Newsday on statins: cardiologist says muscle pain can be extreme

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

TC

[email hidden] (fresh~horses) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

When statins cause problems
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-dscovn3924010aug10,0,5063441.story?coll=ny-health-big-pix

Side effects of cholesterol-fighting drugs get attention in wake of
concern about Crestor

"I think the muscle part of the statins is underappreciated," said Dr.
Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at Hartford Hospital.

BY RONI RABIN
STAFF WRITER

August 10, 2004

Eileen Mulvey is a spry 70-year-old who's usually up and down the
steps to her second floor co-op a dozen times a day. But in February,
two weeks after she started taking Crestor to lower her cholesterol,
she couldn't make it up the stairs.

"My legs were throbbing and I would have to stop midway, and I'd have
to sit down," said Mulvey, of Oakdale, who stopped taking the
medication even before her doctor ran a blood test showing she had
suffered muscle damage from the statin. "This wasn't normal for me. I
wasn't short of breath - my muscles were screaming.

"And I'm a very vigorous person," Mulvey added. "For me to be
complaining about something is unusual."

Harvey Gardner, a 73-year- old from Huntington, started taking a
different statin, Zocor, March 10. After just a few doses, he said, he
started feeling "lousy."

"The symptoms were dramatic," Gardner said. "I had pain in my arms and
my legs. ... I felt like I had arthritis all over my body."

The pain subsided when he quit taking the drug, but now he wonders
whether the numbness he's had in his toes for several years might be a
side effect of another statin, Mevacor, that he took several years
ago. Doctors have diagnosed the numbness as peripheral neuropathy,
which is listed as one of the potential side effects of statins.

Millions of Americans now take statins, a class of medications whose
remarkable ability to lower blood cholesterol levels has endowed them
with virtual miracle drug status. But many who take the drugs worry
about the effects they may have on their kidneys, liver and muscles,
and a consumer advocacy group's call in June to ban Crestor, the
newest statin, has reawakened concerns about the potential side
effects. Officials for AstraZeneca, which makes Crestor, have
dismissed the consumer group's allegations as inaccurate and
misleading. "Statins overall are remarkably safe," said Gary Bruell, a
spokesman for AstraZeneca. "Every drug ever invented has adverse
effects."

A rare side effect

Rhabdomyolysis, a breakdown of muscle fibers that can cause kidney
damage and may be fatal, is an extremely rare side effect, occurring
in one in 10,000 patients, drug manufacturers say. But up to 5 percent
of statin patients suffer non-life-threatening muscle pain disorders
that can nevertheless be debilitating, according to doctors who have
studied statin-related muscle syndromes. And, they say, certain
patients - smaller people, women, the elderly, and athletes and people
who exercise a lot - may be more vulnerable. People of Japanese
descent also are at higher risk, as are patients with some other
medical complications.

"I think the muscle part of the statins is underappreciated," said Dr.
Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at Hartford Hospital
and author of a paper on statin-associated muscle disease published in
the Journal of the American Medical Association in April 2003. "Some
people - not everybody, but a fair number of people - get a mild
myalgia [muscle pain] on the drug. With some of these patients, it can
be extreme."

Public Citizen Health Research Group, a consumer organization, called
on the Food and Drug Administration in 2001 to add a new warning,
known as a black box warning, to the labels on statins, emphasizing
that patients must notify their doctors if they experience muscle
pain, tenderness and weakness, the symptoms that may precede
rhabdomyolysis. The FDA has not taken any action, and an FDA official,
Dr. Mary Parks, would not comment on the issue last week. At the time
Public Citizen made its request, 72 deaths during a three-year period
had been linked to statin use; 20 of those were linked to Baycol,
which the FDA withdrew from the market the same year.

Dr. Robert Rosenson, director of preventative cardiology at
Northwestern's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, whose review of
statin-induced myopathy was published in the American Journal of
Medicine in March, said 3 percent to 5 percent of statin patients
experience muscle problems. He often tries switching drugs or lowering
the dose, he said, but "some people can't tolerate any dose of a
statin."

Still, not all physicians recognize the link between the drugs and the
muscle syndromes, Thompson said, and some of his colleagues dismiss it
as insignificant. "A lot of lipid experts say: 'The myalgia stuff you
talk about doesn't exist,'" he said. "I say, 'You're not taking care
of enough patients.'"

Jeanne Bruderman is one patient whose physicians did not recognize a
link: After going through surgery to treat back problems, she
experienced pain, weakness and cramps in her arms and legs and
tingling in her fingers. She sought help from a rheumatologist, a
neurosurgeon and a pain-management doctor. Finally, a physician's
assistant mentioned the symptoms could be related to statins and
ordered a blood test to measure levels of the enzyme creatine kinase,
an indication of muscle damage. "I nearly fell off my chair," said
Bruderman, who lives in Bellport, is only 39 and had been put on
Lipitor 19 months earlier. She quit the drugs and says the tingling in
her fingers has subsided.

Wonder drugs?

Many cardiologists consider statins to be wonder drugs - especially
for people who are at high risk for cardiovascular disease. "You can't
go to a cardiology meeting and ask who's on the drug without
everyone's hand going up," Thompson said. He takes a statin himself,
and acknowledged that he serves as a consultant to several
pharmaceutical companies that make them. But, he said, "they do have
nagging side effects in some people."

That description doesn't quite capture the experience of Rena Sweeney,
a physical education teacher in upstate Kinderhook who was raised in
Yonkers and now lives in what she calls "a whirlwind of pain."
Sweeney, who is 53, started taking a low dose of Lipitor around the
end of October, after blood tests showed her total cholesterol was
239. By the time her family came to visit around Thanksgiving, she
said she couldn't even enjoy their company.

