British druggists push OTC statins in pubs

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > > > i never did go back to see due to his 'bully' ways)
> > > Then he would go out of business and then he would sign up with

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > canadian
> > > health system.
> > > >
> > > > oh..... the private clinic needed $2K minimum for a sleep
study......
> > and
> > > > while this was being talked about it was discovered that if

*I*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was

Quoted message said:

> > paying
> > > > for it, then it could probably be done for only $650......

yeah.....

Quoted message said:

> > this
> > > > experience really made me feel good about 'for profit'

medicare

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > > NOT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > And so you thought that you should have the study for free? If

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study
> > was
> > > done by the canadian system would it be for free? Free for who

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> somebody
> > > does in fact pay for it. You dearly pay for it in taxes.
> > >
> > >
> > no...... it was the bullying that turned me off...... then the
> > "negotiability of the process"
> > when your price can drop to 25% of one of the discussed values of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> study
> > in a matter of a few minutes of "gee, i don't think my insurance

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> cover
> > that, gee i don't think i can afford that right now, i'll save up

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it"
> >
> > for profit medicare scares me
> >
> >
> It scares most people including me which is why most are non profit.

When

Quoted message said:

> money is the bottom line and it starts to impact the way you do

things

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

then
> you start getting something more like the canadian system of

rationing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

care
> and quality.

my experience with the socialized medicine system has been the exact
opposite of this above statement

Well that is where the real problem lies. If one uses one's own realm of
experience or if you use the below average, poor, or those for whom the
system did not work. Both systems can work and both systems have failed.
Canada decided to cover everyone which is noble but then instills waits

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

order to stay in business which is not noble and dangerous.

You call everyone a liar. Are you the only truth seeker? Canandian
medicine delivers better RESULTS than in the USA.

There is no I in Team. She mentions herself in terms of I this and that and
the assumption being because it doesn't happen to her then it doesn't
happen. I am not arrogant enough to simplify things to just what I
experience.
As to your last statement, how many canadians go to the US and then see how
many US citizens go to Canada for medical treatments? I am glad you did not
say that canadian medical care is free as they pay dearly for it.

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>
> > > i never did go back to see due to his 'bully' ways)
> > Then he would go out of business and then he would sign up with

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> canadian
> > health system.
> > >
> > > oh..... the private clinic needed $2K minimum for a sleep

study......

Quoted message said:

> and
> > > while this was being talked about it was discovered that if *I*

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> paying
> > > for it, then it could probably be done for only $650......

yeah.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> this
> > > experience really made me feel good about 'for profit' medicare
> > >
> > > NOT
> > >
> > >
> > And so you thought that you should have the study for free? If the

study

Quoted message said:

> was
> > done by the canadian system would it be for free? Free for who as
somebody
> > does in fact pay for it. You dearly pay for it in taxes.
> >
> >
> no...... it was the bullying that turned me off...... then the
> "negotiability of the process"
> when your price can drop to 25% of one of the discussed values of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study
> in a matter of a few minutes of "gee, i don't think my insurance

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cover
> that, gee i don't think i can afford that right now, i'll save up

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it"

Quoted message said:

>
> for profit medicare scares me
>
>
It scares most people including me which is why most are non profit.

When

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

money is the bottom line and it starts to impact the way you do things

then

Quoted message said:

you start getting something more like the canadian system of rationing

care

Quoted message said:

and quality.

my experience with the socialized medicine system has been the exact
opposite of this above statement

i had an emergency c-section to deliver my child..... i had told them in
advance, fix everything you find wrong when you are in there, because

*I*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

won't be back for a 2nd surgery, thank you very much....... and they
did...... including the tubal ligation that i had requested....... of
course, my surgery was all moved up because of the emergency

c-section....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

however, i'm sure the optional surgery of a tubal ligation would have

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

done in due course with the medical system we have

Most people who speak badly of Canadian medicine are Americans who fear
universal health care coverage, or followers of Ayn Rand who think that

the

Quoted message said:

only morality comes from the barrel of the bank passbook.

