Tricks for keeping cadence?

Badger_South wrote:
:: I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
:: cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
:: tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
:: below 65 or 70 (or lower).

why not just look at your cadence computer?

::
:: I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
:: forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
:: again.

you count while riding? that must be painful. someone might run into you
while you're concentrating on counting reps.

::
:: Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
:: to go?

Well, if it's good enough for Lance.....

I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
:: conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
:: during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
:: hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing style.

Bad habits are hard to change....

::
:: I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
:: that's next.
::
:: -B

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:10:56 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger_South wrote:
:: I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
:: cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
:: tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
:: below 65 or 70 (or lower).

why not just look at your cadence computer?

::
:: I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
:: forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
:: again.

you count while riding? that must be painful. someone might run into you
while you're concentrating on counting reps.

Ok, Mr Advanced Rider, lol. I'm talking about keeping up cadence on
sections where you're breathing quite forcefully and about to rep out in
38x15 at 55rpm, seated. Don't you ride near current max sections where
you're about to see stars until you reach the flats or more gentle slope?

Quoted message said:

I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
:: conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
:: during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
:: hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing style.

Bad habits are hard to change....

It's not so much that it's a habit, but perhaps similar to
changing/improving something fundamental in your form, such as stride
length in jogging. (something that may not even be adviseable).

IOW, it seems like -such- a good idea, yet are many pros trying to train
that way? If not, why not?

-B

Badger South said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
below 65 or 70 (or lower).

Quoted message said:

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a lower
and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the ET.

Quoted message said:

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing
style.

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some have
claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of posters
to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't take oft
repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here enough to
become absolute among the faithful.

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come naturally
if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you ride with
someone who's a bit faster.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

This may appear to be an idiocyncracy, so let's keep it between us, OK.
When on long rides I go against the wind or up moderate hills, I sometimes
"play machine", which is a non intellecutal meditative activity. Body and
soul turns into: Movement. I breathe out on every seventh pedal stroke,
which means every other time with my left and right leg. And when breathing
out on 7, I "hammer" down the pedal, and the following six strokes are
practically just as fast, but with less effort. I shift my gear to find
the cadence, that allows "the hammer feeling" on every seventh stroke and
this gives me a feeling of at "natural" cadence.
To the body it feels natural to hold your breath or to breathe out when you
maximize effort (sprinting, hitting, jumping or lifting af very heavy load)
.. This jump, throw, kick, or hit function supplies "[censored] sapiens" with a
concentrated strength, that was necessary for survival (through escape or
attack) in the jungle. Sprining on every seventh stroke, does not produce
lactate acid, so I can go on for very long with a natural fast cadence.
When I start to "play machine", speed increases about 5 %, I've noticed,
staying just below my lactate treshold. My FlightDeck computer also
provides me with the virtual cadence, but I like the idea of getting the
feel of the right natural cadence, and though it might all be a product of
my imagination (which is good enough for me) it might also someday prove be
scientifically based, that this method results in the most efficient long
time cadence.

Ivar of Denmark
(P.S: It doesn't necessarily take a lot of my precious RAM to keep counting
to seven. It's just like picking up the rythm of "The Dave Brubeck Quartet"
in the back of my head.)

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence
high
going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count reps
when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less forceful
breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it again.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way to go?
I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy conservation,
but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros during climbs. I'm
thinking maybe it's something that's just very hard to change once you've
developed your riding, and climbing style.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
that's next.

-B

Quoted message said:

Badger South said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
below 65 or 70 (or lower).

Quoted message said:

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a lower
and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the ET.

OK, boss. I'll try that. Sometimes the 'obvious' isn't that apparent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing
style.

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some have
claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of posters
to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't take oft
repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here enough to
become absolute among the faithful.

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades.

Hmm. Is it a syndrome or a phase? Carmichael talks about it...

Quoted message said:

I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

So you're a fan of the side-to-side full on body english method?

Quoted message said:

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come naturally
if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you ride with
someone who's a bit faster.

I worry about form b/c as a beginner, I'm looking for all the 'edge' I can
get, and anyway it's something to do while suffering.

Thx.

-B

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Ivar Hesselager said:

This may appear to be an idiocyncracy, so let's keep it between us, OK.
When on long rides I go against the wind or up moderate hills, I sometimes
"play machine", which is a non intellecutal meditative activity. Body and
soul turns into: Movement. I breathe out on every seventh pedal stroke,
which means every other time with my left and right leg. And when breathing
out on 7, I "hammer" down the pedal, and the following six strokes are
practically just as fast, but with less effort. I shift my gear to find
the cadence, that allows "the hammer feeling" on every seventh stroke and
this gives me a feeling of at "natural" cadence.
To the body it feels natural to hold your breath or to breathe out when you
maximize effort (sprinting, hitting, jumping or lifting af very heavy load)

Thanks. I'll try that, and some variations. This is what I'm talking about.