"I was feeling old and shriveled up, fatigued," she said. Until then,
Sweeney said, she had been the kind of person who rarely even suffered
a cold. "I'm a P.E. teacher, and I am in very, very good shape; I work
out all the time."

Her leg muscles had started twitching, and her legs had started
feeling weak, "like rubber." A blood test showed she had elevated
creatine kinase levels, an indication of muscle damage, but the level
was not high enough to convince her doctor that it was related to the
medication. Her doctor thought she was having panic attacks.

Once an avid skier, Sweeney was barely able to complete two runs down
the mountain last winter. The pain in her legs was so intense at
times, she said, "I was crying, the fronts of my calves, my shins,
were killing me. I felt poisoned." She feared she may have developed
lupus or a neurological illness, and saw several specialists to rule
out connective-tissue diseases.

An acquaintance who is an orthopedic surgeon was the first to ask
whether she had started taking any new medications - and advised her
to quit the drug immediately.

Sweeney stopped taking Lipitor on New Year's Eve and said her weakness
and the "shriveled-up feeling" are gone, though she still has muscle
pain after exertion, even gardening.

A spokeswoman for Pfizer, maker of Lipitor, declined to comment on the
product's safety. In clinical trials, 5.6 percent of patients taking a
20-milligram dose of Lipitor reported myalgia or muscle pain, compared
to 1.1 percent of subjects taking a placebo, according to the
prescribing information. At a 40-milligram dose, 5.1 percent of
patients taking Lipitor reported arthralgia or joint pain, compared to
1.5 percent on placebo.

Sweeney said doctors have been unable to give her a definitive answer
about what triggered her symptoms. Such myalgia can occur without the
elevated enzyme levels that mean muscle damage has resulted in protein
leaking out of the muscle cells into the blood. Doctors who followed
four patients at Scripps Mercy Hospital Clinical Research Center in
San Diego found the patients were able to guess correctly whether they
were given statins or placebos, based on their muscle pain and
performance on strength tests, even though they had normal creatine
kinase levels in their blood.

A number of other small studies have shown statins may exacerbate
muscle injury during exercise. A study of 58 healthy men at the
University of Pittsburgh in 1997, for example, found that those taking
Mevacor (lovastatin) had much higher creatine kinase levels after 45
minutes of downhill walking on a treadmill than a group taking a
placebo.

Jim Baggett, a housing inspector in Wilmington, N.C., said he started
taking Zocor in July 2002 and became unable to do yardwork, couldn't
get through his usual 2 1/2-hour weekend workouts and developed a
cough, numbness in his feet, joint aches, weakness and tremors.

Baggett, who is 58, underwent thousands of dollars' worth of tests to
rule out Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, tuberculosis and
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, among other diseases. All of the test
results were negative. Since quitting the drug, Baggett said, his
health has improved, but he is not yet symptom-free.

"I'm not one to say, 'Don't take it' - I'm not a doctor," Baggett
said. "But at least be aware of what the problems are."

Tony Plohoros, a spokesman for Merck, which makes Zocor and Mevacor,
said side effects from both drugs are rare. "Both Mevacor and Zocor
have excellent safety profiles," he said, adding that Merck is seeking
FDA permission to sell Mevacor without a prescription. "The 20
milligram dose has shown in clinical trials to have roughly the same
side effects as a placebo."

Risks and benefits

The risk-to-benefit ratio of taking a statin must be evaluated for
each patient individually, said Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of Public
Citizen.

"There are millions of people getting statins who shouldn't be getting
statins," Wolfe said. "These drugs have been especially useful for
people when they are used for secondary prevention," in patients with
established heart disease who are at risk for another heart attack, he
said - and for them, "the benefits outweigh the risks."

For people who don't have heart disease and who have no other risk
factors, he said, "the risks outweigh the benefits."

Dr. Mary Parks, deputy director of the FDA's division of metabolic and
endocrine drug products, said she could not comment on the consumer
group's 2001 petition to the agency to strengthen warnings on statins.
She said the labels contain warnings already, and doctors need to
convey the information to their patients.

"People need to be aware that with any drug, there are going to be
side effects," Parks said. "If you're taking this product and having
aches and pains and it is in some way affecting daily activity, you
need to contact your physician and talk about it. You may need to do a
trial and go off the medicine. It may go away. It may also not be the
medication.

"Even in milder cases, it's worth people paying attention to it and
not ignoring it," she said. In some cases of rhabdomyolysis, "if you
can stop it early on, it may be of benefit to the patient."

1) This wasn't normal for me...My muscles were screaming.' - Eileen
Mulvey, right, who was unable to climb stairs for two weeks after she
started taking Crestor 2) 'The symptoms were dramatic. I had pain in
my arms and my legs I felt like I had arthritis all over my body.' -
Harvey Gardner, who began having symptoms after taking a few does of
Zocar 3) 'A lot of lipid experts say: "The myalgia (pain) stuff you
talk about doesn't exist." I say: "You're not taking care of enough
patients.'' - Dr. Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at
Hartford Hospital 4) 'With any drug, there are going to be side
effects. If you're taking this product and having aches and pains and
it is in some way affecting daily activity, you need to contact your
physician and talk about it It may also not be the medication.' - Dr.
Mary Parks of the FDA's division of metabolic and endocrine drug
products.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

TC

[email hidden] (fresh~horses) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

When statins cause problems
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-dscovn3924010aug10,0,5063441.story?coll=ny-health-big-pix

Side effects of cholesterol-fighting drugs get attention in wake of
concern about Crestor

"I think the muscle part of the statins is underappreciated," said Dr.
Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at Hartford Hospital.

BY RONI RABIN
STAFF WRITER

August 10, 2004

Eileen Mulvey is a spry 70-year-old who's usually up and down the
steps to her second floor co-op a dozen times a day. But in February,
two weeks after she started taking Crestor to lower her cholesterol,
she couldn't make it up the stairs.