If you will notice my friend on how I got into this whole discussion was on
canadians blasting and pounding posts after posts about American medicine
that has no bearing on their lives. I do not fear your life on dream of
having socialist medicine in the US.
To the contrary, canadians fear the infringement of For-Profit medical
companies going into Canada because of the state of affairs up there. We
have HMO's here that are for all practical purposes like no choice
organizations. You should know that.

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <> wrote in message .net...

Quoted message said:

You are ignoring the fact that Canada spends about half as much on
medical care as the USA, based on GDP. All that extra spending in the

USA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has done nothing to improve our outcomes.

So, you are saying that Americans will end up better off with socialized
medicare?
AND they will reduce costs to boot?

You really have to ask how they will reduce costs?
For-profit hospitals reduce costs all right. No doubt about that. That's
where the canadian system has more in common with than with the predominant
non-profit hospitals.

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not perfect in that waiting is an aspect that is intentionally

designed

Quoted message said:

into the system. Canada takes pride into making it's citizens wait.

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in the
USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > > > i never did go back to see due to his 'bully' ways)
> > > > Then he would go out of business and then he would sign up

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

> > > canadian
> > > > health system.
> > > > >
> > > > > oh..... the private clinic needed $2K minimum for a sleep
> study......
> > > and
> > > > > while this was being talked about it was discovered that if

*I*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was
> > > paying
> > > > > for it, then it could probably be done for only $650......
yeah.....
> > > this
> > > > > experience really made me feel good about 'for profit'

medicare

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >
> > > > > NOT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > And so you thought that you should have the study for free? If

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> study
> > > was
> > > > done by the canadian system would it be for free? Free for who

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > somebody
> > > > does in fact pay for it. You dearly pay for it in taxes.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > no...... it was the bullying that turned me off...... then the
> > > "negotiability of the process"
> > > when your price can drop to 25% of one of the discussed values

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

> > study
> > > in a matter of a few minutes of "gee, i don't think my insurance

will

Quoted message said:

> > cover
> > > that, gee i don't think i can afford that right now, i'll save

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

> it"
> > >
> > > for profit medicare scares me
> > >
> > >
> > It scares most people including me which is why most are non

profit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When
> > money is the bottom line and it starts to impact the way you do

things

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> then
> > you start getting something more like the canadian system of

rationing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> care
> > and quality.
>
>
> my experience with the socialized medicine system has been the exact
> opposite of this above statement

Well that is where the real problem lies. If one uses one's own realm

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

experience or if you use the below average, poor, or those for whom

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

system did not work. Both systems can work and both systems have

failed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Canada decided to cover everyone which is noble but then instills

waits

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

order to stay in business which is not noble and dangerous.

You call everyone a liar. Are you the only truth seeker? Canandian
medicine delivers better RESULTS than in the USA.

There is no I in Team. She mentions herself in terms of I this and that

and

Quoted message said:

the assumption being because it doesn't happen to her then it doesn't
happen. I am not arrogant enough to simplify things to just what I
experience.
As to your last statement, how many canadians go to the US and then see

how

Quoted message said:

many US citizens go to Canada for medical treatments? I am glad you did

not

Quoted message said:

say that canadian medical care is free as they pay dearly for it.

More Americans go to Canada for medical treatment than vice versa. You
loose.

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not perfect in that waiting is an aspect that is intentionally

designed

Quoted message said:

into the system. Canada takes pride into making it's citizens wait.

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in

the

Quoted message said:

USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

i love how Robert 'reads into things' to suit his cause

i can talk about my own experiences, AND i could have easily talked about
the experiences of my family, friends, extended family, etc...... but i
talked for myself and of myself only

i have to book a "general" apt with my GP about 2 weeks in advance....... if
i have a more urgent appt need, i'm in to see the Dr that day......typically
within 4 hours of my calling the office

yup..... terrible socialised medicine

What the [censored] does this have to do with nutrition. Robert, take your
bigotted anti-foreigner ugly-american [censored] up attitude the hell out
of this newsgroup and take it someplace else.

TC

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <> wrote in message .net...

Quoted message said:

You are ignoring the fact that Canada spends about half as much on
medical care as the USA, based on GDP. All that extra spending in the

USA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has done nothing to improve our outcomes.

