first report of the Cateye's new rear LED TL-LD1000

Steve Knight said:

http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443

I just got it today. It is about the size of a d battery. Bigger then I
expected. Man is it bright. I bet it rivals my xenon flasher. Even with the
lights on looking at it is hard on the eyes from arms length. Really easy to
change the batteries just twist one end and there you go. You have two rows of
lights and one button for each. You get blinking steady and running two speeds
on each one. So you can get away with just one set running at a time.
I think this is a better choice overall then the xenon. Far longer run times
and cheaper in the long run.

But unlike Cateye's own TL-BSAU100 light, if you get mown down from
behind, the lawyers will try and get your compensation reduced because
the TL-LD1000 is not technically legal in the UK (where I assume you
live, as the link is to Primera Sport) :-(

"Steve Knight" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443

[...]

30 quid for a rear light???

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

I have a lot of LED taillights, and settle for a pair mounted on the
top corners of my milk crate, steady beam, as giving the best
night protection. I've planted the bike far ahead and looked at a lot
of configurations.

The pair very much better than any single one.

It gives instant information that you are a vehicle, and the pair
gives depth perception.

Actually I use 4 lights, one above the other on each side, but the
perception is of two taillights. (Vista Total Eclipse below, Vista
Nebula above). The pairing gives protection against a battery running
out unannounced, and also reproduces the size of a car taillight.

Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

Adding more lights (say a Liddy light atop and in the middle) ruins
the conventional vehicle configuration and appears to confuse things
for the driver behind; it takes him longer to figure out what's going
on.

You don't need a brighter light once you're to that level of brightness;
what you need is clear marking of your motion and position. A
conventional placement of lights does that best.

All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
you add LED's.

One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
clothing.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Ron Hardin said:

Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

Actually there's an execption - I was walking the bike home with a flat and
it was useful to set the right hand lights flashing, as if a vehicle signalling
to pull over to the edge of the road. Instant recognition as stopped vehicle
on edge of road. Steady left taillight, flashing right.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Ron Hardin said:

I have a lot of LED taillights, and settle for a pair mounted on the
top corners of my milk crate, steady beam, as giving the best
night protection. I've planted the bike far ahead and looked at a lot
of configurations.

The pair very much better than any single one.

It gives instant information that you are a vehicle, and the pair
gives depth perception.

I don't see how the number of lights affects depth perception, that's
more an issue of the number of eyeballs...

I would be a bit nervous of such a rig lest the two relatively close
together red lights might be taken for a far-away car...

Quoted message said:

Actually I use 4 lights, one above the other on each side, but the
perception is of two taillights.

That probably gets around this issue.

Quoted message said:

(Vista Total Eclipse below, Vista
Nebula above). The pairing gives protection against a battery running
out unannounced, and also reproduces the size of a car taillight.

Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.

Quoted message said:

Adding more lights (say a Liddy light atop and in the middle) ruins
the conventional vehicle configuration and appears to confuse things
for the driver behind; it takes him longer to figure out what's going
on.

I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Many drivers are on mental
autopilot, automatically pigeonholing things they see as they drive.
Something out-of-the-ordinary can get their attention and wake them up a
bit.

Quoted message said:

All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
you add LED's.

The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

Quoted message said:

One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
clothing.

That's very true of the subject model, due to its optics.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/battery.html#tail

Sheldon "I Like It" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| What is good for you is what is good for you. |
| --Peter Chisholm |
+-------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.

My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

Which doesn't come from two eyes, but from taking an orientation from the
seen object. One eye works as well at a large distance.

Part of the motion that cues you to depth is ruined by flashing, in addition
to is being unfamiliar.

At _some_ point, getting attention is accomplished by the lights you have.
At that point, flashing is a detriment.

It's possible (I didn't test) that with a _single_ light you don't reach the
attention threshold very easily, and maybe flashing buys you something that
you need. With _two_ lights though, the attention comes from automatic
recognition of what two lights means (all the attention you want or need,
incidentally) and flashing just lessens competence at judgment on the part of the
driver.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
you add LED's.

The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

The effect I wanted to point out was that, as I laid out all my LED taillights at
once at night, and walked a distance away, there was no impression that there were
brighter and darker lights, just bigger and smaller ones; which corresponded to the
number of LED's.

More LED's is bigger, not brighter.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Quoted message said:

But unlike Cateye's own TL-BSAU100 light, if you get mown down from
behind, the lawyers will try and get your compensation reduced because
the TL-LD1000 is not technically legal in the UK (where I assume you
live, as the link is to Primera Sport) :-(

I am in the us.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Quoted message said:

My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

a red flashing blinkie is a pretty good indicator of a bike in the us.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Steve Knight said:

Quoted message said:

My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

a red flashing blinkie is a pretty good indicator of a bike in the us.

Not particularly. It might be a construction marker. Bicycle is pretty far down
on the list of what it might be. That is, the driver would guess construction
marker (why red? he would wonder) before he thought of bicycle.

Motorcycles don't use blinkies. Instead they have a pair of steady reds.