"My legs were throbbing and I would have to stop midway, and I'd have
to sit down," said Mulvey, of Oakdale, who stopped taking the
medication even before her doctor ran a blood test showing she had
suffered muscle damage from the statin. "This wasn't normal for me. I
wasn't short of breath - my muscles were screaming.

"And I'm a very vigorous person," Mulvey added. "For me to be
complaining about something is unusual."

Harvey Gardner, a 73-year- old from Huntington, started taking a
different statin, Zocor, March 10. After just a few doses, he said, he
started feeling "lousy."

"The symptoms were dramatic," Gardner said. "I had pain in my arms and
my legs. ... I felt like I had arthritis all over my body."

The pain subsided when he quit taking the drug, but now he wonders
whether the numbness he's had in his toes for several years might be a
side effect of another statin, Mevacor, that he took several years
ago. Doctors have diagnosed the numbness as peripheral neuropathy,
which is listed as one of the potential side effects of statins.

Millions of Americans now take statins, a class of medications whose
remarkable ability to lower blood cholesterol levels has endowed them
with virtual miracle drug status. But many who take the drugs worry
about the effects they may have on their kidneys, liver and muscles,
and a consumer advocacy group's call in June to ban Crestor, the
newest statin, has reawakened concerns about the potential side
effects. Officials for AstraZeneca, which makes Crestor, have
dismissed the consumer group's allegations as inaccurate and
misleading. "Statins overall are remarkably safe," said Gary Bruell, a
spokesman for AstraZeneca. "Every drug ever invented has adverse
effects."

A rare side effect

Rhabdomyolysis, a breakdown of muscle fibers that can cause kidney
damage and may be fatal, is an extremely rare side effect, occurring
in one in 10,000 patients, drug manufacturers say. But up to 5 percent
of statin patients suffer non-life-threatening muscle pain disorders
that can nevertheless be debilitating, according to doctors who have
studied statin-related muscle syndromes. And, they say, certain
patients - smaller people, women, the elderly, and athletes and people
who exercise a lot - may be more vulnerable. People of Japanese
descent also are at higher risk, as are patients with some other
medical complications.

"I think the muscle part of the statins is underappreciated," said Dr.
Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at Hartford Hospital
and author of a paper on statin-associated muscle disease published in
the Journal of the American Medical Association in April 2003. "Some
people - not everybody, but a fair number of people - get a mild
myalgia [muscle pain] on the drug. With some of these patients, it can
be extreme."

Public Citizen Health Research Group, a consumer organization, called
on the Food and Drug Administration in 2001 to add a new warning,
known as a black box warning, to the labels on statins, emphasizing
that patients must notify their doctors if they experience muscle
pain, tenderness and weakness, the symptoms that may precede
rhabdomyolysis. The FDA has not taken any action, and an FDA official,
Dr. Mary Parks, would not comment on the issue last week. At the time
Public Citizen made its request, 72 deaths during a three-year period
had been linked to statin use; 20 of those were linked to Baycol,
which the FDA withdrew from the market the same year.

Dr. Robert Rosenson, director of preventative cardiology at
Northwestern's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, whose review of
statin-induced myopathy was published in the American Journal of
Medicine in March, said 3 percent to 5 percent of statin patients
experience muscle problems. He often tries switching drugs or lowering
the dose, he said, but "some people can't tolerate any dose of a
statin."

Still, not all physicians recognize the link between the drugs and the
muscle syndromes, Thompson said, and some of his colleagues dismiss it
as insignificant. "A lot of lipid experts say: 'The myalgia stuff you
talk about doesn't exist,'" he said. "I say, 'You're not taking care
of enough patients.'"

Jeanne Bruderman is one patient whose physicians did not recognize a
link: After going through surgery to treat back problems, she
experienced pain, weakness and cramps in her arms and legs and
tingling in her fingers. She sought help from a rheumatologist, a
neurosurgeon and a pain-management doctor. Finally, a physician's
assistant mentioned the symptoms could be related to statins and
ordered a blood test to measure levels of the enzyme creatine kinase,
an indication of muscle damage. "I nearly fell off my chair," said
Bruderman, who lives in Bellport, is only 39 and had been put on
Lipitor 19 months earlier. She quit the drugs and says the tingling in
her fingers has subsided.

Wonder drugs?

Many cardiologists consider statins to be wonder drugs - especially
for people who are at high risk for cardiovascular disease. "You can't
go to a cardiology meeting and ask who's on the drug without
everyone's hand going up," Thompson said. He takes a statin himself,
and acknowledged that he serves as a consultant to several
pharmaceutical companies that make them. But, he said, "they do have
nagging side effects in some people."

That description doesn't quite capture the experience of Rena Sweeney,
a physical education teacher in upstate Kinderhook who was raised in
Yonkers and now lives in what she calls "a whirlwind of pain."
Sweeney, who is 53, started taking a low dose of Lipitor around the
end of October, after blood tests showed her total cholesterol was
239. By the time her family came to visit around Thanksgiving, she
said she couldn't even enjoy their company.

"I was feeling old and shriveled up, fatigued," she said. Until then,
Sweeney said, she had been the kind of person who rarely even suffered
a cold. "I'm a P.E. teacher, and I am in very, very good shape; I work
out all the time."

Her leg muscles had started twitching, and her legs had started
feeling weak, "like rubber." A blood test showed she had elevated
creatine kinase levels, an indication of muscle damage, but the level
was not high enough to convince her doctor that it was related to the
medication. Her doctor thought she was having panic attacks.

