Re: clinton surgery question

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, [email hidden] (Steve Harris

) said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But I do believe that God doesn't spend
a lot of time worrying about the problems of atheists.

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

You also seem to be asking me how prayer works. Jesus instructed us
to pray and how to pray and what to pray for. I try to do it His way.
Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not. I
believe that God doesn't much care to violate His own Laws of Physics
to answer my prayers so I don't often ask for this (and don't get it
much either.) Some of my prayers have been of the intercessory
variety and I don't know whether they were answered or not. Or if so,
how. But I try it anyway. Can't hurt.

I believe that one of God's most frequent methods of answering prayer
is though ideas. Ideas don't have to obey His Laws of Physics. They
are neither matter nor energy. I do know that incredible ideas have
been slipped into my brain in a mere flash of an instant that were
fully and completely correct once I had time to work out the science.
Talk about discernment - wow! I didn't ask for it, pray for it or
know any other reason why it happened but it did. My working
hypothesis for this is that God wanted someone to know this idea and
gave it to me (and possibly many others as well.) Why? I don't know.
But I am very thankful to have participated in this. And oh, some of
this happened before I believed in God. Maybe He was just trying to
get my attention. It worked, but I guess He knew it would.

So keep you mind open - God might decide that you should be the one to
receive the knowledge to cure HIV, tuberculosis or malaria. Why then,
why you? I don't know. But be ready. Prepare yourself.

John

John said:

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, [email hidden] (Steve Harris

) said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But I do believe that God doesn't spend
a lot of time worrying about the problems of atheists.

God is outside of time. God is in all time. God created time. Your
continued anthropomorphizing of God makes no sense at all. You reduce
God to some somewhat superior, harried human who can't keep up with
his own creations. God is pure vastness and pure infinity. You make
God sound like some petulant suburbanite who can't be bothered to deal
with his crabgrass.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

Not at all surprisingly, "John" misses the real issues in Steve's
comments. Steve raises the question about *why* they're the problems
of life if God is benevolent and fair as you assert. Steve wonders why
an omnipotent, all-merciful being would permit the sorts of cruelty
that pervades daily life to persist. You're going to give one of those
"No one knows what's in God's mind" evasions. You happily posit what
else God thinks, all except "why." That *test* business dies under the
most trivial scrutiny.

Quoted message said:

You also seem to be asking me how prayer works. Jesus instructed us
to pray and how to pray and what to pray for. I try to do it His way.
Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not. I
believe that God doesn't much care to violate His own Laws of Physics
to answer my prayers so I don't often ask for this (and don't get it
much either.) Some of my prayers have been of the intercessory
variety and I don't know whether they were answered or not. Or if so,
how. But I try it anyway. Can't hurt.

"Can't hurt." This is your explanation about prayer?

"Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not." And
what's the difference between that and no prayer and some wishes seem
to be fulfilled and others not?

"...I don't know whether they were answered or not." And you still
think this is a good way to invest your time, energy and thought?

Quoted message said:

I believe that one of God's most frequent methods of answering prayer
is though ideas. Ideas don't have to obey His Laws of Physics. They
are neither matter nor energy. I do know that incredible ideas have
been slipped into my brain in a mere flash of an instant that were
fully and completely correct once I had time to work out the science.

Sorry, "John." You haven't shown any discernible ability with the ways
of science. You don't develop thoughts logically and linearly. You
don't test your own hypotheses, you don't limit your expositions to
that which can be measured or proven, you don't proceed in orderly
fashion to promulgate ideas. You aren't a scientist.

You have earlier claimed to be an engineer. Science and engineering
are fundamentally different ways of looking at the universe - with
engineering being a more pragmatic, empirical way that reduces action
to its most basic principles. What it really looks like is that you're
neither.

Quoted message said:

Talk about discernment - wow!

<LOL> Right. Push very hard to fit that round peg into a square hole...

Inspiration happens with people who believe, who don't believe, who
believe in wicca, who don't believe in an afterlife, and...

The guys who came up with wheels, spears, bows and arrows,
domesticated animals, etc. came up with ideas. They saw the world and
did a "what if" or a "why not." It's patently absurd to posit this as
divine instruction in the face of the whole business about free will.
By the time you and Chung get through with how much is the direction
of God, there's not a lot left for anybody to will.