So, you are saying that Americans will end up better off with socialized
medicare?
AND they will reduce costs to boot?

You really have to ask how they will reduce costs?
For-profit hospitals reduce costs all right. No doubt about that. That's
where the canadian system has more in common with than with the predominant
non-profit hospitals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in the
USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

In the VA system a doctor ordered scan or appointment with a
'specialist' usually takes 6 to 8 MONTHS.

Here's a quote from a VA letter canceling an upcoming appointment for
a cat scan that I had been waiting 6 months for:

June 02 2004

Dear Mr Vuotto

The following clinic appointment(s) were CANCLED

Friday June 28th 2004 .......

and rescheduled at

December 03 2004

We regret any inconvenience this may cause.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not perfect in that waiting is an aspect that is intentionally

designed

Quoted message said:

into the system. Canada takes pride into making it's citizens wait.

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in

the

Quoted message said:

USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

You should rejoice and enjoy at that then as the canadians do.
You shouldn't mind it much if it were for breast cancer treatment.

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not perfect in that waiting is an aspect that is intentionally

designed

Quoted message said:

into the system. Canada takes pride into making it's citizens wait.

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in

the

Quoted message said:

USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

i love how Robert 'reads into things' to suit his cause

i can talk about my own experiences, AND i could have easily talked about
the experiences of my family, friends, extended family, etc...... but i
talked for myself and of myself only

I have also been told that for some appointments such as physicals or non
urgent things then weeks yes. With urgent things such as acutely ill I have
never waited more than hours. If off doctor hours then I go to the emergency
room where they triage so waits are in the hours. I prefer my primary doctor
becuase it takes less time than seeing an ER doctor.

Quoted message said:

i have to book a "general" apt with my GP about 2 weeks in advance.......

if

Quoted message said:

i have a more urgent appt need, i'm in to see the Dr that

day......typically

Quoted message said:

within 4 hours of my calling the office

yup..... terrible socialised medicine

Yes same here. Tell me about your cancer? Do you want me to find somebody
out there who had a problem with your socialized medicine since you believe
everything based on personal testimonials? I love when you guys deny any
waits as if though it is not even there just because it never happens to
you.
In am not poor and have a good job so therefore the things that George says
are not true because it never happens to me.
I don't say that and I don't excuse it as a good thing as you canadians seem
to do. I think if you actually admit that it does exist, the waiting, that
it would devestate you. Believe your governments propaganda that it doesn't
exist or if it does exists it is rare or if it is not rare then it is
necessary for the general good.
What happens to you as an individual is of no concern to them.

Quoted message said:

"Frank Vuotto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

In the VA system a doctor ordered scan or appointment with a
'specialist' usually takes 6 to 8 MONTHS.

The poor don't have access to CT scan according to George so you are
fortunate. That is the system that George is trying to get for everyone. You
are the ideal example of why you should not be dependent on the government.
I don't know it you know this or not but the VA is government run for ex
military and is free to those patients. Some HMO's are run the same way. I
did not say that there are not bad examples in the US where people have
experienced a taste of canadian style care and that is why I do not fear it
nor is it seriously considered as a national program. Just keep on telling
people about your experience with the VA and with some HMO's and it will
never happen that we have a national program in the US mandatory for all. We
have national programs out of necessity for some part of the population such
as medicare and state programs and they stink.

Quoted message said:

Here's a quote from a VA letter canceling an upcoming appointment for
a cat scan that I had been waiting 6 months for:

June 02 2004

Dear Mr Vuotto

The following clinic appointment(s) were CANCLED

Friday June 28th 2004 .......

and rescheduled at

December 03 2004

We regret any inconvenience this may cause.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > > "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > > > > i never did go back to see due to his 'bully' ways)
> > > > > Then he would go out of business and then he would sign up

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> > > > canadian
> > > > > health system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > oh..... the private clinic needed $2K minimum for a sleep
> > study......
> > > > and
> > > > > > while this was being talked about it was discovered that

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*I*

Quoted message said:

> was
> > > > paying
> > > > > > for it, then it could probably be done for only $650......
> yeah.....
> > > > this
> > > > > > experience really made me feel good about 'for profit'

medicare

Quoted message said:

> > > > > >
> > > > > > NOT
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > And so you thought that you should have the study for free?