Once an avid skier, Sweeney was barely able to complete two runs down
the mountain last winter. The pain in her legs was so intense at
times, she said, "I was crying, the fronts of my calves, my shins,
were killing me. I felt poisoned." She feared she may have developed
lupus or a neurological illness, and saw several specialists to rule
out connective-tissue diseases.

An acquaintance who is an orthopedic surgeon was the first to ask
whether she had started taking any new medications - and advised her
to quit the drug immediately.

Sweeney stopped taking Lipitor on New Year's Eve and said her weakness
and the "shriveled-up feeling" are gone, though she still has muscle
pain after exertion, even gardening.

A spokeswoman for Pfizer, maker of Lipitor, declined to comment on the
product's safety. In clinical trials, 5.6 percent of patients taking a
20-milligram dose of Lipitor reported myalgia or muscle pain, compared
to 1.1 percent of subjects taking a placebo, according to the
prescribing information. At a 40-milligram dose, 5.1 percent of
patients taking Lipitor reported arthralgia or joint pain, compared to
1.5 percent on placebo.

Sweeney said doctors have been unable to give her a definitive answer
about what triggered her symptoms. Such myalgia can occur without the
elevated enzyme levels that mean muscle damage has resulted in protein
leaking out of the muscle cells into the blood. Doctors who followed
four patients at Scripps Mercy Hospital Clinical Research Center in
San Diego found the patients were able to guess correctly whether they
were given statins or placebos, based on their muscle pain and
performance on strength tests, even though they had normal creatine
kinase levels in their blood.

A number of other small studies have shown statins may exacerbate
muscle injury during exercise. A study of 58 healthy men at the
University of Pittsburgh in 1997, for example, found that those taking
Mevacor (lovastatin) had much higher creatine kinase levels after 45
minutes of downhill walking on a treadmill than a group taking a
placebo.

Jim Baggett, a housing inspector in Wilmington, N.C., said he started
taking Zocor in July 2002 and became unable to do yardwork, couldn't
get through his usual 2 1/2-hour weekend workouts and developed a
cough, numbness in his feet, joint aches, weakness and tremors.

Baggett, who is 58, underwent thousands of dollars' worth of tests to
rule out Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, tuberculosis and
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, among other diseases. All of the test
results were negative. Since quitting the drug, Baggett said, his
health has improved, but he is not yet symptom-free.

"I'm not one to say, 'Don't take it' - I'm not a doctor," Baggett
said. "But at least be aware of what the problems are."

Tony Plohoros, a spokesman for Merck, which makes Zocor and Mevacor,
said side effects from both drugs are rare. "Both Mevacor and Zocor
have excellent safety profiles," he said, adding that Merck is seeking
FDA permission to sell Mevacor without a prescription. "The 20
milligram dose has shown in clinical trials to have roughly the same
side effects as a placebo."

Risks and benefits

The risk-to-benefit ratio of taking a statin must be evaluated for
each patient individually, said Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of Public
Citizen.

"There are millions of people getting statins who shouldn't be getting
statins," Wolfe said. "These drugs have been especially useful for
people when they are used for secondary prevention," in patients with
established heart disease who are at risk for another heart attack, he
said - and for them, "the benefits outweigh the risks."

For people who don't have heart disease and who have no other risk
factors, he said, "the risks outweigh the benefits."

Dr. Mary Parks, deputy director of the FDA's division of metabolic and
endocrine drug products, said she could not comment on the consumer
group's 2001 petition to the agency to strengthen warnings on statins.
She said the labels contain warnings already, and doctors need to
convey the information to their patients.

"People need to be aware that with any drug, there are going to be
side effects," Parks said. "If you're taking this product and having
aches and pains and it is in some way affecting daily activity, you
need to contact your physician and talk about it. You may need to do a
trial and go off the medicine. It may go away. It may also not be the
medication.

"Even in milder cases, it's worth people paying attention to it and
not ignoring it," she said. In some cases of rhabdomyolysis, "if you
can stop it early on, it may be of benefit to the patient."

1) This wasn't normal for me...My muscles were screaming.' - Eileen
Mulvey, right, who was unable to climb stairs for two weeks after she
started taking Crestor 2) 'The symptoms were dramatic. I had pain in
my arms and my legs I felt like I had arthritis all over my body.' -
Harvey Gardner, who began having symptoms after taking a few does of
Zocar 3) 'A lot of lipid experts say: "The myalgia (pain) stuff you
talk about doesn't exist." I say: "You're not taking care of enough
patients.'' - Dr. Paul Thompson, director of preventive cardiology at
Hartford Hospital 4) 'With any drug, there are going to be side
effects. If you're taking this product and having aches and pains and
it is in some way affecting daily activity, you need to contact your
physician and talk about it It may also not be the medication.' - Dr.
Mary Parks of the FDA's division of metabolic and endocrine drug
products.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

As you know Andrew I am not a proponent of the business as usual and
then when they kill and disable people see if you can catch them
system.

I am a proponent and advocate of changing the system and the pharma
way of doing "business", getting regulatory agencies to do their jobs
and stop collusion with industry and bringing meds formularies back to
sanity. The WHO meds formulary lists approximately 400 essential
proven medications. There are about 4,000 medications, most me-too
drugs, being schlepped by pharma.

We *know* why medical costs beat out rates of inflation: Stockholders
share not healthcare.

Zee

Quoted message said:

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

TC

I agree.

MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
begin radiation treatment.
Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
room for her.

"I waited one month, two months, three months," she recalled in an interview
yesterday. "I just felt rage and anxiety."

Ms. Cilinger decided to do more than seethe: She turned to the courts to
initiate a class-action suit against those who made her wait. And this week,
Mr. Justice John Bishop of the Quebec Superior Court gave the suit the green
light -- setting the stage for what is believed to be the first collective
lawsuit against a fundamental aspect of Canada's medical system; the
maligned hospital waiting list.