Quoted message said:

I didn't ask for it, pray for it or
know any other reason why it happened but it did.

The salient fact here is that you don't know and have no evidence for
anything. Or so a scientist would say. So would an engineer.

Quoted message said:

My working
hypothesis for this is that God wanted someone to know this idea and
gave it to me (and possibly many others as well.) Why? I don't know.

No reason to believe it came from God. No evidence. Belief only.

Quoted message said:

But I am very thankful to have participated in this. And oh, some of
this happened before I believed in God. Maybe He was just trying to
get my attention.

Assuming a position not supported by evidence of any kind.

Quoted message said:

It worked, but I guess He knew it would.

Or maybe it's a nonsense example pulled out of thin air and at the
level of 4th grade Sunday School with crayons and potholders with a
cross woven into them.

"John" uses his "working hypothesis" as proof of his working
hypothesis. Lousy science. Lousy engineering. Lousy thinking in
general. Flawed and dismissable.

A labored explanation with not even your own conviction to sustain it.
"Why? I don't know." Says it all.

Quoted message said:

So keep you mind open - God might decide that you should be the one to
receive the knowledge to cure HIV, tuberculosis or malaria. Why then,
why you? I don't know. But be ready. Prepare yourself.

Right. And get ready to win the olympic marathon. "But be ready.
Prepare yourself."

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Go study some theology with somebody who knows a bit of history,
cultural anthropology and comparative theology. Instead of whoever it
is that's feeding you these feather-light ideas.

Bob

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Which means Chung,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that it's
necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention. How's that for egoism?

MU:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unmatched by your own egoism, Steve, especially when you lump all intercessory
prayer as both compelling and informative.

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

And just exactly where did I do that?

When you said "and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that
it's necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention." See above.

Quoted message said:

FYI, I'm using "helpful" in the broadest sense, to mean helpful to god
or helpful in getting the problem solved. If the believer prays for
god to do something nice for somebody that god wouldn't otherwise do,
and god does it, there's a nice philosophical problem. But if prayer
never influences god to do something he wouldn't have done anyway even
without the prayer, then what's the point of praying for intercession?

Here's a better point. How would you know the answer to your question?
Again, Steve, I do what God asks, what God enlightens me to understand. I
don't rely on my understanding An Infinite Being in order to do so.

Am I curious? Like a kid waiting for Christmas. And, like Christmas, that
day will come. I'm not paralyzed by the process of (wasting time) trying to
understand God.

Quoted message said:

Besides, most Christians believe prayer for intercession by god works,
sometimes. That's what they say they believe, anyway.

I believe that most Christians, who have their spiritual heads on straight,
follow the belief that their prayers have effect. Direct, indirect, none?
Who knows? How would one know? What is the test?

Faith. In the end, with God, that is all Christians have.

For me, it is more than enough.

Quoted message said:

MU now says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But then, being a non Christian
and all, knowing about God has become a (obsessive) specialty of yours.

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

COMMENT:

Well, heck, if I do it and you don't like it, it must be an
"obsession" of mine, eh? I think you're misusing the language. I don't
think you'd know an obsession if it bit you on the ass.

It doesn't bother me at all that you obsess about God, Steve; may be the
best way for yu to find your path to him.

As to the definition of obsession, well, I'll let the reading Usenet public
decide your fate on that.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P23212559

Quoted message said:

Want to google
USENET and look at the fraction of MY total postings on the subject of
Christianity or religion, vs., say, your own? I probably run less
than 1000 to 1. How come it's my obsession and not yours?

Then you must post a link showing my 600,000 posts, Steve (see above). I
hope you do. I am obsessed with Christ.

Quoted message said:

MU said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's see if I have this right. You know intimately about a God yu impugn
and deny even exists every chance you get.

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

COMMENT
No, you don't have it right. It's believers who claim to know god
intimately, and (strange to tell) they still can't agree on much about
him.

Exactly. You want your (g)God "in a box'; completely understandable,
static, He does this, He does that. You want to dictate the terms from
your perspective.

I let God dictate the terms to me.

Quoted message said:

Does that mean I can't be skeptical?

I am; why not you?