If

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

> > study
> > > > was
> > > > > done by the canadian system would it be for free? Free for

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as

Quoted message said:

> > > somebody
> > > > > does in fact pay for it. You dearly pay for it in taxes.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > no...... it was the bullying that turned me off...... then the
> > > > "negotiability of the process"
> > > > when your price can drop to 25% of one of the discussed values

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> > > study
> > > > in a matter of a few minutes of "gee, i don't think my

insurance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will
> > > cover
> > > > that, gee i don't think i can afford that right now, i'll save

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for
> > it"
> > > >
> > > > for profit medicare scares me
> > > >
> > > >
> > > It scares most people including me which is why most are non

profit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> When
> > > money is the bottom line and it starts to impact the way you do

things

Quoted message said:

> > then
> > > you start getting something more like the canadian system of

rationing

Quoted message said:

> > care
> > > and quality.
> >
> >
> > my experience with the socialized medicine system has been the

exact

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > opposite of this above statement
>
> Well that is where the real problem lies. If one uses one's own

realm

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> experience or if you use the below average, poor, or those for whom

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> system did not work. Both systems can work and both systems have

failed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Canada decided to cover everyone which is noble but then instills

waits

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> order to stay in business which is not noble and dangerous.

You call everyone a liar. Are you the only truth seeker?

Canandian

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

medicine delivers better RESULTS than in the USA.

There is no I in Team. She mentions herself in terms of I this and that

and

Quoted message said:

the assumption being because it doesn't happen to her then it doesn't
happen. I am not arrogant enough to simplify things to just what I
experience.
As to your last statement, how many canadians go to the US and then see

how

Quoted message said:

many US citizens go to Canada for medical treatments? I am glad you did

not

Quoted message said:

say that canadian medical care is free as they pay dearly for it.

More Americans go to Canada for medical treatment than vice versa. You
loose.

Doctors in Canada are not allowed to see paying patients other than their
government referred people. Explain to me why Americans would go to Canada
when the cost of procedures are the same? The cost of living is higher in
Canada so it is not cheaper.
Some Americans are going to Thailand for cosmetic surgery not paid for by
insurance. They can stay at a 5 star hotel for their convesclence with
nurses and doctors there. It is very cheap and the quality is very good. I
recommend it.

"tcomeau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What the [censored] does this have to do with nutrition. Robert, take your
bigotted anti-foreigner ugly-american [censored] up attitude the hell out
of this newsgroup and take it someplace else.

TC the moron doesn't realize that the post was started by his canadian
friend Zee and posted to
Sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,sci.med.nutrition,sci.med.pharmacy,talk.politics.
medicine
as a part of her trolling. He thinks it is only to Sci.med.nutrition.
You ever see the TV program Joe Smoe?
What do you call Canadians who are bigotted anti-American?
Joe Smoes?

Quoted message said:

TC

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <> wrote in message .net...
>
> You are ignoring the fact that Canada spends about half as much

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> medical care as the USA, based on GDP. All that extra spending in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

USA

Quoted message said:

> has done nothing to improve our outcomes.
>

So, you are saying that Americans will end up better off with

socialized

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

medicare?
AND they will reduce costs to boot?

You really have to ask how they will reduce costs?
For-profit hospitals reduce costs all right. No doubt about that. That's
where the canadian system has more in common with than with the

predominant

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

non-profit hospitals.

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have also been told that for some appointments such as physicals or non
urgent things then weeks yes. With urgent things such as acutely ill I

have

Quoted message said:

never waited more than hours. If off doctor hours then I go to the

emergency

Quoted message said:

room where they triage so waits are in the hours. I prefer my primary

doctor

Quoted message said:

becuase it takes less time than seeing an ER doctor.

ditto...... the annual physical i book a month in advance..... however i
know when the annual physical is...... not a big deal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i have to book a "general" apt with my GP about 2 weeks in

advance.......