"I don't want other sick people to have to go through the kind of suffering
I did," Ms. Cilinger said.

The lawsuit seeks damages on behalf of 10,000 eligible breast-cancer
patients in Quebec who have waited more than eight weeks for radiation
therapy since October of 1997. Named in the suit are 12 Quebec hospitals. In
all, damages could come to as much as $50-million.

"This is the first time someone has decided to attack the source of
problems -- the waiting list," said lawyer Michel Savonitto, who is
representing the cancer victims. "We're lucky to have the system we do in
Canada. But if we want to supply proper care and commit to doing it, then we
can't do it halfway."

At the heart of the lawsuit is the question of what is considered a
reasonable delay before getting radiation treatment after surgery. Breast
cancer health-care specialists recommend radiation within eight weeks after
an operation, and no more than 12 weeks.

According to the Fraser Institute, which conducts an annual survey of
hospital waiting lists, Quebec has the second-longest waiting time for
radiation therapy for breast cancer sufferers -- 10 weeks, according to the
2003 survey.

Quebec Superior Court accepted eight to 12 weeks as the medically acceptable
delay.

For Ms. Cilinger and Johanne Lavoie, the wait was too long. It isn't known
whether their wait worsened their disease -- they say they are in good
health -- but both say the lengthy delay was excruciating, physically and
psychologically.

"It was an inhuman thing to live through," said Ms. Lavoie, who was
diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 1999. Like other patients in Quebec
at the time, Ms. Lavoie waited for months, and then was sent by the
provincial health authorities to the United States because treatment
couldn't be provided in the province. She travelled every week with her
five-year-old son to southern Vermont, a four-hour bus ride away.

"Any compensation I get from this lawsuit is secondary,' she said. "The long
delays were hell. I was living with a sword of Damocles over my head. I want
to give women hope that they won't have to live through the same thing I
did."

Ms. Cilinger, three months after her operation, finally called her daughter
in her native Turkey for help. Within 24 hours, she had secured a radiation
appointment at an Istanbul hospital. She returned to Canada $15,000 poorer
and decided to take action.

Hospitals named in the suit declined to comment. But the lawsuit means
hospital administrators would have to get in the witness box and defend
their decisions.

Michael McBane of the Canadian Health Coalition said the lawsuit shows
citizens are trying to hold governments accountable for cuts to health care.
"It points to the fact that governments in Canada have abdicated their duty
of care, and citizens are going to hold their governments to account," he
said.

"If people's health is being jeopardized in terms of extensive waits for
cancer care, that's irresponsible. At the end of the day, these are
decisions that are consequences of federal budgets and provincial budgets,
where the economists and the MBAs cut health-care budgets."

Quebec has been described as a paradise for class-action suits. Still,
experts say the suit could have repercussions across Canada.

"To the extent that people are using legal mechanisms to try to put pressure
on governments, this could have ripple effects throughout the health-care
system," said Nola Ries of the University of Alberta. "It may be an
incentive for other people to say they'll try the courts if political
pressure is not having the effect of shortening waiting lists."

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Now if you want to let multi billion dollar industries use the fact of
having to compensate those they have harmed and killed as an excuse
for their OBSCENE greed then you are a fool. The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all! They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business. You
really are a hipocritical moron. And you claim to be a follower of
jesus??? what a joke. What do you think he would say about what is
going on in this society? Did he believe in screwing the masses so
that the few can become richer and more powerful? The drug industry
is the most profitable in the world and you have the NERVE to claim
they charge so much because of lawsuits???!!! If Jesus were here
today he would be out their with his freakin whip laying waste to the
most greedy and corrupt among us as he did 2000 years ago. Where do
you think is the first place he would go.

… Jesus brandished the whip with so much fury that the four elders
fled through the door where they had first appeared. When Jesus
reached the top, he shouted with authority....

Jesus: Get out of here, merchants of Satan, out of here!!

(that is exactly what the drug industry is by the way)

The uproar was frightening. Jesus overturned the tables full of
money which rolled down the stairway. The people threw themselves at
the money and the money changers were so enraged that they, too,
jumped over the people. Again and again Jesus hurled his whip at the
tax scales. The cows and sheep were so terrified they ran in all
directions…. People screamed and the vendors cursed at the top of
their voices. Pigeons as well as fists flew into the air…. As the
tumult got more intense, soldiers from the Antonia Tower began to
mobilize. But Jesus continued talking with a passion…

Jesus: Tell Caiphas we shall confront him tomorrow in his palace, and
tomorrow afternoon, we shall accuse Herod in his den. And then,
Pontius Pilate will be next. God will triumph on the third day! The
great day of the Lord has come, the Day of Liberation

(I can picture him today saying something like "we shall confront the
drug industry and tomorrow the food industry, and then the polution
industry, and George Bush will be next."😉

I think you need to get a reality check if you are going to keep
claiming you are a follower of Jesus.

"Wolfbrother" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Now if you want to let multi billion dollar industries use the fact of
having to compensate those they have harmed and killed as an excuse
for their OBSCENE greed then you are a fool. The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all! They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business. You
really are a hipocritical moron. And you claim to be a follower of
jesus??? what a joke. What do you think he would say about what is
going on in this society? Did he believe in screwing the masses so
that the few can become richer and more powerful? The drug industry
is the most profitable in the world and you have the NERVE to claim
they charge so much because of lawsuits???!!! If Jesus were here
today he would be out their with his freakin whip laying waste to the
most greedy and corrupt among us as he did 2000 years ago. Where do
you think is the first place he would go.

He would go to court? He would go to Rome and have the laws changed?
He went to court remember and what happened?
His whole message was to give to God was is Gods and forget the rest of your
rant.