Quoted message said:

. This jump, throw, kick, or hit function supplies "[censored] sapiens" with a
concentrated strength, that was necessary for survival (through escape or
attack) in the jungle. Sprining on every seventh stroke, does not produce
lactate acid, so I can go on for very long with a natural fast cadence.
When I start to "play machine", speed increases about 5 %, I've noticed,
staying just below my lactate treshold. My FlightDeck computer also
provides me with the virtual cadence, but I like the idea of getting the
feel of the right natural cadence, and though it might all be a product of
my imagination (which is good enough for me) it might also someday prove be
scientifically based, that this method results in the most efficient long
time cadence.

Ivar of Denmark
(P.S: It doesn't necessarily take a lot of my precious RAM to keep counting
to seven. It's just like picking up the rythm of "The Dave Brubeck Quartet"
in the back of my head.)

Yeah, as the spots start to appear the available RAM seems to decrease, so
that's good.

-B

Quoted message said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence
high
going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count reps
when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less forceful
breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it again.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way to go?
I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy conservation,
but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros during climbs. I'm
thinking maybe it's something that's just very hard to change once you've
developed your riding, and climbing style.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
that's next.

-B

Badger South said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum
a tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to
sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a
lower and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the
ET.

Quoted message said:

OK, boss. I'll try that. Sometimes the 'obvious' isn't that apparent.

The obvious often gets clouded by hearing too much from people that
believe bicycling is all about technique rather than strength and
endurance. We see endless discussions on style that increases speed.
I've never seen any of this in use by folks who get more than 50 miles
from home. It's mostly practiced on the local "look at me" routes,
aka Foothill Expressway (Los Altos) around here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the
way to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to
energy conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in
the pros during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's
just very hard to change once you've developed your riding, and
climbing style.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some
have claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of
posters to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't
take oft repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here
enough to become absolute among the faithful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish
among beginners and only on short grades.

Quoted message said:

Hmm. Is it a syndrome or a phase? Carmichael talks about it...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have ridden many long climbs in the Alps and never seen anyone
ride like that near the top although some riders start out that
way.

Quoted message said:

So you're a fan of the side-to-side full on body english method?

I didn't say that. That style was best don by Roger Millar on hill
climbs. Ride what works for you, not what "they" do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come
naturally if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you
ride with someone who's a bit faster.

Quoted message said:

I worry about form b/c as a beginner, I'm looking for all the 'edge'
I can get, and anyway it's something to do while suffering.

There is not edge in form, only in fitness and endurance. Don't
suffer. You won't get any merit badges for it and it isn't any fun.
Fun is going places and seeing things:

http://tinyurl.com/adls

also see Tour of the Alps 2004:

rec.bicycles.rides

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Badger_South <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence high
going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count reps
when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

Try cutting off a few truckers and they chase you up the hill.

Badger_South said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence high
going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count reps
when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I think the best way to get your cadence up on the hills is to work
on high cadence on the flats. Once you're comfortable with
maintaining a cadence without thinking about it, doing it on the
hills will become second nature.

If the going gets tough and you find your cadence dropping below
where you want it to be, shift down. If you're out of gears, lower
ones can be had from bike shops.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

As it relates to climbing, I'll bow to your much greater experience but when
you call it a "fetish" it seems like you are saying that it's a mistake to
consciously work toward a "quiet upper body" on the flats. Do you mean that?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Badger_South said:

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way to go?

Well, most of the experts seem to be leaning that way. Here's a
brief summary of why spinning is beneficial:

"Why is it better to spin (80 - 100 rpm), rather than grind (< 80
rpm)? Spinning requires less force per revolution, builds up less
lactate, requires less oxygen consumption, and reduces neuromuscular
fatigue. This is why it is beneficial in racing, however grinding
does have its place in training when you want to specifically target
improving muscle force production."
http://www.cyclingnz.com/science.phtml?n=44

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Bob Hubt said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish
among beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long
climbs in the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the
top although some riders start out that way.

Quoted message said:

As it relates to climbing, I'll bow to your much greater experience
but when you call it a "fetish" it seems like you are saying that
it's a mistake to consciously work toward a "quiet upper body" on
the flats. Do you mean that?

The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity. Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard. That goes for flats or on hills sitting
or standing where the equivalent is not leaning the bicycle, an even
more contrived style that is possible when riding lower gears than
optimal.

I sense that we are getting close to discussing "ankling", forbid.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
to go?