Quoted message said:

if

Quoted message said:

i have a more urgent appt need, i'm in to see the Dr that

day......typically

Quoted message said:

within 4 hours of my calling the office

yup..... terrible socialised medicine

Yes same here. Tell me about your cancer? Do you want me to find somebody
out there who had a problem with your socialized medicine since you

believe

Quoted message said:

everything based on personal testimonials? I love when you guys deny any
waits as if though it is not even there just because it never happens to
you.

My aunt died of lung cancer..... wanna talk about it?

Quoted message said:

In am not poor and have a good job so therefore the things that George

says

Quoted message said:

are not true because it never happens to me.
I don't say that and I don't excuse it as a good thing as you canadians

seem

Quoted message said:

to do. I think if you actually admit that it does exist, the waiting, that
it would devestate you. Believe your governments propaganda that it

doesn't

Quoted message said:

exist or if it does exists it is rare or if it is not rare then it is
necessary for the general good.
What happens to you as an individual is of no concern to them.

i have never said that there is no waiting.... as a matter of fact i told
you of a case where i did have to wait.... far too long...... because i
didn't 'fit the profile' of [censored] suffering....... when in fact i did

that's ONCE in 48 years and over 15 operations (not to count the Dr's
visits) that the system has failed me........

"Robert" <> wrote in message .com...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doctors in Canada are not allowed to see paying patients other than their
government referred people. Explain to me why Americans would go to Canada
when the cost of procedures are the same? The cost of living is higher in
Canada so it is not cheaper.
Some Americans are going to Thailand for cosmetic surgery not paid for by
insurance. They can stay at a 5 star hotel for their convesclence with
nurses and doctors there. It is very cheap and the quality is very good. I
recommend it.

HUH????????????
someone who does not have a healthcare card will certainly have to pay the
Dr for the services rendered......

where do you get that Doctors are not allowed to treat someone without a
healthcare card????

and yes..... there will be a charge for services

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <> wrote in message .com...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doctors in Canada are not allowed to see paying patients other than

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

government referred people. Explain to me why Americans would go to

Canada

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when the cost of procedures are the same? The cost of living is higher

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Canada so it is not cheaper.
Some Americans are going to Thailand for cosmetic surgery not paid for

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

insurance. They can stay at a 5 star hotel for their convesclence with
nurses and doctors there. It is very cheap and the quality is very good.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recommend it.

HUH????????????
someone who does not have a healthcare card will certainly have to pay the
Dr for the services rendered......

Talking about surgery in particular as somebody who has the flu will not
want to go all the way to canada just to see a GP. Most canadians go to the
US for surgery such as hernia's.
We are not just talking about the doctor but having the surgery in a
hospital that has a 6 month waiting list for canadians. Should americans
have priority over canadian's with a healthcare card?
I say yes and that way it would generate badly needed revenue but then again
it would be considered for-profit operations on the part of the canadians.

Quoted message said:

where do you get that Doctors are not allowed to treat someone without a
healthcare card????

and yes..... there will be a charge for services

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have also been told that for some appointments such as physicals or

non

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

urgent things then weeks yes. With urgent things such as acutely ill I

have

Quoted message said:

never waited more than hours. If off doctor hours then I go to the

emergency

Quoted message said:

room where they triage so waits are in the hours. I prefer my primary

doctor

Quoted message said:

becuase it takes less time than seeing an ER doctor.

ditto...... the annual physical i book a month in advance..... however i
know when the annual physical is...... not a big deal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i have to book a "general" apt with my GP about 2 weeks in

advance.......

Quoted message said:

if

Quoted message said:

i have a more urgent appt need, i'm in to see the Dr that

day......typically

Quoted message said:

within 4 hours of my calling the office

yup..... terrible socialised medicine

Yes same here. Tell me about your cancer? Do you want me to find

somebody

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out there who had a problem with your socialized medicine since you

believe

Quoted message said:

everything based on personal testimonials? I love when you guys deny any
waits as if though it is not even there just because it never happens to
you.

My aunt died of lung cancer..... wanna talk about it?