Quoted message said:

. Jesus brandished the whip with so much fury that the four elders
fled through the door where they had first appeared. When Jesus
reached the top, he shouted with authority....

Jesus: Get out of here, merchants of Satan, out of here!!

There were in the temple area and should have not been there as part of the
temple. I do believe some thing about a tax collector as one of his friends.

Quoted message said:

(that is exactly what the drug industry is by the way)

The uproar was frightening. Jesus overturned the tables full of
money which rolled down the stairway. The people threw themselves at
the money and the money changers were so enraged that they, too,
jumped over the people. Again and again Jesus hurled his whip at the
tax scales. The cows and sheep were so terrified they ran in all
directions.. People screamed and the vendors cursed at the top of
their voices. Pigeons as well as fists flew into the air.. As the
tumult got more intense, soldiers from the Antonia Tower began to
mobilize. But Jesus continued talking with a passion.

Jesus: Tell Caiphas we shall confront him tomorrow in his palace, and
tomorrow afternoon, we shall accuse Herod in his den. And then,
Pontius Pilate will be next. God will triumph on the third day! The
great day of the Lord has come, the Day of Liberation

(I can picture him today saying something like "we shall confront the
drug industry and tomorrow the food industry, and then the polution
industry, and George Bush will be next."😉

I think you need to get a reality check if you are going to keep
claiming you are a follower of Jesus.

You forget the solidarity movement in Poland. Your communist friends don't
believe in Christianity. The first thing that goes along with socialism is
the loss of religion.

fresh~horses said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

As you know Andrew I am not a proponent of the business as usual and
then when they kill and disable people see if you can catch them
system.

Nor am I. However, there are systems in place that prevent harmful drugs of questionable benefit from ever
reaching the marketplace. Lawsuits are not part of these systems.

Quoted message said:

I am a proponent and advocate of changing the system and the pharma
way of doing "business", getting regulatory agencies to do their jobs
and stop collusion with industry and bringing meds formularies back to
sanity. The WHO meds formulary lists approximately 400 essential
proven medications. There are about 4,000 medications, most me-too
drugs, being schlepped by pharma.

Imho, lawsuits won't change the system.

Quoted message said:

We *know* why medical costs beat out rates of inflation: Stockholders
share not healthcare.

Lawsuits do drive up healthcare costs.

You remain in my prayers, Zee whom I love.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have the unimaginable peace
of His everlasting kingdom.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

Wolfbrother said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

Time for a few massive class-action lawsuits. Lawyers need to get onto
this gravy train.

And folks in the adjoining thread wonder why U.S. medical costs continue
to beat out rates of inflation.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Now if you want to let multi billion dollar industries use the fact of
having to compensate those they have harmed and killed as an excuse
for their OBSCENE greed then you are a fool.

This is not about my wants or needs.

Quoted message said:

The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all!

In a democratic society where there is government for the people and by the people, the people are hardly
powerless.

Quoted message said:

They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business.

Most (if not all) pharma corporations consider the costs of extensive testing and drug trials to be the cost of
doing business. They would like nothing better than to hold the patent on medications that have proven benefits
with zero potential for side effects. The side effects are a potential liability rather than an predictable cost
of doing business.

Quoted message said:

You
really are a hipocritical moron.

Ouch. You may have at the other cheek. Sorry, you dislike what I have written.

Quoted message said:

And you claim to be a follower of
jesus???

It is not a claim.

Quoted message said:

what a joke.

Nor a joke.

Quoted message said:

What do you think he would say about what is
going on in this society?

Christ teaches from John 12:

25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who
hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever
serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be.
My Father will honor the one who serves me.

Quoted message said:

Did he believe in screwing the masses so
that the few can become richer and more powerful?

No.

Quoted message said:

The drug industry
is the most profitable in the world

Does the richest man in the world work for the drug industry?

Quoted message said:

and you have the NERVE to claim
they charge so much because of lawsuits???!!!

Sorry you do not like my writing truthfully.

Quoted message said:

If Jesus were here
today he would be out their with his freakin whip laying waste to the
most greedy and corrupt among us as he did 2000 years ago.

In truth, Jesus would be wined and dined by the greedy and corrupt and He would eat with them. And, this would
anger you.

Quoted message said:

Where do
you think is the first place he would go.

The home of a greedy and corrupt sinner.

Quoted message said:

… Jesus brandished the whip with so much fury that the four elders
fled through the door where they had first appeared. When Jesus
reached the top, he shouted with authority....

Jesus: Get out of here, merchants of Satan, out of here!!

(that is exactly what the drug industry is by the way)

Last I checked, the drug industry is not selling their wares in churches or other places where God is worshipped.

Quoted message said:

The uproar was frightening. Jesus overturned the tables full of
money which rolled down the stairway. The people threw themselves at
the money and the money changers were so enraged that they, too,
jumped over the people. Again and again Jesus hurled his whip at the
tax scales. The cows and sheep were so terrified they ran in all
directions…. People screamed and the vendors cursed at the top of
their voices. Pigeons as well as fists flew into the air…. As the
tumult got more intense, soldiers from the Antonia Tower began to
mobilize. But Jesus continued talking with a passion…

Jesus: Tell Caiphas we shall confront him tomorrow in his palace, and
tomorrow afternoon, we shall accuse Herod in his den. And then,
Pontius Pilate will be next. God will triumph on the third day! The
great day of the Lord has come, the Day of Liberation

(I can picture him today saying something like "we shall confront the
drug industry and tomorrow the food industry, and then the polution
industry, and George Bush will be next."😉

(It seems you do not know Christ).

Quoted message said:

I think you need to get a reality check if you are going to keep
claiming you are a follower of Jesus.

It is not a claim. It remains my choice to walk with Him.