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These people who go on and on about their humility, are actually some
of the most narcissitic weenies you'll ever run across. They are
always to be found verbally trying to help god fix up the universe,

Quoted message said:

MU:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Always? Every single time?

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

COMMENT:
You're always free to fix up my errors, instead of just claiming they
exist.

Sorry, Steve, you can fix the errors, or not, that I show to exist.

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Does asking god to do good to anybody EVER result in ANY good
works by god that wouldn't have been done by god, if you hadn't
prayed? Yes or no? I don't think there's an excluded middle ground.
Either it never does, or at least it sometimes does.

You want your (g)God "in a box'; completely understandable, static, He does
this, He does that. You want to dictate the terms from your perspective.

Quoted message said:

COMMENT FROM STEVE HARRIS MD:

Quoted message said:

Pray for me, Chung. God doesn't read sci.med, so I need it bad....

Quoted message said:

MU:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You need it bad regardless of what God does or doesn't read.

Quoted message said:

COMMENT
I need prayer bad? For what purpose?

You said you need it bad. I agreed.

Life is spiritually dead without an eternal meaning and prayer, best coming
from you, and there will be no way, none whatsoever, for your salvation
until you can pray (solicit, ask whatever) for Christ to enter your life.

Quoted message said:

You think it will influence god
to do something he wouldn't otherwise do? Same old question. Let's see
you dodge it again.

SBH

Influence God? Don't now. Is prayer worthwhile? Absolutely. Dodge the
question. Not once.

John said:

Steve Harris MD,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this.

I believe that God will do this as well however I am certain that we may
not recognize "help" in the terms we desire. Help will be in His terms and
is what is best for us whether we recognize it or not.

Bob (this one) said:

Could your limited grasp of the all-mighty be more evident?

Limited? My grasp of God is past limitations; grasp an Ultimate And Unknown
Being who created all we know and see and all don't know and don't see? An
infinite amount of knowledge?

Grasp?

I'd better call it hanging on for dear Life, Bob.

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, Steve Harris [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me.

I noticed.

Quoted message said:

The world needs something more.

Good to know you can access the world's needs so succinctly. Must be one
hell of a task to keep up with.

Quoted message said:

The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic.

Past gigantic, Steve, well past it.

Quoted message said:

So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

Time and His Plan - two different things, Steve.

Quoted message said:

So the question before us, is, why not?

The only question is why do you think that you have to that answer?

You lack faith; you want to dictate the terms of your relationship with
God.

You will be asking these same questions until they bury you.

When they bury you, you will be truly dead for eternity. Your chance will
have passed, your chance for knowing Christ and eternal life with Him.

I expect that is exactly your outcome, Steve, exactly.

Bob (this one) said:

God is outside of time. God is in all time. God created time. Your
continued anthropomorphizing of God makes no sense at all.

Quoted message said:

God is pure vastness and pure infinity.

Bob, put Christ into this equation and you have done it!

But I don't think you will.

MU said:

Bob (this one) said:

God is outside of time. God is in all time. God created time. Your
continued anthropomorphizing of God makes no sense at all.

Quoted message said:

God is pure vastness and pure infinity.

Bob, put Christ into this equation and you have done it!

But I don't think you will.

<LOL> So Jesus is now separate from God? Have you heard of
Christianity and the basic element of the trinity? It's you mystical
"I don't belong to any church but I understand everything about Jesus"
wackos who try to fit God to your stunted egos, and make all of
Christianity look silly. You go on and on about what the bible says
and doesn't say and you ignore and downplay all those parts that say
you're not doing it right or you don't understand the real issues.

And, in the real world, who cares what you think I'll do? You're a
cowardly, anonymous fraud who claims a lot of perfectly unbelievable
accomplishments with not a scintilla of proof and not a whisper of
supporting data or testimony except from the fraud Chung. Have you
seen one of his latest howlers? Somebody asked him how many people
have been on the air-brain 2PD for more than 5 years and he said words
to the effect, "More than this busy cardiologist can keep track of."
The poster noted that he said on his website that he saw the IMAX
movie that ostensibly triggered it in 1998. 1999 must have been a
[censored] of a year for dieters... Oh, wait. That would only be 5 years,
not *more than* 5 years... Bwah... Chung tells us again and again how
he only writes the truth. <LOL> Sure.

