Bike lock alert - urgent

Tony Raven said:

There was a thread here recently about opening Kyptonite locks with a
Bic pen. It seems that the problem is more widespread than just
Kryptonite (who to their credit have responded fairly quickly to the
problem) At the moment it does not look wise to use any bike lock
that uses a cylindrical key. The technique is now widely enough
known that if it can be opened there is a good chance it will be and
it takes as little time and is as inconspicuous as using the key
itself.

Which is a bummer because all my locks are cylindrical keys and I'm
going to have to find out whether they are vulnerable or not before I
trust them again.

It is a bummer but fortunately it's not that easy to find a pen or tube of
just the right diameter to fit all or certain "cylindrical" locks,
including some Kryptonites.

~PB

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:54:03 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There was a thread here recently about opening Kyptonite locks with a
Bic pen. It seems that the problem is more widespread than just
Kryptonite (who to their credit have responded fairly quickly to the
problem) At the moment it does not look wise to use any bike lock that
uses a cylindrical key. The technique is now widely enough known that
if it can be opened there is a good chance it will be and it takes as
little time and is as inconspicuous as using the key itself.

Which is a bummer because all my locks are cylindrical keys and I'm
going to have to find out whether they are vulnerable or not before I
trust them again.

It depends on the quality of the lock in question. It's not that
cylinder locks themselves are [censored] and vulnerable to biro's, it's
specifically cheap and nasty cylinder locks. Good quality mechanisms
will withstand this kind of attack with ease. The problem is that we
can't really tell by looking at our D locks which camp they fall into.

The equipment to open even good quality cylinder locks is available to
anyone from numerous online suppliers. It appears that 60 quid buys a
professional locksmith quality cylinder lock pick. I've got a couple
of video clips here showing them in use and they really are quite
impressive (and frightening).

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.
--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

Call me Bob said:

It depends on the quality of the lock in question. It's not that
cylinder locks themselves are [censored] and vulnerable to biro's, it's
specifically cheap and nasty cylinder locks. Good quality mechanisms
will withstand this kind of attack with ease. The problem is that we
can't really tell by looking at our D locks which camp they fall into.

So are all cylinder bike locks cheap and nasty cylinder locks or can you
suggest some with cylinder locks that are immune to this problem?

Tony

Pete Biggs said:

It is a bummer but fortunately it's not that easy to find a pen or tube of
just the right diameter to fit all or certain "cylindrical" locks,
including some Kryptonites.

I wouldn't trust my luck to a bike thief not being able to find the
right size biro tube.

Tony

"Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It depends on the quality of the lock in question. It's not that
cylinder locks themselves are [censored] and vulnerable to biro's, it's
specifically cheap and nasty cylinder locks.

Can't remember Kryptonite locks being particularly cheap :-)

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.
I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.
--
Peter Grange

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There was a thread here recently about opening Kyptonite locks with a Bic
pen. It seems that the problem is more widespread than just Kryptonite
(who to their credit have responded fairly quickly to the problem) At the
moment it does not look wise to use any bike lock that uses a cylindrical
key.....

I hope my 17 year old oxford sentinel lock is safe, as it has a cyclindrical
lock!

Peter Grange said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.
I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.

Why not just tie it up with string? Surely having to undo the knot will
make them move on to the next bike and scissors are as hard to find as
biro tubes.

Personally I am more interested in retaining my bike, not in going
through all the hassles with an insurance company to replace a bike I
have shared journeys with and customised to suit me. YMMV.

Tony

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Grange said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.
I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.

Why not just tie it up with string? Surely having to undo the knot will
make them move on to the next bike and scissors are as hard to find as
biro tubes.

Personally I am more interested in retaining my bike, not in going through
all the hassles with an insurance company to replace a bike I have shared
journeys with and customised to suit me. YMMV.

The bic thing is a massive problem which has actually been known for some
time. However it has been brought to the attention of all by the beauty of
the communication age. I still use my Kryptonite, but still also use a
second lock flex lock. I also use the old age technique of locking in a
secure place and never leaving it out at night.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven <junk@raven-
family.com> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Grange said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.
I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.

Why not just tie it up with string? Surely having to undo the knot will
make them move on to the next bike and scissors are as hard to find as
biro tubes.

mainly because the insurance company won't pay out on string ;-)

Quoted message said:

Personally I am more interested in retaining my bike, not in going
through all the hassles with an insurance company to replace a bike I
have shared journeys with and customised to suit me. YMMV.

With all our treasured possessions we do our best to protect them by
locking them up. A lock or a burglar alarm on the house may persuade the
burglar to go next door, but really it's the best we can hope for. If
the criminal _really_ wants something and it's worth his/her while
he/she will have it.

Quoted message said:

Tony

--
Peter Grange

Tony Raven said:

Quoted message said:

It is a bummer but fortunately it's not that easy to find a pen or
tube of just the right diameter to fit all or certain "cylindrical"
locks, including some Kryptonites.

I wouldn't trust my luck to a bike thief not being able to find the
right size biro tube.

We do trust our luck to bike theives not being able to bust/pick our locks
in all sorts of ways. I've not managed to find a pen that fits my (old)
Kryptonite lock yet. I do intend to replace the lock with a different
type but I am still using it in the meantime, for short stays at least.
I'm confident that very few people have the equipment + inclination to
pick it.

