Panaracer tire sizing- tire sizing standards?

http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

--Blair
"Warning: it will [censored] with your head."

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I know that tire markings and actual sizes vary. Does anyone know why
Panaracer does this? Are they working to various standards which lead
to different numbers? Am I misinterpreting the '34/35/37' as a width
when it actually means something else? Anyone know *how* tire
dimensions are actually measured? Are there specific
international/Japanese/German/Dutch/French/US/Thai/etc standards for
deriving these numbers? Thanks.

Brands do indeed vary widely (wildly?). Panaracer tends to
be skinnier for a given 'size' than most other brands.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 23:00:19 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I know that tire markings and actual sizes vary. Does anyone know why
Panaracer does this? Are they working to various standards which lead
to different numbers? Am I misinterpreting the '34/35/37' as a width
when it actually means something else? Anyone know *how* tire
dimensions are actually measured? Are there specific
international/Japanese/German/Dutch/French/US/Thai/etc standards for
deriving these numbers? Thanks.

Brands do indeed vary widely (wildly?). Panaracer tends to
be skinnier for a given 'size' than most other brands.

I'm wondering how companies justify these numbers, what practices lead
to the numbers. And I am certainly lost as to how the same company can
have three different width numbers for the exact same tire. Like here-
their web site very clearly says that the 700x32 is 28mm wide-

http://www.panaracer.com/05lineup/urban/eurban_1.html#ptg

And then on the 700x35 (which is 34mm wide) is molded 37-622, which
means to my simple brain means that it is 37mm wide.

I remember reading something on the Rivendell site about how
Panaracer, who makes the RollyPolly and RuffyTuffy for them, had to
put certain sizes on the tires because of some Japanese law or
standard, even though Rivendell made clear that the tires were
skinnier. Does anyone know where I can see this standard or any
description of the process for determining the number?

Blair P. Houghton said:

http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

--Blair
"Warning: it will [censored] with your head."

Thanks. I've been through that info and my head is no more messed up
than before 🙂

I'm really looking for more technical information, any links or
descriptions of the methods used to come up with the numbers,
specifically the width numbers. I can find rough descriptions, but I
am baffled how one tire from one company can have three different
widths based on the company's own web information and labeling.

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I know that tire markings and actual sizes vary. Does anyone know why
Panaracer does this? Are they working to various standards which lead
to different numbers?

No. My guess is that they made a mistake (accidentally or deliberately)
and are now trying to make up for it... by confusing the hell out of us!

The fact is that Pasela tyres are actually about one size narrower than
the advertised size and tyres from other brands of the same advertised
size, so a 35 is really more like a 32, etc.

Quoted message said:

Am I misinterpreting the '34/35/37' as a width
when it actually means something else? Anyone know *how* tire
dimensions are actually measured? Are there specific
international/Japanese/German/Dutch/French/US/Thai/etc standards for
deriving these numbers? Thanks.

It should be just one number for the width. Panaracer is in a world of
its own. The number is supposed to be the real width (or height: normally
about the same thing) in mm. Where precisely it's measured from, I
couldn't tell you.

~PB

Dan Daniel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I remember reading something on the Rivendell site about how
Panaracer, who makes the RollyPolly and RuffyTuffy for them, had to
put certain sizes on the tires because of some Japanese law or
standard, even though Rivendell made clear that the tires were
skinnier. Does anyone know where I can see this standard or any
description of the process for determining the number?

IIRC, the ISO/ETRTO method of determining tire width is by measuring
the width of the tire casing, flattened out, from bead to bead, then
dividing by 2.5 . This *should* give consistent answers from tire to
tire and company to company. Apparently this standard is not being
adhered to.

My latest Rivendell flyer notes that the Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apple
actually measures 38mm wide when mounted on a rim (CR-18?). *Sigh*.

Jeff

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I know that tire markings and actual sizes vary. Does anyone know why
Panaracer does this? Are they working to various standards which lead
to different numbers? Am I misinterpreting the '34/35/37' as a width
when it actually means something else? Anyone know *how* tire
dimensions are actually measured? Are there specific
international/Japanese/German/Dutch/French/US/Thai/etc standards for
deriving these numbers? Thanks.

My Specialized tyres are labelled 700 x 25c but the embossing says
622-20. They *are* 20mm tyres.

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I have a similar concern. My girfriend and I are riding the length of
the Katy Trail later this month. We're planning on using our touring
bikes. I just installed a set of Michelin Tracer 700 x 32s on my bike.
Julie has Conti 700 x 28s (can't recall the model just now) and thinks
wider tires would be better for the crushed limestone surface.

