Re: New stems vs. quills - New features ?

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in news:415303AA.7040009
@sheldonbrown.com:

Quoted message said:

In practice this is also the case with quill stems, since almost all
bikes with quill stems have them already adjusted to the "minimum
insertion" mark, and hardly anybody ever wants to put the bars _lower_.

I tend to ride bikes with fairly short headtubes, and I have this problem
with quill stems - that they never go as low as I want them to go,
because there just isn't enough headtube/steerer to put them into.

Can I take off the wedge, remove the screw and take an angle grinder to
the bottom of the stem to reduce the overall height of it?

-A

Sheldon Brown said:

•If you want lots of hand positions, you can mount two stems and two
handlebars on the same bike!

http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn

http://sheldonbrown.org/brown

If there's enough steerer tube available, why stop at two? A pair of
threadless stems and a quill, all on the same sterer, would not be
impossible to install. Then you could have a steep down-angle stem to
carry a short bar to mount the lights on, and both flat and drop bars
for riding position flexibility. Add bar ends to the flat bars (and
why stop there, the drops too) and a set of aero bars for even more
choices.

This rig ould be best used on a bike equipped with a triple front and
the Sachs 3x7 rear setup, of course; do they make the 3x7 with a
disc-mount hub, so that dual brakes can also be installed?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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Sheldon Brown said:

Retro Bob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK... having been out of the bicycle arena for about 25-30 years, I've
recently returned. I'm having trouble getting my hands around some
changes, but I'm getting there. The one that has me the most confused
is the new style stems vs. the quill design. What are the advantages
to the new design ? I can;t see an overall weight advantage, it's
not simpler, it's definitely not more elegant... ?=20

I think that one of the most salient points has been omitted :

=> an expander wedge stem often causes needless headset wear; many
people don't realize that headsets must be adjusted with wedge fully
expanded because that changes the length of the steering tube.

=> a fatter steering tube means a stiffer steering column; less
chance of flexion and the associated headset wear; increased longevity.

=> the 1" tradition expander wedge" stem, typically is solid
aluminum, with a chunkey steel wedge, that doesn't scale well at all
(in a weight sense) to a fatter steering tube.

The 300g gooseneck stem might become a 600g gooseneck with a 1.5" head
tube !!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Sheldon Brown said:

Additional advantages include:

Forgot the most important one. The clamp at the back of the steerer
tube provides a useful stop so when you hang your helmet over the bars,
it doesn't flop down onto the wheels.

Regards,

Suzy

PS: threadless stems don't _have_ to be ugly. See
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~sjackson/frame/audax_stem_painted.jpg

I generalized:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In practice this is also the case with quill stems, since almost all
bikes with quill stems have them already adjusted to the "minimum
insertion" mark, and hardly anybody ever wants to put the bars _lower_.

A shy person responded:

Quoted message said:

I tend to ride bikes with fairly short headtubes, and I have this problem
with quill stems - that they never go as low as I want them to go,
because there just isn't enough headtube/steerer to put them into.

Can I take off the wedge, remove the screw and take an angle grinder to
the bottom of the stem to reduce the overall height of it?

I usually use a hack saw for this, on the rare occasions it's needed,
then smooth the cut area with a disk sander.

One caveat for short folks who like their bars low:

Steerer tubes are generally butted, so the hole narrows near the bottom.

If you insert a quill stem until the wedge bottoms out into the narrowed
section of the steerer, you may wind up "clamping" to a section with a
conical bore.

If this happens, the stem can slip up and suddenly become completly
detached, with no warning. This is not fun!

To prevent this, when installing a quill stem, if you feel resistance at
the bottom, raise it up a quarter of an inch or so to ensure that you're
clamping in the cylindrical part of the steerer's bore.

Sheldon "Ouch!" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| Life is what happens to you, |
| while you're busy making other plans. |
| --John Lennon |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
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[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

PS: threadless stems don't _have_ to be ugly. See
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~sjackson/frame/audax_stem_painted.jpg

And I bet it is nice and cost effective ;-)

Lots of framemakers do the custom lugged stems, like that, just not
something for the masses. And no manufacturer has come up with any
threadless stem anywhere near as elegant and beautiful as the Nitto
Technomic Deluxe, much less the much more elegant Cinelli's etc. of
the past.

Now when there is a mass market threadless stem approaching the
elegance of even the lowly Technomic then it will be time to raise the
flag that threadless is coming of age. Until then, it is a concept
with some advantages, one big disadvantage (inability to raise the
bars without changing stems or more), and with absolutely no mass
design elegance ... at least in the mass market.