It also remains choice to pray for you, neighbor whom I love.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the
unimaginable riches of His everlasting kingdom.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

This is not about my wants or needs.

Everything is about you.

Carey Gregory said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

This is not about my wants or needs.

Everything is about you.

No.

Everything is about the person whom I serve.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all!

In a democratic society where there is government for the people and by the people, the people are hardly
powerless.

Quoted message said:

They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business.

Most (if not all) pharma corporations consider the costs of extensive testing and drug trials to be the cost of
doing business. They would like nothing better than to hold the patent on medications that have proven benefits
with zero potential for side effects. The side effects are a potential liability rather than an predictable cost
of doing business.

What the hell?? This is some scary stuff. And I thought you could
say nothing more that would shock me with its total idiocy. How is it
that such an ignorant naive moron can exist?? I am totaly
flabbergasted. Do you have any concept of what you are saying?? The
fact that you make claims like this just demonstrates how utterly
clueless you are. Only naive morons believe the myth that we live in
a real democracy where "the people have the power." What the hell is
wrong with you. You can not be this dumb it is just not possible.
Actualy do not even bother responding to my post I know how you will
do it already.

Quoted message said:

What the hell??

That is where the Devil lives.

Quoted message said:

How is it that such an ignorant naive moron can exist??

I exist because god made me.

Quoted message said:

Do you have any concept of what you are saying??

Yes.

Quoted message said:

What the hell is wrong with you.

I serve jesus and tell the truth.

Quoted message said:

You can not be this dumb it is just not possible.

With god anything is possible.

ok so maybe not 100% what you would say but close enough.

Wolfbrother said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all!

In a democratic society where there is government for the people and by the people, the people are hardly
powerless.

Quoted message said:

They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business.

Most (if not all) pharma corporations consider the costs of extensive testing and drug trials to be the cost of
doing business. They would like nothing better than to hold the patent on medications that have proven benefits
with zero potential for side effects. The side effects are a potential liability rather than an predictable cost
of doing business.

What the hell?? This is some scary stuff.

Sorry the truth frightens you.

Quoted message said:

And I thought you could
say nothing more that would shock me with its total idiocy. How is it
that such an ignorant naive moron can exist?? I am totaly
flabbergasted. Do you have any concept of what you are saying?? The
fact that you make claims like this just demonstrates how utterly
clueless you are. Only naive morons believe the myth that we live in
a real democracy where "the people have the power."

It is your choice not to vote.

Quoted message said:

What the hell is
wrong with you. You can not be this dumb it is just not possible.
Actualy do not even bother responding to my post I know how you will
do it already.

It would appear that you don't... not even close.

You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

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http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:07 -0700, "Robert" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

snip...

Quoted message said:

MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
begin radiation treatment.
Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
room for her.

As if this kind of thing never happens in the United States?? Please.
It is MUCH worse here.

43+ million of us don't even have the opportunity to MAKE this call.
No insurance.

[email hidden] (Wolfbrother) wrote in message

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Now if you want to let multi billion dollar industries use the fact of
having to compensate those they have harmed and killed as an excuse
for their OBSCENE greed then you are a fool. The fact is that if
there was no ability for the nearly powerless public to hold multi
billion dollar industries and corporations acountable they would have
absolutely no insentive to even consider the well being of the public
at all! They are bad enough in that area already and mostly consider
harming and killing people just another cost of doing business. You
really are a hipocritical moron. And you claim to be a follower of
jesus??? what a joke. What do you think he would say about what is
going on in this society? Did he believe in screwing the masses so
that the few can become richer and more powerful? The drug industry
is the most profitable in the world and you have the NERVE to claim
they charge so much because of lawsuits???!!! If Jesus were here
today he would be out their with his freakin whip laying waste to the
most greedy and corrupt among us as he did 2000 years ago. Where do
you think is the first place he would go.

? Jesus brandished the whip with so much fury that the four elders
fled through the door where they had first appeared. When Jesus
reached the top, he shouted with authority....

Jesus: Get out of here, merchants of Satan, out of here!!

(that is exactly what the drug industry is by the way)

The uproar was frightening. Jesus overturned the tables full of
money which rolled down the stairway. The people threw themselves at
the money and the money changers were so enraged that they, too,
jumped over the people. Again and again Jesus hurled his whip at the
tax scales. The cows and sheep were so terrified they ran in all
directions?. People screamed and the vendors cursed at the top of
their voices. Pigeons as well as fists flew into the air?. As the
tumult got more intense, soldiers from the Antonia Tower began to
mobilize. But Jesus continued talking with a passion?

Jesus: Tell Caiphas we shall confront him tomorrow in his palace, and
tomorrow afternoon, we shall accuse Herod in his den. And then,
Pontius Pilate will be next. God will triumph on the third day! The
great day of the Lord has come, the Day of Liberation

(I can picture him today saying something like "we shall confront the
drug industry and tomorrow the food industry, and then the polution
industry, and George Bush will be next."😉

<snip>

Good one. So Jesus was a socialist and an anti-greed activist. Right
on.

Wouldn't it be great to see the American Religious-Right and other
American christians follow Jesus' example?

TC

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:07 -0700, "Robert" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

snip...

Quoted message said:

MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
begin radiation treatment.
Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
room for her.

As if this kind of thing never happens in the United States?? Please.
It is MUCH worse here.

43+ million of us don't even have the opportunity to MAKE this call.
No insurance.

In truth, you could make the call. Most physicians in the U.S. do not
turn away folks because someone is uninsured.

If you receive professional services of *any* kind, you should pay for
them whether you are insured or not.

Truth is simple.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

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http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:07 -0700, "Robert" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

snip...

Quoted message said:

MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
begin radiation treatment.
Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
room for her.