You're trying to communicate two things : that you're a vehicle, and your orientation
and motion.

As I say, with a _single_ light, you're pretty much out of luck. Maybe blinking
is the best deal there and hope for the best. But with two separated lights,
steady does the best communication, giving instant recognition of what you want
recognized.

Adding lights to the ``taillight pattern'' makes things go worse rather than better,
just because it ruins an instantly recognizeable pattern.

Flashing the lights not only does that too, unless it's in a turn pattern or an
emergency flasher pattern (both good when you're stopped for something), but
denies good motion and depth perception to the driver. Like the speed of separation
of the lights gives a closing rate.

Try it on yourself, if you have multiple lights, or even a single one. Part the
bike some dark night at the mailbox and drive past it.

The two questions are : 1. Did you have trouble noticing it? If so, you have
another problem. If not, 2. How quickly did you recognize it and what to do
about it?

The flashing lights fail #2.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

"Ron Hardin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

[...]

Quoted message said:

One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
clothing.

I saw a weird one the other night. I was driving down an ordinary suburban
arterial road which was otherwise well-enough lit that I had no trouble
seeing the cyclist at a decent distance, but he didn't have a red rear light
on his bike. Instead he had what seemed to be a 5 red LED unit on some kind
of collar around his neck. It wasn't all that bright, perhaps because LEDs
are directional and so were pointing in the "wrong" direction despite his
relatively upright position. It was also too high. I had to look up to see
it, there was no way it was going to grab my attention the way you'd think
he'd want it to.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Steve Knight said:

http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443

I just got it today. It is about the size of a d battery. Bigger then I
expected. Man is it bright. I bet it rivals my xenon flasher. Even with the
lights on looking at it is hard on the eyes from arms length. Really easy to
change the batteries just twist one end and there you go. You have two rows of
lights and one button for each. You get blinking steady and running two speeds
on each one. So you can get away with just one set running at a time.
I think this is a better choice overall then the xenon. Far longer run times
and cheaper in the long run.

I bought mine off of ebay as it is not available yet for the most part in the
us. Here is the fellow
http://search.ebay.com/TL-LD1000_Lights_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQfromZR2QQsacategoryZ22689QQsatitleZTLQ2dLD1000Q20QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbsQQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsotrZ2
Or just do a search for TL-LD1000
The box claims 100 hours. I think that would be with one set of lights
running. But it is so bright one is about all you need.

Ick. Four rows, with one switch per row? With my fat fingers, it'd
take me 15 minutes to get them all lit up! And if you only need one
row, why pay for all the others?

Pat

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:43 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.

My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

Which doesn't come from two eyes, but from taking an orientation from the
seen object. One eye works as well at a large distance.

Part of the motion that cues you to depth is ruined by flashing, in addition
to is being unfamiliar.

At _some_ point, getting attention is accomplished by the lights you have.
At that point, flashing is a detriment.

It's possible (I didn't test) that with a _single_ light you don't reach the
attention threshold very easily, and maybe flashing buys you something that
you need. With _two_ lights though, the attention comes from automatic
recognition of what two lights means (all the attention you want or need,
incidentally) and flashing just lessens competence at judgment on the part of the
driver.

Ron, I set my multi-modal real blinky to (how to describe?) not flash,
but do the side-to-side cascade effect. I think you know what I mean.
The lighted pattern forms bands which move from side to side. Some
LEDS remain on.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Ick. Four rows, with one switch per row? With my fat fingers, it'd
take me 15 minutes to get them all lit up! And if you only need one
row, why pay for all the others?

only two rows and two switches.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Quoted message said:

Not particularly. It might be a construction marker. Bicycle is pretty far down
on the list of what it might be. That is, the driver would guess construction
marker (why red? he would wonder) before he thought of bicycle.

I have never seen a red construction marker. red blinkies are pretty standard
fair on a bike and I think drivers know this.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Sheldon Brown said:

Ron Hardin said:

All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
you add LED's.

The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

Does that not imply low off-axis intensity? I don't want to light up the
ground or passing birds, of course, but I'd like my tail light to be
visible from the side...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Ron Hardin said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
you add LED's.

I said:

Quoted message said:

The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

David Damerell asked

Quoted message said:

Does that not imply low off-axis intensity? I don't want to light up the
ground or passing birds, of course, but I'd like my tail light to be
visible from the side...

This unit has 2 L.E.D.s on each side pointed at 90 degrees.

Sheldon "TANSTAAFL" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| If you haven’t yet discovered the novels |
| of Neal Stephenson, don’t wait! |
| Start with Snow Crash or Quicksilver |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Michael J. Klein said:

Ron, I set my multi-modal real blinky to (how to describe?) not flash,
but do the side-to-side cascade effect. I think you know what I mean.
The lighted pattern forms bands which move from side to side. Some
LEDS remain on.

Look at that from a half a block away. It is just "on" to a
driver. The subtleties are lost at even fifty feet.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:42:56 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This unit has 2 L.E.D.s on each side pointed at 90 degrees.

yep this is the reason I got it. saves having to use another source for that
job.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.