Quoted message said:

Well, most of the experts seem to be leaning that way. Here's a
brief summary of why spinning is beneficial:

Quoted message said:

"Why is it better to spin (80 - 100 rpm), rather than grind (< 80
rpm)? Spinning requires less force per revolution, builds up less
lactate, requires less oxygen consumption, and reduces neuromuscular
fatigue. This is why it is beneficial in racing, however grinding
does have its place in training when you want to specifically target
improving muscle force production."

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnz.com/science.phtml?n=44

I see no scientific data or proof of this hypothesis and have watches
many great bicycle professionals from the 1960's to present win races
using a wide range of cadences for their successes. I spent many
years riding the low cadences that more recent riders denigrate as
"painful grinding" and sure to ruin my knees. How soon should I
expect that and why do they care? Unfortunately with advancing years
I can no longer outrun these comments on climbs as I formerly did,
leaving those giving me advice behind in their favorite cadence in the
flats as well as on long climbs.

I watched Roger Millar and Andy Hampsten ride low cadences (60's) in
the TdS on hill climbs and watched Charley Gaul, Massignan, Pambianco,
and Rik van Looy on the Stelvio. None were turnng more than 60rpm.

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=45

If you believe this is to your advantage, I don't want to dissuade
you, but advising new riders to do so is folly. They should ride hill
climbs and optimize their ET. In that process the ideal cadence will
arrive naturally.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Badger South writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

A little while ago there was this Tour dee France race that went up a hill
called the Alp du Wheeze and this German fellow Jan Ullrich, came in second
place going up it riding just like you said nobody rode.

Then again, that was Jan Ullrich and not someone that normal people should hope
to emulate. Actually it was an amazing display of power and torque even for a
pro.

Quoted message said:

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come naturally
if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you ride with
someone who's a bit faster.

A lot of truth to that. There are bad/stupid habits to be avoided, but first get
strong then worry about looking like you've got style.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity. Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard. That goes for flats or on hills sitting
or standing where the equivalent is not leaning the bicycle, an even
more contrived style that is possible when riding lower gears than
optimal.

I sense that we are getting close to discussing "ankling", forbid.

You can relax Jobst, we aren't even approaching any "ankling" discussion. My
question was based, not on riding at or near maximum effort, on riding
comfortably in the 20 to 24 mph range. Personally, in those circumstances I've
found a "quiet upper body" approach works well in reducing fatigue. It felt
unnatural when I first started to consciously try to achieve that about 8 or 9
years ago but the longer I worked at it, the more relaxed it felt. I'd compare
it to the military posture of "standing attention". That is an extremely
uncomfortable body position at first but once one's muscles "learn" the pose it
actually seems easier on muscles, especially back muscles, than a casual
slouching posture.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob Hunt said:

Quoted message said:

The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity. Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard. That goes for flats or on hills sitting
or standing where the equivalent is not leaning the bicycle, an even
more contrived style that is possible when riding lower gears than
optimal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sense that we are getting close to discussing "ankling", forbid.

Quoted message said:

You can relax Jobst, we aren't even approaching any "ankling"
discussion.

Whew!

Quoted message said:

My question was based, not on riding at or near maximum effort, on
riding comfortably in the 20 to 24 mph range. Personally, in those
circumstances I've found a "quiet upper body" approach works well in
reducing fatigue. It felt unnatural when I first started to
consciously try to achieve that about 8 or 9 years ago but the
longer I worked at it, the more relaxed it felt. I'd compare it to
the military posture of "standing attention". That is an extremely
uncomfortable body position at first but once one's muscles "learn"
the pose it actually seems easier on muscles, especially back
muscles, than a casual slouching posture.

What you say seems to support my contention, that to naturally do what
your body wants as you ride hard makes that riding form easier and
more natural. I suspect that you developed the muscles needed to keep
the upper body relatively motionless. I propose that that effort can
better be used to propel the bicycle. To call it a casual "slouching
posture" is begging the question. You cannot slouch when your hands
are on the drops or bar tops, but you can develop muscles that make
that natural.

I think you'll find that trained athletes sit up and ride no-hands in
rest areas (where there are food hand-ups or the field in a stage race
is just cruising. Riders do that and pedal standing occasionally as a
relaxing stretch position. Not moving the upper body is an unnatural
gait and requires effort.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity.

All out sprinting aside, a lunging upper body is a telltale sign of
trying to maintain speed in too high a gear. For an experienced
rider, dropping to a lower gear should make it go away. The notion
that one must lunge over each pedal to generate high power is old
school myth and lore. The limit to performance on climbs is the
heart, not the amount of force once can put into a pedal. Lowering
the gear ratio reduces the maximum pedal force, removing the need
for upper body gymnastics.

