1% treadmill incline setting = flat outdoor running?

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in the opinions of those with extensive
treadmill and outdoor running experience.

GWB is an [censored].

"the church lady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been browsing the archives for this often discussed topic, and
the concensus seems to be that a 1% treadmill incline setting would
simulate flat surface outdoor running.

I would be interested in the opinions of those with extensive
treadmill and outdoor running experience.

The 1% comes from a research paper published that showed that raising the
incline 1% increased the energy expenditure so that it equaled (or came
close) the energy needed to overcome the air drag of running outside. The
faster one runs, the higher the grade needs to be, but I cannot remember
where that speed is but it is pretty fast (5min/mile pace IIRC).

I would say it would be very hard for a person to feel the difference with
any certainty.

I have used a crude method to verify this. Measuring HR on a flat course
and then doing the same inside on a treadmill. 1% is pretty close, but
there are too many factors in using HR to make it as specific as one needs
to be.

A treadmill has very little with real running.

the church lady said:

I've been browsing the archives for this often discussed topic, and
the concensus seems to be that a 1% treadmill incline setting would
simulate flat surface outdoor running.

No. 1% compensates for the energy cost of drag. It doesn't address
differences in footing, calibration error, temperature (outdoors could be
cooler OR warmer than room temperature), lack of airflow, etc.

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in the opinions of those with extensive treadmill
and outdoor running experience.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with "simulating flat surface outdoor
running". If that's the goal, why not just run outdoors ?

The important information here, that you don't provide, is why you need to
know this.

If you're interested in logging milage, then I would argue that it actually
doesn't matter a whole lot whether you use the 1% grade or not. The difference
is tiny. Mile for mile, terrain such as grass or dirt will always be much more
work than miles on pavement on treadmill.

If you're interested in using the proper intensity for steady pace aerobic
runs, just select a pace that feels about right.

If you're interested in interval training or speed work, possible calibration
error makes it impossible to know exactly how fast you're going anyway, but I'd
recommend taking advantage of the fact that you have an adjustable incline, and
doing hill training. The Jack Daniels book has a pace chart for hill training,
you might be able to find something on the web too.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with "simulating flat surface outdoor
running". If that's the goal, why not just run outdoors ?

The voice of reason.

Sam said:

"the church lady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been browsing the archives for this often discussed topic, and
the concensus seems to be that a 1% treadmill incline setting would
simulate flat surface outdoor running.

I would be interested in the opinions of those with extensive
treadmill and outdoor running experience.

The 1% comes from a research paper published that showed that raising the
incline 1% increased the energy expenditure so that it equaled (or came
close) the energy needed to overcome the air drag of running outside. The
faster one runs, the higher the grade needs to be, but I cannot remember
where that speed is but it is pretty fast (5min/mile pace IIRC).

I would say it would be very hard for a person to feel the difference with
any certainty.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4033405&dopt=Abstract

Not sure where these values originated
http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

I'm always suspicious of the slope readings on the tmills, but I only
use them in xt class.

--
"I used to be real gung-ho. Now I try to look at it as a day hike with a
sense of purpose."
-Harlow Robinson, winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi, 9000ft up
and down)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2004-09-06, the church lady <[email hidden]> wrote:
I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with "simulating flat surface outdoor
running". If that's the goal, why not just run outdoors ?

It's easy to think of lots of possible reasons. Maybe he's training
for a race that's flat, but on lives on the side of a steep hill?
(I like treadmill running for the opposite reason.) Or is training for
a warm weather race, but lives where it snows half the year? Or works
in a metro area where some drivers think joggers are targets, if they
see pedestrians at all? Or in the countryside where the mountain lions
think runners are slow moving chew toys? Or wants to run on something
slightly softer than concrete? Maybe skin cancer runs in the family
and his doctor told him to limit sun exposure? etc. yada yada

In any case, the year I trained mostly on treadmills, I alternated
between 1% and 2% incline because there were a couple large fans blowing
diagonally from behind.

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/
#include <canonical.disclaimer> // only my own opinions, etc.

I run regularly on a TM at 1% and I run regularly outside. My sense is
that outside is still harder. I can pretty easily do four 8-min. miles
on the TM @ 1%. I can't quite match that outside. I'm not sure why.
Hills? Wind? Heat and humidity? Fear of being passed by women (GOD, I
HATE that!)?

[email hidden] (Ronald H. Nicholson Jr.) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2004-09-06, the church lady <[email hidden]> wrote:
I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with "simulating flat surface outdoor
running". If that's the goal, why not just run outdoors ?

It's easy to think of lots of possible reasons. Maybe he's training
for a race that's flat, but on lives on the side of a steep hill?
(I like treadmill running for the opposite reason.) Or is training for
a warm weather race, but lives where it snows half the year? Or works
in a metro area where some drivers think joggers are targets, if they
see pedestrians at all? Or in the countryside where the mountain lions
think runners are slow moving chew toys? Or wants to run on something
slightly softer than concrete? Maybe skin cancer runs in the family
and his doctor told him to limit sun exposure? etc. yada yada

In any case, the year I trained mostly on treadmills, I alternated
between 1% and 2% incline because there were a couple large fans blowing
diagonally from behind.

IMHO. YMMV.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(John B.) said:

I run regularly on a TM at 1% and I run regularly outside. My sense is
that outside is still harder. I can pretty easily do four 8-min. miles
on the TM @ 1%. I can't quite match that outside. I'm not sure why.
Hills? Wind? Heat and humidity? Fear of being passed by women (GOD, I
HATE that!)?

It's worse in a triathlon, when you see women from an age group older
than yours passing you and you know their wave started 15 minutes AFTER
yours did. :-)

It's a good thing I have a healthy perspective and know that I'm not
supposed to be faster just because I'm a man.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

well, you don't have to push your leg back on the TM...

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(John B.) said:

I run regularly on a TM at 1% and I run regularly outside. My sense is
that outside is still harder. I can pretty easily do four 8-min. miles
on the TM @ 1%. I can't quite match that outside. I'm not sure why.
Hills? Wind? Heat and humidity? Fear of being passed by women (GOD, I
HATE that!)?

It's worse in a triathlon, when you see women from an age group older
than yours passing you and you know their wave started 15 minutes AFTER
yours did. :-)

It's a good thing I have a healthy perspective and know that I'm not
supposed to be faster just because I'm a man.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

serg said:

well, you don't have to push your leg back on the TM...

Nonsense.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

serg said:

well, you don't have to push your leg back on the TM...

Nonsense.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

It's worse in a triathlon, when you see women from an age group older
than yours passing you and you know their wave started 15 minutes AFTER
yours did. :-)

Beat down by a bunch of old ladies. How sad for you.

9-11 forget it, it's over. Who cares? Nobody.

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(John B.) said:

I run regularly on a TM at 1% and I run regularly outside. My sense is
that outside is still harder. I can pretty easily do four 8-min. miles
on the TM @ 1%. I can't quite match that outside.

Have you calibrated your treadmill?

Andy Coggan