As for your opinions about anything, there's no "you" with you. Only
shadowy spots on my monitor.

Why are you so afraid of identifying yourself? Could it be that same
kind of overwrought paranoia that makes Chung say his hospital
admitting privileges exist but the hospitals are lying about it to
prevent stalkers from finding him even though he has freely posted his
address and his office address? That kind of fear...? That kind of
fakery...? Or could it be that you've told so many lies that you
*can't* identify yourself or that house of unreal cards would
instantly tumble?

Hey, lovely to see you. Your stupid questions and pokes at your
betters provide a wonderful stage to offer intelligent comment. By
rather stark contrast with yours...

Bob

MU said:

Bob (this one) said:

Could your limited grasp of the all-mighty be more evident?

Limited? My grasp of God is past limitations; grasp an Ultimate And Unknown
Being who created all we know and see and all don't know and don't see? An
infinite amount of knowledge?

Grasp?

I'd better call it hanging on for dear Life, Bob.

Here's a beginning point for you to actually consider a more scholarly
and orderly approach to all this; a more mature way. At this point,
you're a kid staring into the night sky thinking that it's random
except for something planned. Or something.

Different approaches to the knowledge of God:

Apophatic = God is unknowable, so the only approach to Him is
through what we cannot know - the humbling notion that even the
smallest detail is beyond our capabilities. This is primarily the
Eastern Orthodox approach, filled with mystery and paradox, faith
always paramount even if logic dictates otherwise.

Cataphatic = God is knowable, or at least describable through
theological discourse and can be explained in terms of what His plans
and his demands of us are. This is the Western approach exemplified
by thinkers like Thomas Aquinas.

Your lightweight approach is a clumsy combination of both, resulting
in a clear expression of neither. It's a child's "gee, whiz" picture
that stops before considering that we're in his image and likeness and
what that means.

Bob

"MU" <[email hidden]

.. On Sat said:

Quoted message said:

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this.

I believe that God will do this as well however I am certain that we may
not recognize "help" in the terms we desire. Help will be in His terms and
is what is best for us whether we recognize it or not.

And you just said you're a skeptic. This silly rhetoric presumes that all
rewards and punishments are meted out in the afterlife. And that makes your
position worthless to anyone with a skeptical bone. You might as well claim
that you're god.

moo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that God will do this as well however I am certain that we may
not recognize "help" in the terms we desire. Help will be in His terms and
is what is best for us whether we recognize it or not.

Happy Dog said:

And you just said you're a skeptic. This silly rhetoric presumes that all
rewards and punishments are meted out in the afterlife.

No, you made that incorrect assumption. As to being a skeptic, sure am.
You're not? You're sure about true knowledge and what it is?

Quoted message said:

And that makes your
position worthless to anyone with a skeptical bone.

Quoted message said:

You might as well claim
that you're god.

You might put down that pipe and learn to read and put together coherent
thought patterns. How you get from a misinterpretation of skepticism to an
inaccurate presumption/statement regarding the afterlife is a brain maze I
cannot even begin to follow.

"MU" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe that God will do this as well however I am certain that we may
not recognize "help" in the terms we desire. Help will be in His terms
and
is what is best for us whether we recognize it or not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And you just said you're a skeptic. This silly rhetoric presumes that
all
rewards and punishments are meted out in the afterlife.

No, you made that incorrect assumption.

It's incorrect? You know this how, MU? And, if not reward or punishment in
the afterlife, what possible reason for horrible things happening to good
people or the opposite?

Quoted message said:

As to being a skeptic, sure am.
You're not? You're sure about true knowledge and what it is?

Uh, that would be the belief of the faithful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And that makes your
position worthless to anyone with a skeptical bone.

Quoted message said:

You might as well claim
that you're god.

You might put down that pipe and learn to read and put together coherent
thought patterns. How you get from a misinterpretation of skepticism to an
inaccurate presumption/statement regarding the afterlife is a brain maze I
cannot even begin to follow.

It's simple. You're a Christ-besotted idiot who makes untestable claims.
You might as well claim to be god. It's logically equal to much of the
stuff you claim.

moo

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary. If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

SBH

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, [email hidden] (Steve Harris

) said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Quoted message said:

If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me. The hardest thing
in my life was to face the fact that my daughter was gone and nothing
could bring her back....and that it was caused by the free will choice
of the perpetrators. But would I be willing to give up free will so
that this would not have happened? No.

