LD and Recovery fueling (long)

If your drink keeps you as long winded as you were when you wrote this
brain fart, you'll win that race by a mile......err, kilometer.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:izJZc.4138$P97.1898@trndny04...

Quoted message said:

Ok I saw Doug's post in the other thread. What are the ingredients of
Clip
Ultra, it's not on the website as far as I could see?

You are right, I have a note off the the guy that makes it. I'll get
back to you. I have Clip and Amino but no Ultra on hand.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:H3IZc.8056$TG.2175@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

I like the protein that accel gels/acclerade/endurox has in them, and
I do
notice a difference in recovery since I've been using those products
in my
daily training. The extra protein seems to make a difference. I
wonder why
Clip 2 does not contain more protein - just 1gm vs. 34gm carbs. For
this
reason I take along the protein bar in addition.

Not to be picky but it's 1.6 grams of protein per packet. Protein is a
touchy issue and I'm sure Karl came up with amount with some science. It
also has 1 g of fat. You seem to be focusing on carbs protein and
nothing about fats.

Quoted message said:

The Clip 2 has been touted here in r.r. for its low potassium content,
which
is said to be more tolerable over many hours during long events.

a 4:1 ratio seems to provide the all the K you need and not create a
caldron stomach.

Quoted message said:

Also, it's
taste is not something you get tired of - its not sweet.

Done intentionally. Heavy flavored drinks become repulsive after a few
hours.

My question about

Quoted message said:

Clip 2 - and about optimal refueling - is: given that the body can
absorb
about 60gm carbs/hour, how much liquid is minimally needed to assist
in that
absorption?

The direction say one packet per 20-26 Oz bottle which I assume keeps
the carbs in the proper proportion.

Quoted message said:

What happens if you mix it much stronger?

If it's too strong your stomach will not absorb it. Same as drinking too
much water and watering your electrolytes.

Quoted message said:

I've read in books and online about ultra training and alot of people
seem
to agree that you need to eat extra protein during ultras, but I don't
see
any products specifically formulated for this yet.

Clip II was designed specifically for this. And what is normal to know
what is extra?

Quoted message said:

In the one ultra I've
done so far (50m) they only had sweets at some of that aid stations,
though
they had BBQ chicken at the base camp which we passed through 3 times.
The
problem was I didn't feel like eating a piece of chicken until an hour
after
the event. So what's the deal all you ultra runners out there? Do
you eat
extra protein or not?

I don't know what race you did but I'm surprised they only had sweets at
the aid stations. The BBQ is an interesting change but I would not
expect it to a big hitter by most runners. The usual staple is PB&J or
cheese sandwiches and boiled potatoes with a disk of salt to dip the
spud. Fig Newtons are fairly common, with Potato chips for the salt and
fat. Extra protein, no,besides what is normal to claim extra. If I
can't get to my Clip I simply eat balanced from the aid tables. If the
50 you did only had sweets I would not run that race again.

Quoted message said:

Also, while I'm on the subject of recovery, I will just share one
other
thing - I've found that taking high doses of an antioxidant vitamin
formula
(with A, C, E, zinc etc.) helps recovery a great deal after hard
training
and races. I recommend this highly.

Do what you think works for you. I take extra C, E and B every day not
just after a long effort.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

Miss Anne Thrope wrote in message

<25200-413782FF-224@storefull->3157.bay.webtv.net>...

Quoted message said:

If your drink keeps you as long winded as you were when you wrote this
brain fart, you'll win that race by a mile......err, kilometer.

lol - yep my post is a bit of a brain fart - oh well!

Doug Freese wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:H3IZc.8056$TG.2175@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

I like the protein that accel gels/acclerade/endurox has in them, and
I do
notice a difference in recovery since I've been using those products
in my
daily training. The extra protein seems to make a difference. I
wonder why
Clip 2 does not contain more protein - just 1gm vs. 34gm carbs. For
this
reason I take along the protein bar in addition.

Not to be picky but it's 1.6 grams of protein per packet. Protein is a
touchy issue and I'm sure Karl came up with amount with some science. It
also has 1 g of fat. You seem to be focusing on carbs protein and
nothing about fats.

Not really, I just didn't mention fats in my post. I know mid-chain
triglycerides are supposed to be very good for ultra events and are the type
of fats that can be most redily used by the muscles. So I did see that Clip
2 has 1gm fat, though I don't know if its mid-chain.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Clip 2 has been touted here in r.r. for its low potassium content,
which
is said to be more tolerable over many hours during long events.

a 4:1 ratio seems to provide the all the K you need and not create a
caldron stomach.

Yes, the lower value of K in Clip 2 is the reason I wanted to try it. That
goes with it's design intention of providing the nutrition you need while
being palettable under adverse conditions - I like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, it's
taste is not something you get tired of - its not sweet.

Done intentionally. Heavy flavored drinks become repulsive after a few
hours.