The only 700 x 32s I've found locally are Panaracers. Would these be
the same width at the Contis she already has? Would she just be
wasting her money?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

John Everett said:

I have a similar concern. My girfriend and I are riding the length of
the Katy Trail later this month. We're planning on using our touring
bikes. I just installed a set of Michelin Tracer 700 x 32s on my bike.
Julie has Conti 700 x 28s (can't recall the model just now) and thinks
wider tires would be better for the crushed limestone surface.

The only 700 x 32s I've found locally are Panaracers. Would these be
the same width at the Contis she already has?

Most likely just a little bit wider. Panaracer Pasela 32 measures 29mm on
Mavic A719 (T520) rim. Continental Ultra Gatorskin 28 is actually about
27mm on MA2.

How about giving 35's a try? (Pasela = 31mm on MA3). Maybe you could find
someone to give/sell them to if they didn't suit. Frame/fender clearance
will probably be more of a factor than rim compatibilty (allow a safe
margin). Sometimes a wider tyre can be fitted to the front -- not a bad
way round anyway. I suggest buying just one first for that reason: see
which if any wheels it suits. Have fun :-)

~PB

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Daniel <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I remember reading something on the Rivendell site about how
Panaracer, who makes the RollyPolly and RuffyTuffy for them, had to
put certain sizes on the tires because of some Japanese law or
standard, even though Rivendell made clear that the tires were
skinnier. Does anyone know where I can see this standard or any
description of the process for determining the number?

IIRC, the ISO/ETRTO method of determining tire width is by measuring
the width of the tire casing, flattened out, from bead to bead, then
dividing by 2.5 . This *should* give consistent answers from tire to
tire and company to company. Apparently this standard is not being
adhered to.

My latest Rivendell flyer notes that the Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apple
actually measures 38mm wide when mounted on a rim (CR-18?). *Sigh*.

On possible reason for the difference in tire sizing is weight or the lowest
weight in its size. For example, if company A advertises its *true* 700x25,
one that weighs between 220-230grams , e.g., that actually measures between
24-26mm wide, as a 700x28, and every other company is listing a *true*
700x28 which weighs more, like 250-280 grams, company A could arguably claim
its 700x28 tire is the lightest. Deceptive?

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IIRC, the ISO/ETRTO method of determining tire width is by measuring
the width of the tire casing, flattened out, from bead to bead, then
dividing by 2.5 . This *should* give consistent answers from tire to
tire and company to company. Apparently this standard is not being
adhered to.

My latest Rivendell flyer notes that the Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apple
actually measures 38mm wide when mounted on a rim (CR-18?). *Sigh*.

That doesn't sound right. I use Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apples on my
MTB/Commuter bike, with Salsa Delgado Cross rims.

I measured the tires with calipers recently, since I'm still on a quest for
fenders on this bike. Inflated to 65 psi (they're rated to 70 psi max),
they measure 47.5mm at the widest part of the bulge. So where are they
getting that 38mm number? Were they running a lower inflation pressure?

--
Mike Barrs

John Everett said:

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

I have a similar concern. My girfriend and I are riding the length of
the Katy Trail later this month. We're planning on using our touring
bikes. I just installed a set of Michelin Tracer 700 x 32s on my bike.
Julie has Conti 700 x 28s (can't recall the model just now) and thinks
wider tires would be better for the crushed limestone surface.

The only 700 x 32s I've found locally are Panaracers. Would these be
the same width at the Contis she already has? Would she just be
wasting her money?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

What I can tell you is that a Panaracer 700x32 measures 28mm on a
Super Champion rim. The Panaracer 700x35 measures a touch less than
31mm a day after installation (same rims). I expect that they will
expand just a touch; the 32s started at a touch over 26mm and settled
down to 28 after a while (it was three weeks before I measured again).

Dan Daniel said:

I'm really looking for more technical information, any links or
descriptions of the methods used to come up with the numbers,
specifically the width numbers. I can find rough descriptions, but I
am baffled how one tire from one company can have three different
widths based on the company's own web information and labeling.

I tend to believe the number that's actually molded into
the rubber.

You can mis-paint the label, but it's hard to mistake the
engraving in the mold.

--Blair
"Said the guy who molded the Titanic..."

Blair P. Houghton said:

Dan Daniel said:

I'm really looking for more technical information, any links or
descriptions of the methods used to come up with the numbers,
specifically the width numbers. I can find rough descriptions, but I
am baffled how one tire from one company can have three different
widths based on the company's own web information and labeling.

I tend to believe the number that's actually molded into
the rubber.

You can mis-paint the label, but it's hard to mistake the
engraving in the mold.

--Blair
"Said the guy who molded the Titanic..."