At first I was worried that every Tom, [censored] and Harry walking along the
street could nick my bike using the pens they have on them, but that's
just not the case.

~PB

Adrian Boliston said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There was a thread here recently about opening Kyptonite locks with a Bic
pen. It seems that the problem is more widespread than just Kryptonite
(who to their credit have responded fairly quickly to the problem) At the
moment it does not look wise to use any bike lock that uses a cylindrical
key.....

I hope my 17 year old oxford sentinel lock is safe, as it has a cyclindrical
lock!

I wouldn't bet on it. The lock mechanism with the problem has been
around for 30 years and the problem was apparently aired on the Today
programme 12 years ago -
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4696

Tony

Peter Grange said:

With all our treasured possessions we do our best to protect them by
locking them up. A lock or a burglar alarm on the house may persuade the
burglar to go next door, but really it's the best we can hope for. If
the criminal _really_ wants something and it's worth his/her while
he/she will have it.

True, but if you have a front door lock that can be opened in a jiffy
with a credit card how much of a deterrent do you think that really is?
Its probably even an invitation because its so easy to open, why even
bother to go next door and see what lock they have.

Its not as if your own experience with an insurance replacement was
hassle free. How do you think they would react if they knew it was
locked with a lock that had been widely publicised as easily defeatable?

Curious. When folks post here in anguish at having their beloved bikes
stolen there's a mass chorus of "cut off the thieves goolies and burn
the body". When the locks that secure them are shown to be vulnerable
to being opened in a few seconds with a piece of plastic tubing the
attitude seems to be that its not really a problem.

Tony

Quoted message said:

The bic thing is a massive problem which has actually been known for some
time. However it has been brought to the attention of all by the beauty of
the communication age. I still use my Kryptonite, but still also use a
second lock flex lock. I also use the old age technique of locking in a
secure place and never leaving it out at night.

I would say diversity is the answer. Use several locks of different
type, and providing your bike is not an Ex-Works model, chances are
the thieves will move to an easier target. They will still get it
given more than one opportunity though and going tooled-up
specifically for your pride-n-joy.´
Dave

Tony Raven said:

Adrian Boliston said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There was a thread here recently about opening Kyptonite locks with a Bic
pen. It seems that the problem is more widespread than just Kryptonite
(who to their credit have responded fairly quickly to the problem) At the
moment it does not look wise to use any bike lock that uses a cylindrical
key.....

I hope my 17 year old oxford sentinel lock is safe, as it has a cyclindrical
lock!

I wouldn't bet on it. The lock mechanism with the problem has been
around for 30 years and the problem was apparently aired on the Today
programme 12 years ago -
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4696

But the point persumably is that the lock has been unbroken in use for
17 years. If Adrian had left his bike unlocked all that time, how many
bikes do you think would have been stolen in that time? Ergo, the
lock has been doing its job.

No lock is ever perfect. If they truly could be opened with any old
bit of plastic, and that technique was used by every tom [censored] and
burglar bill on the manor, we'd have nearly as many locked bikes stolen
as unlocked bikes. Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. We do get
occasional reports here about bikes being stolen. How many of them
have mentioned the magically unlocked lock being left behind?

--
Trevor Barton

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:59:16 GMT, "Andy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It depends on the quality of the lock in question. It's not that
cylinder locks themselves are [censored] and vulnerable to biro's, it's
specifically cheap and nasty cylinder locks.

Quoted message said:

Can't remember Kryptonite locks being particularly cheap :-)

No, but me neither, but it seems that although the price on the tag
wasn't cheap, the locks themselves were 🙁
--

"Bob"

'The people have spoken, the [censored]'

Email address is spam trapped.
To reply directly remove the beverage.

In article said:

"Call me Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It depends on the quality of the lock in question. It's not that
cylinder locks themselves are [censored] and vulnerable to biro's, it's
specifically cheap and nasty cylinder locks.

Can't remember Kryptonite locks being particularly cheap :-)

That's because you don't know how much the mechanisms cost Kryptonite
to make (or buy in). A lock with this problem is cheaper to make than
one that doesn't have it.
In a fair market, that would be reflected in the retail price.
"First, let us assume the existence of a can opener" said the economist.

Peter Grange said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Quoted message said:

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.

Quoted message said:

I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.

You don't have to return bits of the busted lock to collect the
insurance?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Malcolm
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Grange said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Call me Bob
<[email hidden]> writes
(stuff about vulnerability of locks snipped)

Quoted message said:

All this hoo-har should just remind us that whatever we lock our bikes
up with, they are never completely safe.

Quoted message said:

Too right, no lock is invulnerable. The presence of a lock might just
make the potential thief move on to the next bike, but if the thief
wants it badly enough he'll get it.

Quoted message said:

I take a very simple attitude: if it's locked it's insured, if it's not
locked it's not.

You don't have to return bits of the busted lock to collect the
insurance?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

I don't know, I was just going by the wording in the insurance document,
to the effect that if it's left unattended in a public place it must be
locked. No specification of the lock to be used. I guess the ins co
would be hard pressed to prove one way or the other. I suppose the thief
could have opened the lock with a key, or cracked the combination, and
nicked the lock too.

--
Peter Grange