Exactly, and I like that about it. In fact it tastes like there's no sugar
or sweetness in it at all.

Quoted message said:

My question about

Quoted message said:

Clip 2 - and about optimal refueling - is: given that the body can
absorb
about 60gm carbs/hour, how much liquid is minimally needed to assist
in that
absorption?

The direction say one packet per 20-26 Oz bottle which I assume keeps
the carbs in the proper proportion.

Quoted message said:

What happens if you mix it much stronger?

If it's too strong your stomach will not absorb it. Same as drinking too
much water and watering your electrolytes.

My goal is to get as much 'food' into my body as possible during the race,
but not so much that it will upset my stomach or slow me down. So I guess
I'll stick to what worked in my last long run (the rule) - take in a bottle
of clip 2 every hour or so, and then take a gel every 45 mins or so and have
plain water in a 2nd bottle to wash that down.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've read in books and online about ultra training and alot of people
seem
to agree that you need to eat extra protein during ultras, but I don't
see
any products specifically formulated for this yet.

Clip II was designed specifically for this. And what is normal to know
what is extra?

Yes Clip 2 seems well-designed in many respects. Yet I believe in the
stipulation that a higher protien content aids in the absorption of
carbohydrate, but perhaps the science of this isn't yet clear enough for it
to be designed into clip 2.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the one ultra I've
done so far (50m) they only had sweets at some of that aid stations,
though
they had BBQ chicken at the base camp which we passed through 3 times.
The
problem was I didn't feel like eating a piece of chicken until an hour
after
the event. So what's the deal all you ultra runners out there? Do
you eat
extra protein or not?

I don't know what race you did but I'm surprised they only had sweets at
the aid stations. The BBQ is an interesting change but I would not
expect it to a big hitter by most runners. The usual staple is PB&J or
cheese sandwiches and boiled potatoes with a disk of salt to dip the
spud. Fig Newtons are fairly common, with Potato chips for the salt and
fat. Extra protein, no,besides what is normal to claim extra. If I
can't get to my Clip I simply eat balanced from the aid tables. If the
50 you did only had sweets I would not run that race again.

Actually, they did have potato chips at some of the aid stations - it was
the finger lakes 50's. At ONE of the stations late in the race I got a
bananna, and that was the only thing that would go down. No PB & J to my
recollection...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, while I'm on the subject of recovery, I will just share one
other
thing - I've found that taking high doses of an antioxidant vitamin
formula
(with A, C, E, zinc etc.) helps recovery a great deal after hard
training
and races. I recommend this highly.

Do what you think works for you. I take extra C, E and B every day not
just after a long effort.

I also take them every day, but in much higher doses after an event.

Thanks for the feed back...

Quoted message said:

-DougF

Tony said:

The book is short
and has many references, but it came free with my order of Endurox -- hmmmm.
It reminds me of the book by Edmund Burke "Optimal Muscle Recovery", which
also touts the 4:1 carb/protein ratio. Both of these books are very well
referenced, and they make claims of extended endurance and better recovery
with the 4:1 ratio and ingesting at the right time.

However, as Sam as pointed out, the studies compared x carbs with x
carbs + 0.25x protein so there were more calories in the 4:1 mix. There
might be other studies by now that look at 4:1 with constant calories.
(I've been looking)

Quoted message said:

I don't see any other studies rebutting that added protein is better.

There's 3 issues: protein to replace protein (help in healing), protein
as energy source, protein to help absorption of carbs (which is what the
4:1 studies seem to emphasize). Some drinks/foods may use amino acids
for some similar functions, and they don't show on the % protein since
they aren't complete protein. I'm under the impression that the first
2 are reasonably true (probably caveats like with everything), but the
protein helping absorption of carbs might be questionable. (I'm winging
this off the top of my head and may have forgotten some studies)

Quoted message said:

it seems to make a difference in my experience.

ditto

I gave my cousin who is a

Quoted message said:

bike racer some Accelerade for a xmas gift. He said he didn't like the
taste at first, but he noticed a difference in endurance and switched to
using it. I think I agree that the high potassium levels in Accelerade
don't make it ideal for ultras, so that's why I tried Clip 2, but I'm
totally convinced that added protein is better for recovery and added
endurance. Accel gels luckily don't have as much potassium as Accelerade
though (40mg vs. 65mg) so I'm planning to use Clip 2 and Accel gels during
my 50k, just like my last training run.

I've read in books and online about ultra training and alot of people seem
to agree that you need to eat extra protein during ultras, but I don't see
any products specifically formulated for this yet.

Along with Clip and Amino, things like Cytomax may have amino acids
(don't show in the protein %) that may provide some functions of
protein. Also Ensure (in various varieties) and SlimFast have protein in
about 1:4 (whether it's accidental or by design, I'm clueless) and are
used in ultras and IM.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)