- rick

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Retro Bob said:

OK... having been out of the bicycle arena for about 25-30

years, I've

Quoted message said:

recently returned. I'm having trouble getting my hands around

some

Quoted message said:

changes, but I'm getting there. The one that has me the most

confused

Quoted message said:

is the new style stems vs. the quill design. What are the

advantages

Quoted message said:

to the new design ? I can;t see an overall weight advantage,

it's

Quoted message said:

not simpler, it's definitely not more elegant... ?

<snip>

A couple of off-the-wall advantages:

•"Threadless" type stems also make great tandem stoker stems.
Tandem
stoker stems used to always be a very hard-to-find part.

•If you want lots of hand positions, you can mount two stems
and two
handlebars on the same bike!

http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn

http://sheldonbrown.org/brown

Sheldon: Is there no end to the bizarre things you do to
bicycles? Have you built a fixie with a second stem/bar on the
seatpost, and a seatpost in the steerer -- so you can change
directions and steer with your butt? I guess you would have to
get a reverse thread for the cog, or a really good lock ring. --
Jay Beattie

"Retro Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS: threadless stems don't _have_ to be ugly. See

http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~sjackson/frame/audax_stem_painted.jpg

Beautiful work Suzy. You should copyright that before someone

steals

Quoted message said:

it.

Little late for that -- unless Suzy is also casting her own
parts. I think the SS cast parts are standard, and the only
builder input is brazing in the extension. Still very nice work,
and not cheap. So Suzy, did you use an airbrush for that, or the
touch-up gun again? You must have a lot of Imron components
sitting around by now! -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Sheldon: Is there no end to the bizarre things you do to bicycles? Have
you built a fixie with a second stem/bar on the seatpost, and a seatpost
in the steerer -- so you can change directions and steer with your butt?
I guess you would have to get a reverse thread for the cog, or a really
good lock ring. -- Jay Beattie

Of course, you just gave him ideas for the next bizarre thing to try.
Couple that with using front tandem cranks so the chain is on the other
side, flip the "rear" wheel around, and you're good to go.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon: Is there no end to the bizarre things you do to bicycles? Have
you built a fixie with a second stem/bar on the seatpost, and a seatpost
in the steerer -- so you can change directions and steer with your butt?
I guess you would have to get a reverse thread for the cog, or a really
good lock ring. -- Jay Beattie

David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Of course, you just gave him ideas for the next bizarre thing to try.
Couple that with using front tandem cranks so the chain is on the other
side, flip the "rear" wheel around, and you're good to go.

http://sheldonbrown.org/gunnar

nworB "tahT enoD erehT neeB" nodlehS
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

One caveat for short folks who like their bars low:

Steerer tubes are generally butted, so the hole narrows near the bottom.

If you insert a quill stem until the wedge bottoms out into the narrowed
section of the steerer, you may wind up "clamping" to a section with a
conical bore.

If this happens, the stem can slip up and suddenly become completly
detached, with no warning. This is not fun!

To prevent this, when installing a quill stem, if you feel resistance at
the bottom, raise it up a quarter of an inch or so to ensure that you're
clamping in the cylindrical part of the steerer's bore.

Thanks.

Sheldon Brown said:

Jay Beattie said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon: Is there no end to the bizarre things you do to bicycles? Have
you built a fixie with a second stem/bar on the seatpost, and a seatpost
in the steerer -- so you can change directions and steer with your
butt? I guess you would have to get a reverse thread for the cog,
or a really
good lock ring. -- Jay Beattie

David L. Johnson

Quoted message said:

Of course, you just gave him ideas for the next bizarre thing to
try. Couple that with using front tandem cranks so the chain is on
the other
side, flip the "rear" wheel around, and you're good to go.

http://sheldonbrown.org/gunnar

Is there any problem with the rear cog loosening?

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Additional advantages include:

Forgot the most important one. The clamp at the back of the steerer
tube provides a useful stop so when you hang your helmet over the bars,
it doesn't flop down onto the wheels.

Regards,

Suzy

PS: threadless stems don't _have_ to be ugly. See
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~sjackson/frame/audax_stem_painted.jpg

WOW! That is really a unique & beautiful stem.

I prefer the threadless stems in general, w/ 2 exceptions:
1. Lack of vert. adjustability.
2. For road bikes, ugly appearance & lack of aerodynamics. The older
forged aluminum stems such as TTT appeared to be more streamlined &
esthetically much more beautiful. Now I know that idea will get a lot
of hoots about streamlining & someone will point out that the world's
most streamlined stem vs. the least, in a 100 km time trial would save
0.0001 sec. I know all that but, somehow in my mind there is a
sensibility in having one of the forward parts of a bike in clean air
being as aero as reasonably possible.
To me one of the single greatest advantages of the new stems is the 2
or 4 bolt front plate design, particularly w/ drop bars. And even more
valuable when installing the newer super light drop bars that have no
margin for scratches.

