost during an operation and reinfuse

it.

we have them as well. The pioneering US hospital dealing with bloodless
surgery is the Jehova's Witness one IIRC. We get a lot of requests for
parents to donate blood for their children, all strictly forbidden over
here, it's either your own or general donor blood.

Arthur Clune said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Indeed, but there is a *tiny* chance that he's a chimera. I kid you not.

: Not saying he isn't cheating, not saying he is, but there may be an entirely
: good reason why he's returned the positive test???

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the unlikely
one. Shame. Especially since he rides for CSC.

Arthur

Actually he moved to Phonak this year, though interestingly after he
won the Olympic TT he gave special thanks to his Italian doctor, the
same doctor who used to treat Bjarne Riis. That's former TdF winner
Bjarne Riis (and Hamilton's former DS at CSC) whose nickname in
cycling circles is "Mr 60 percent"

Regards!
Stephen

Steve McGinty said:

Bjarne Riis (and Hamilton's former DS at CSC) whose nickname in
cycling circles is "Mr 60 percent"

However,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=lnq59b.81c.ln%40reippuert.dk

Steve McGinty said:

Arthur Clune said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

: Indeed, but there is a *tiny* chance that he's a chimera. I kid

you not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

: Not saying he isn't cheating, not saying he is, but there may be

an entirely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

: good reason why he's returned the positive test???

Sadly I'll take the likely explanation (he took drugs) over the

unlikely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one. Shame. Especially since he rides for CSC.

Arthur

Actually he moved to Phonak this year, though interestingly after he
won the Olympic TT he gave special thanks to his Italian doctor, the
same doctor who used to treat Bjarne Riis. That's former TdF winner
Bjarne Riis (and Hamilton's former DS at CSC) whose nickname in
cycling circles is "Mr 60 percent"

referring to his Hct? (or PCV if expressed as a percentage)

"MartinM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just hope this individual hasn't been
eating beefburgers ;-)

Indeed - haven't some athletes' [1] positive dope tests been found to
be caused by eating US-produced beef from cattle treated with
nandrolone, etc. to increase the meat yield?

David E. Belcher

[1] Possibly Linford Christie and Mark Richardson amongst others, see
also;
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/nandrolone/nandh.htm

"David E. Belcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"MartinM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just hope this individual hasn't been
eating beefburgers ;-)

Indeed - haven't some athletes' [1] positive dope tests been found to
be caused by eating US-produced beef from cattle treated with
nandrolone, etc. to increase the meat yield?

well I was thinking more about the CJD risk. BTW blood donation is set to
plummet when they bring out a test, would you want to know if you were prion
positive? it's not as if you will definitely contract CJD and if you do
there is no cure ;- (