If you get a chance to see the 2004 Tour de France DVD, watch
Armstrong as he climbs l'Alpe d'Huez. His upper body is relaxed and
virtually motionless -- all the way to the finish (except when he
sprints to the finish out of the saddle). His cadence appears to be
80-85, for a full 40 minutes of near maximum effort climbing.

Quoted message said:

Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard.

I don't understand your point. Riders can't maintain a maximum
effort for long, regardless of their form. I think it's confusing
the point to bring up maximum effort riding when discussing riding
style. It should be obvious that a quiet upper body is more
aerobically efficient than one that's moving "all over the machine",
as Phil Liggett would say. Throwing upper body weight around is an
attempt to shove a few more pounds of force into a pedal, which
should not be confused with power. A low-torque engine that runs at
high RPMs can put out as much power as a high-torque engine with low
RPMs.

Regarding maximum effort, consider the following: Time trial
specialists can ride for an hour well above their lactate
thresholds, yet many ride with rock-solid upper bodies. Jan Ullrich
is a good example.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Quoted message said:

Terry Morse said:

http://www.cyclingnz.com/science.phtml?n=44

I see no scientific data or proof of this hypothesis

You didn't read the footnotes:

Ahlquist, L. E., Bassett, D. R., Sufit, R., Nagle, F. J., & Thomas,
D. P. (1992). The effect of pedaling frequency on glycogen depletion
rates in type I and type II quadriceps muscle fibers during
submaximal cycling exercise. European journal of applied physiology
and occupational physiology, 65(4), 360-364.

"In conclusion, cycling at the same metabolic cost at 50 rather than
100 rev.min-1 results in greater type II fiber glycogen depletion.
This is attributed to the increased muscle force required to meet
the higher resistance per cycle at the lower pedal frequency."

In other words, high cadence spares muscle glycogen, increasing the
time to fatigue. If two equally fit riders enter a long race, and
one rider uses a high cadence while the other uses a low cadence,
the high cadence rider will have more left in the tank at the
finish, and that's where races are won.

Quoted message said:

I spent many
years riding the low cadences that more recent riders denigrate as
"painful grinding" and sure to ruin my knees.

While the effect of grinding on your knees is questionable, the
effect on muscle fatigue has been demonstrated.

Quoted message said:

I watched Roger Millar and Andy Hampsten ride low cadences (60's) in
the TdS on hill climbs and watched Charley Gaul, Massignan, Pambianco,
and Rik van Looy on the Stelvio. None were turnng more than 60rpm.

I've seen old photos of TdF riders stopping for smoke breaks and
drinking wine, too. Yet few pros today smoke or drink wine. Those
TdS and Stelvio riders could have ridden longer with less fatigue if
they had used a higher cadence. The science says so.

Quoted message said:

If you believe this is to your advantage, I don't want to dissuade
you, but advising new riders to do so is folly. They should ride hill
climbs and optimize their ET. In that process the ideal cadence will
arrive naturally.

It depends on the new rider's goals, I suppose. If he wants simply
to ride and have fun, he can pick whatever cadence or riding style
feels comfortable. But if he wants to optimize his performance, he'd
be well served by paying attention to the science.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence

high

Quoted message said:

going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count

reps

Quoted message said:

when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less forceful
breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it again.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way to

go?

Quoted message said:

I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy

conservation,

Quoted message said:

but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros during climbs. I'm
thinking maybe it's something that's just very hard to change once you've
developed your riding, and climbing style.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
that's next.

A few points:

Any advantages in cadence are very small, if not, they would be obvious,
and no one would be debating them.

Techniques for small performance improvements may be useful for racing, but
they don't automatically translate into techniques for raising fitness
levels.

Pro riders have trained to perfection (at least compared to us slobs) and
look to very small effects to get any kind of edge, some of which (many?)
are psychological.

There is a variation in individual physiology, even if you're just
interested in that slight competitive edge, you're better finding it for
your own body and/or level of fitness.

Higher cadence, as a rule, trades off aerobic demand against long-term
muscle fatigue, there's no single optimum cadence, it depends on the
duration of the ride and terrain. It's better to get good at listening to
your body. Cycling is a highly "self-optimizing" activity -- your body will
figure things out on its own.

Slavish cadence counting or adherence to rigid styles makes riding tedious.
Tedium makes riding less fun. Less fun means less riding. Less riding makes
for slower development.

Hill climbing is only one skill to be learned, it's not the be all, end
all, part of cycling, competitive or otherwise.

Pace is much more important than cadence in hill climbing. The trick is to
know just how hard to push before "blowing up". This is surprisingly
difficult to learn and is not a function of cadence.