Quoted message said:

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

I think this would be easier to face because there is no perpetrator
involved. Still extremely difficult, but having faced the one I think
I'd have preferred the other. There are also no forgiveness issues
with a disease as there are with murderers. Figuring out how to
follow Jesus' teaching to forgive our enemies was very difficult to
do. It took me 14 years to work it out.

Quoted message said:

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy.

It'd be more correct to say, "That's the problem with human beings.
It's all that hypocrisy."

Quoted message said:

When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

There's a country song with the words, "Lord, I want to go to Heaven,
but I don't want to go tonight." Death is not to be feared but it is
not to be embraced either. I intend to do everything I can to
maximize my time here on Earth without messing up my eternal life.
I'm wondering where you get these strange misconceptions of what the
Christian life is like.

John

John said:

[email hidden]) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

The point is that the god-besotted make the hypocritcal argument that god is
great either because he created this behaviour or allows it. To what end?

Quoted message said:

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Love killing thine enemies. Where do you guys draw the line? God has this
free will conundrum happening in his own mind? (His own mind? - Lordy.)
What the [censored] is free will to an omnipotent being? Have you thought this
through? An omnipotent being has no use for free will. Any will at all.
To deny this leads directly to the question of heavy rocks. Is this new to
you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

I think this would be easier to face because there is no perpetrator
involved. Still extremely difficult, but having faced the one I think
I'd have preferred the other. There are also no forgiveness issues
with a disease as there are with murderers. Figuring out how to
follow Jesus' teaching to forgive our enemies was very difficult to
do. It took me 14 years to work it out.

Or aquiesce to a comfortable fairy tale. To believe that god is omnipotent
is to forgive horrible things that he might have prevented. (Hey, you said
that he's human-like.) But, you believe in an eternal after-life. So why
be so quick to forgive?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

There's a country song with the words, "Lord, I want to go to Heaven,
but I don't want to go tonight." Death is not to be feared but it is
not to be embraced either. I intend to do everything I can to
maximize my time here on Earth without messing up my eternal life.
I'm wondering where you get these strange misconceptions of what the
Christian life is like.

You have no eternal life that you can bet on. So forgive now only if it
makes you feel better. Do you think that the loved ones hurt must feel the
same way? If they cried "kill" would you act? If other Christians told you
to forgive but had conflicting worldly interests would you defer to their
pious stance? I'm wondering where you get anything resembling a conception
of what any life ruled by religion is like. What makes yours any different
from ass-waving Muslims?

le m

John said:

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, [email hidden] (Steve Harris

) said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

>Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
>The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
>humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
>time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
>dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
>disease.
>
>So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
>away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
>somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
>does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
>answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
>prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
>human) to pray for him/her/itself.
>
>You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
>things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
>and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
>everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
>atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices.

Could you even begin to stick to topic, [censored] "John?" Here, address
this - nothing about free will here:
"A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria, and tuberculosis in this world
would go the way of smallpox. And everybody would get something to
eat, too."

Forget your [censored] party line. Address what Steve spoke to. Start here:
"For simplicity's sake, please confine your answer to third party
intercession, where the innocent suffer being prayed for is too ill or
too young or two mentally impaired (animal or human) to pray for
him/her/itself."

Quoted message said:

Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

But then you assert that it's all according to God's plan. BANG. No
free will. Now comes the sophistic nonsense to justify and accommodate
two mutually exclusive ideas.

Quoted message said:

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God.

"I believe..." NOte the rigorous proofs...

Fool.

Quoted message said:

Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Love like you, Chung, MU_ ppet, Carol display? It's love all right,
for a sufficiently deprived sense of respect and affection.

Actual smart people who have considered this question say that we're
most like God in our rationality. That we have a sense of past and
future unlike animals. That we have a fuller body of emotions and a
broader range of expressions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me.

DUH, featherweight. That's the whole point. Forget your theoretical
claptrap. Get real with this subject.

Quoted message said:

The hardest thing
in my life was to face the fact that my daughter was gone and nothing
could bring her back....and that it was caused by the free will choice
of the perpetrators. But would I be willing to give up free will so
that this would not have happened? No.