Then they have some *real* problems using rulers at Panaracer. After a
day at full pressure, the tire is less than 31mm wide. Maybe it'll
stretch out to 33-34? So, web site- 34, label-35, molding- 37, actual
tire- 31....

Pete Biggs said:

John Everett said:

I have a similar concern. My girfriend and I are riding the length of
the Katy Trail later this month. We're planning on using our touring
bikes. I just installed a set of Michelin Tracer 700 x 32s on my bike.
Julie has Conti 700 x 28s (can't recall the model just now) and thinks
wider tires would be better for the crushed limestone surface.

The only 700 x 32s I've found locally are Panaracers. Would these be
the same width at the Contis she already has?

Most likely just a little bit wider. Panaracer Pasela 32 measures 29mm on
Mavic A719 (T520) rim. Continental Ultra Gatorskin 28 is actually about
27mm on MA2.

How about giving 35's a try? (Pasela = 31mm on MA3). Maybe you could find
someone to give/sell them to if they didn't suit. Frame/fender clearance
will probably be more of a factor than rim compatibilty (allow a safe
margin). Sometimes a wider tyre can be fitted to the front -- not a bad
way round anyway. I suggest buying just one first for that reason: see
which if any wheels it suits. Have fun :-)

It's weird how much things vary. Last time we rode together I tried my
wheels with the Michelin Tracers (see above) on Julie's bike (Trek
520) to make sure there was sufficient clearance for 700 x 32s. In
response to some of the postings in this thread, I just now measured
my 700 x 32 Tracers. Note that these are marked both 32 - 622 and 700
x 32C. Actual width mounted on Alex AL-DA 16 rims is 35mm!

For what it's worth (since the Alex isn't all that popular a rim) the
outside width of the rim section is 22mm.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Dan Daniel said:

Does anyone understand what is going on with tire sizing? I just
installed some Pasela TGs that are sold as 700x35. If you go to the
Panaracer website, the width of the 700x35 tire is listed as 34mm (the
700x32 is listed as 28mm in width!). On the tire itself, the printed
label says 700x35. But molded into the tire is '37-622'

So Panaracer itself lists three different 'widths' for the same tire.

Some recently purchased Pasela TGs sent me down the same road. Though
it is off-topic, I would add that these tires are driving me mad.

The reason I was on the Panaracer site checking the specs of the Pasela
TGs at all is that I cannot seem to get the things to seat properly. I
have never had problems even close to the problems I have had with these
tires. The first blowout I attributed to my inattention. But even
paying attention (but admittedly with some frustration), I have
experienced another blowout and great difficulty getting tubes in the
tires without pinching the tubes.

Chris Hedges said:

The first blowout I attributed to my inattention. But even
paying attention (but admittedly with some frustration), I have
experienced another blowout and great difficulty getting tubes in the
tires without pinching the tubes.

Make that three blowouts. . . . Boy, am I a stubborn idiot. BTW, did
you notice that there is no max. inflation number on these tires?

Chris Hedges <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Chris Hedges said:

The first blowout I attributed to my inattention. But even
paying attention (but admittedly with some frustration), I have
experienced another blowout and great difficulty getting tubes in the
tires without pinching the tubes.

Make that three blowouts. . . . Boy, am I a stubborn idiot. BTW, did
you notice that there is no max. inflation number on these tires?

I had no problem running my 700 x 32 Pasela at 115 psi- which is
probably over the top, but what the heck...

You need to supply more info about your blowouts- what kind of rim,
tube, rimstrip you're using and whether previous tires were easy or
tough to seat on this rim. Also, could you describe the technique
you're using for removing & installing the tire?

If I had several blowouts with the same tire, I'd start looking really
closely at the bead. It could be that it was defective or damaged on
initial installation- enough to be a problem, not enough to be
obvious. I had a Specialized tire that did that to me- frustrating and
embarassing.

Jeff

foldedpath <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My latest Rivendell flyer notes that the Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apple
actually measures 38mm wide when mounted on a rim (CR-18?). *Sigh*.

That doesn't sound right. I use Schwalbe 700 x 50 Big Apples on my
MTB/Commuter bike, with Salsa Delgado Cross rims.

I measured the tires with calipers recently, since I'm still on a quest for
fenders on this bike. Inflated to 65 psi (they're rated to 70 psi max),
they measure 47.5mm at the widest part of the bulge. So where are they
getting that 38mm number? Were they running a lower inflation pressure?

I can't see a tire stretching *that* much. If fact, tires don't
stretch much at all. Perhaps they got a shipment of mismarked tires-
it wouldn't be a the first time.

Jeff