As if this kind of thing never happens in the United States?? Please.
It is MUCH worse here.

43+ million of us don't even have the opportunity to MAKE this call.
No insurance.

Hi George

I suspect the OP is lifting stuff off the Fraser Think Tank (snort)
website. Anyway. As you know Quebec plays it's own game with it's own
rules. Who knows what venue....

Mrs. Cilinger has my sympathy. Let's hope she doesn't march out the
door at the next election and vote for the politicians who brought
this mess to being: conservative governments. You'd be surprised
George, how many people whine about what these govts do, then vote for
them because, at the last minute prior to a provincial election, for
example, they decide to cover, for seniors say, what they de-insured
just after the last election.

I suspect Mrs. Cilinger was put down on the waiting list for these
reasons:

1. Conservative ideology is pushing cut backs to the health care
system so that people can't get timely access and demand private
for-profit clinics be opened. The governments who made the cutbacks
have busy busy little Goebbel's practitioners filling the media with
that as solution. Little known is the fact that these private for
profit (read, not you or me Georgie) clinics will be funded by public
health care money from those who wouldn't be able to afford to cross
the threshold.

2. She had a type of breast cancer that is less dangerous than someone
at the top of the list. Triage, as Bob pointed out in another thread.

I have a friend who was diagnosed with a very invasive and dangerous
type of breast cancer last summer. Within a week she had a mastectomy.
Within two she had begun subsequent treatment which included radiation
and chemo.

The shortages and long waiting lists, if they exist, have been created
by a government eager to dip it's hands and those of it's cronies in
the largest money maker going.

It would all be solved if governments which made cuts to the public
system put the money back there, instead of in private care.

Healthcare not stockholders share.

Zee
(zwalanga@yahoodotcom)

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:07 -0700, "Robert" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

snip...

Quoted message said:

MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
begin radiation treatment.
Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
room for her.

As if this kind of thing never happens in the United States?? Please.
It is MUCH worse here.

43+ million of us don't even have the opportunity to MAKE this call.
No insurance.

In truth, you could make the call. Most physicians in the U.S. do not
turn away folks because someone is uninsured.

Right. And who would know better than someone who has a vested
interest in believing that? You can't get into most doctors' offices
without an appointment. They ask lots of questions up front, including
how will you pay for services. Tell them you're uninsured and tell
them you're not able to pay much and see how fast they show you the door.

You'll be given warm and cordial directions to the health department
where you can talk all you want about your poverty. When you can get
an appointment with an administrative type. And when they can fit you
in. And when you go for appointments and have to wait four hours with
no explanation.

I've walked people through these hallowed Hippocratic halls. And guess
how wonderful it is if your English is accented.

Quoted message said:

If you receive professional services of *any* kind, you should pay for
them whether you are insured or not.

The Chung 2MillionDollarSelfInterestDiet. It's his personal variation
of that old Christian "Love thy neighbor" injunction. He adds, "But
make sure to present the bill. And ask for collateral up front."

Yesterday he did his "let them eat cake" about people who can't afford
insurance. The post went like this:

Quoted message said:

MikeV said:

What do you recommend for the 40 or so percent of Americans who can
no longer afford insurance because it is increasing at 20% or so per
year?

I would recommend folks shelter a portion of their income (that
portion they have from the difference in premiums between a $100
deductible policy and high deductible policy) with an HSA/MSA
*before* they become chronically ill.

Did Chung even read the question?

Whether it's an insurance premium or a savings account or the
combination, the money still has to be available to do this. No money,
no plan. Not enough money, no plan.

And an HSA/MSA requires the purchase of insurance, anyway. It still
costs essentially the same as a low-deductible policy as outlined by
Chung. Yes, over time, if people keep putting in savings and don't use
them, the dollars will multiply. But those dollars will be needed for
all the things not covered by the high-deductible policy. Dental,
optical, routine visit copays, major med copays, etc.

Here's a good bit of simplified info about these plans. It doesn't
work quite like Chung implies.
<http://internetinsuranceinc.com/msa.html> Notice that it includes the
implication of a 28% tax bracket. The highest. They're saying it's for
the well-to-do. They expect people to put in more than $10,000 a year.

An excerpt from the page:
"To have a Health Savings Account (Medical Savings Account), a
taxpayer must be under 65, the age of Medicare eligibility, when
opening an account.
***The HSA (MSA) can only be opened once a high-deductible health
insurance policy has been purchased.***
Your HSA (MSA) health premiums may not be paid from deposits made to
the HSA (MSA) account; the cost of the major medical insurance is
separate from those funds held in the Health Savings Account (Medical
Savings Account)."

*** emphasis mine.

Chung seems to think that money is easy to come by for everyone. He
has boasted that he's well-paid. I'm happy for him that he makes a
good living, but he has zero information about the middle and lower
middle class life. If he ever did, he has forgotten. And he certainly
shows no compassion for them.

Bob

Bob (this one) said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:07 -0700, "Robert" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

snip...

>MONTREAL -- Anahit Cilinger won't soon forget her despair in the fall and
>winter of 1999. Fresh from surgery to have a cancerous tumour removed from
>her breast, the Montreal grandmother anxiously awaited an appointment to
>begin radiation treatment.
>Ms. Cilinger called her Montreal hospital every day for a slot. Sometimes,
>she called twice a day. Every time, the answer was the same: There was no
>room for her.

As if this kind of thing never happens in the United States?? Please.
It is MUCH worse here.

43+ million of us don't even have the opportunity to MAKE this call.
No insurance.

In truth, you could make the call. Most physicians in the U.S. do not
turn away folks because someone is uninsured.

Right.

Glad you agree.

You remain in my prayers, neighbor whom I love.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that
you too will have eternal life and the unfathomable riches of His
everlasting kingdom.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

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