Just my $0.02, John

On 24 Sep 2004 22:53:40 -0700, [email hidden] (John McGraw)

Quoted message said:

I prefer the threadless stems in general, w/ 2 exceptions:
1. Lack of vert. adjustability.

I keep hearing this but I don't understand it. If you keep the
steerer tube on your fork long, with a few spaces above and below the
stem, you can raise or lower it. With most stems you can flip it as
well.

JT

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On 24 Sep 2004 22:53:40 -0700, [email hidden] (John McGraw)

Quoted message said:

To me one of the single greatest advantages of the new stems is the 2
or 4 bolt front plate design, particularly w/ drop bars. And even more
valuable when installing the newer super light drop bars that have no
margin for scratches.

This is not a unique feature of threadless stems. Quill stems can,
and have, been made with removable faceplates.

- rick

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 24 Sep 2004 22:53:40 -0700, [email hidden] (John McGraw)

Quoted message said:

I prefer the threadless stems in general, w/ 2 exceptions:
1. Lack of vert. adjustability.

I keep hearing this but I don't understand it. If you keep the
steerer tube on your fork long, with a few spaces above and below the
stem, you can raise or lower it. With most stems you can flip it as
well.

Correction, if the shop does not chop your steerer to the absolute
minimum height before selling you the bike then at the expense of
readjusting your headset everytime you want to move the bars up/down
you can adjust the height. 99% of the bikes I see rolling out of
shops these days have the steerer cut so short that at most there is a
1cm spacer, hardly what I call adjustable. And with your method of
adjusting, the person has to do a H/S adjustment to move the bars.
With a quill I loosen one bolt, move the quill, tighten. Simple,
fast. I keep my quills greased so no corrosion, pitting, etc. which
was implicitly suggested as a universal problem with quills in one
message in this thread, and I use long quills so I have a lot of
adjustment room.

BTW, half my bikes (2/4) do have threadless. I see 0 advantage to the
design in my own use. I rarely adjust height, so no big disadvantage,
but I cannot adjust 1 of them as it fits in that 99% of bikes I see
sold that have the steerers cut to the absolute minimum. If you want
to hype the supposed adjustability of stems, perhaps you should start
lobbying shops to quit whacking the steerers so short, perhaps an
op-ed piece in BRN.

- rick

Rick Warner said:

Correction, if the shop does not chop your steerer to the absolute
minimum height before selling you the bike then at the expense of
readjusting your headset everytime you want to move the bars up/down
you can adjust the height.

I've been modifying my threadless setups by installing a clamp-on collar
on the steerer just above the headset, and tightening down its pinch bolt.

One of my bikes uses a seatpost collar for this, but we recently got a
closeout deal on some DiaTech clamps made for this purpose, which are
lighter and less bulky.

The collar holds the headset in adjustment, and I can then dispense with
spacers. It lets me easily adjust the height of the stem just by
loosening the stem's pinch bolt and sliding it up and down.

Sheldon "Adjustable" Brown
+------------------------------------------+
| To invent, you need a good imagination |
| and a pile of junk. --Thomas Edison |
+------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Retro Bob said:

I think I've got a new Sheldon project nailed down for him: a two
headed, three wheeled, racing/touring machine. It can have drop
bars, racing seat, and racing gear at one end, touring bars and
touring seat, touring gear at the other.

1. Combine two frames such that you create a three wheeled bike with
forks on both ends, two seat tubes, but meeting in one shared rear
wheel.

2. Install two seats in the normal fashion.

3. Install two drivetrains. The drive trains are normal in that
each end of the bike can either be multi-speed, fixed, etc. The only
interesting part is that you need a double headed drive hub that can
take a freewheel (or cassette) on each side.

Minor issues - locking the "trailing" front wheel into place when you
switch ends of the bike. Some sort of drop bolt will be needed to lock
the wheel in place. (Alternatively, a cable system could be rigged to
allow for steering both ends simultaneously.)

Or, you could rig it so that the middle ("rear"😉 wheel was a bit lower
than the line between the two end ("front"😉 wheels. The rider's weight
would hold down the end of the "bike" that was facing forward, and the
other wheel would be lifted off the ground...

Sheldon "Don't Hold Your Breath" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
| Curiosity has its own reason for existing. |
| --Albert Einstein |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Rick Warner said:

And with your method of
adjusting, the person has to do a H/S adjustment to move the bars.
With a quill I loosen one bolt, move the quill, tighten. Simple,
fast.

Yeah, it's quick.

But I think you have to do some measurement with your method. There is
none with mine. The headset "adjustment" with a threadless setup is
trivial -- certainly easier than headset adjustments on a threaded
setup.

I think your method is faster, but for me mine is easier as I don't
have to carry anything to do measurements.

JT

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