Quoted message said:

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

I think this would be easier to face because there is no perpetrator
involved. Still extremely difficult, but having faced the one I think
I'd have preferred the other. There are also no forgiveness issues
with a disease as there are with murderers. Figuring out how to
follow Jesus' teaching to forgive our enemies was very difficult to
do. It took me 14 years to work it out.

<LOL> If your behavior here is any indication, it's 14 wasted years.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy.

It'd be more correct to say, "That's the problem with human beings.
It's all that hypocrisy."

Nah. You wacko fundies try to posit everything in light of some divine
supervisor who controls the universe to its smallest detail and then
talk about this free will (that exists only in the most general
terms). It's almost as though things like instinct, chemical
imbalances, traumas, training, deprivation, etc. don't influence how
people behave. As though it all happens in a vacuum and only the
purity of a freely made decision is how the world actually works. Only
a superficial nincompoop like you believes that there are no
compulsions directing people, to some lesser or greater degree. You
have to look no further than your demented hero Chung to see how his
obsessions and compulsions force him to behave irrationally,
self-destructively, dishonestly. Much like you, anonymous "john."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

There's a country song with the words, "Lord, I want to go to Heaven,
but I don't want to go tonight." Death is not to be feared but it is
not to be embraced either. I intend to do everything I can to
maximize my time here on Earth without messing up my eternal life.
I'm wondering where you get these strange misconceptions of what the
Christian life is like.

From the insanities your and your unbalanced kinds post, how you act
in daily life, and what the fundies in and out of government do. Your
blindness to your own actions and your eagerness to ignore the real
penalties and prices of your actions point to the real sin of your
view. You're "pick and choose" Christians. Fakes...

Bob

Happy Dog rote:

John said:

Quoted message said:

I intend to do everything I can to maximize my time here on Earth
without messing up my eternal life. I'm wondering where you get
these strange misconceptions of what the Christian life is like.

Quoted message said:

You have no eternal life that you can bet on. So forgive now only
if it makes you feel better. Do you think that the loved ones hurt
must feel the same way? If they cried "kill" would you act? If
other Christians told you to forgive but had conflicting worldly
interests would you defer to their pious stance? I'm wondering
where you get anything resembling a conception of what any life
ruled by religion is like. What makes yours any different from
ass-waving Muslims?

<LOL> Lovely. The bunch of them got upset when I called them
Taliban-like. The realities zoomed past them.

You have to forgive "John." He's trying to carry the entire wacko
fundamentalist cardboard-Christian load here. The problem is his
hairstyle. He hasn't been able to get one of those swoopy, contrived
do's that the televangelists have. And he lost his robin's egg blue
leisure suit. I'm sure you see the handicap he's working under. Well,
all this and the fact that he's a balloonhead.

Just take a few potshots at him (I agree that slow-moving targets like
him aren't as satisfying as a smart person) and think of it as
practice to keep the observational and critical skills slightly
sharpened.

I like the "besotted" image you've written. On the mark.

Bob

John said:

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, [email hidden] (Steve Harris

) said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

>Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
>The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
>humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
>time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
>dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
>disease.
>
>So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
>away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
>somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
>does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
>answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
>prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
>human) to pray for him/her/itself.
>
>You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
>things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
>and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
>everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
>atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Quoted message said:

If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me.

It always amazes me how God purposefully uses those who have rejected
Him without violating their free will. Here there is true "shock and
awe."

Those who discern the truth see it and are manifold strengthened by what
they see.

Yes, our free wills are coexisting with His huge will and marvelous
plan. With God all things are possible, without Him nothing is
possible.

You remain in my prayers, dear John whom I love.

May the Holy Spirit continue to fill you with strength and purpose.

Amen.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

Steve Harris said:

John <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary. If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

Such is the weakness of the flesh.

Quoted message said:

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub."

As Christians, we have not been commanded to give up the blessings of
God but to use these blessings to glorify Him.

Quoted message said:

I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

Not if one has chosen to walk with Him.

Quoted message said:

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

Will of God.

Quoted message said:

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

What you see is part of His will.

Quoted message said:

SBH

You remain in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I like the "besotted" image you've written. On the mark.

Agreed. But not mine. "Uncle" Al Schwartz. Google it.

le moo