Quoted message said:

In am not poor and have a good job so therefore the things that George

says

Quoted message said:

are not true because it never happens to me.
I don't say that and I don't excuse it as a good thing as you canadians

seem

Quoted message said:

to do. I think if you actually admit that it does exist, the waiting,

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it would devestate you. Believe your governments propaganda that it

doesn't

Quoted message said:

exist or if it does exists it is rare or if it is not rare then it is
necessary for the general good.
What happens to you as an individual is of no concern to them.

i have never said that there is no waiting.... as a matter of fact i told
you of a case where i did have to wait.... far too long...... because i
didn't 'fit the profile' of [censored] suffering....... when in fact i did

that's ONCE in 48 years and over 15 operations (not to count the Dr's
visits) that the system has failed me........

You are one of the top 7% Tiger Lily.

Canadians are fed up with their state-run health care system which was put
in place in the 1970s. In fact, 93 percent of those polled last month said
that improving health care should be the government's top priority. In
another poll, 74 percent of respondents supported the idea of user fees --
which have been outlawed since 1984.

State-managed medicine has led to not enough doctors, nurses or hospital
beds to meet the demand.

On one recent day, emergency rooms in 23 of Toronto's 25 hospitals had to
turn away ambulances -- and police officers had to shoot to death a
distraught father who had taken a doctor hostage in an attempt to get
treatment for his sick baby.

In Winnipeg, "hallway medicine" has become so common that hallway stretcher
locations have permanent numbers.

Ambulances filled with ill patients have repeatedly stacked up this winter
in the parking lot of Vancouver General Hospital, where an estimated 20
percent of patients in the midst of heart attacks must wait an hour or more
for treatment.

Waiting lists for surgery in some Canadian hospitals can stretch from months
to as long as five years.
Canada is experimenting with a two-tier, public-private health system -- but
it applies only to dentists and veterinarians. Michael Bliss, a medical
historian recently wrote in The National Post newspaper: "So we have the
absurdity in Canada that you can get faster care for your gum disease than
your cancer, and probably more attentive care for your dog than your
grandmother."

The waiting list for magnetic resonance imaging is so long that one man
recently reserved a session for himself at a private animal hospital which
had such a machine. He registered under the name Fido.

Allan Rock, Canada's health minister, recently wrote: "Forget about equal
access. Let people buy their way to the front of the line."

Source: James Brooke, "Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South,"
New York Times, January 16, 2000.

For more on Health issues http://www.ncpa.org/pi/health/hedex1.html

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Ok here are several more that doesn't matter and please use the triage term
or any other canadian mantra like need not greed to excuse them.

Hospital care horror stories: the results of 'restructuring'

Left to die in a hospital hallway

Ed Whitehill had never been in a hospital in his life, until he arrived at
the Peterborough Civic last year. The next day his daughter and
granddaughter found him dead on a stretcher in the hallway.

He died of a pulmonary embolism blood clots in the lung. His widow, Helen,
blames his death on government cuts to hospital funding.

Ed Whitehill was taken to the hospital by ambulance, and spent a whole day
in the hallway, hooked up to an intravenous bag. His wife begged hospital
officials to find him a bed for the night, then left at 8 p.m. He died in
the night.

"It was an awful situation and I blame the government," says Helen
Whitehall. "I wonder if Mike Harris would have to stay in a hallway if he
got sick."

Paralyzed after 12-hour surgery delay

Fred Gregory of Carry Place, near Trenton, is now paralyzed. He's a victim
of hospital cuts and restructuring, according to his doctor.

The 42-year-old was suffering internal bleeding last February. But instead
of being taken to Kingston for treatment, he spent crucial hours in an
ambulance being transported to Toronto, because Kingston General didn't have
space for him.

It took 12 hours before he had surgery, and during that time the bleeding
put pressure on his spinal cord, leaving him paralyzed from the neck down.

His family blames his condition on the long delay. "Time was crucial. If
they had got him sooner they could have reversed the damage," says his
mother-in-law, Carol Hammell.

Search for bed ends in death

When Lucia Lacava developed severe pneumonia last February, she was rushed
to her local hospital in downtown Toronto. But instead of being treated
there, she was sent by ambulance to a suburban hospital 40 kilometres away.
She died 15 minutes after arriving.

The emergency room at Wellesley in Toronto did examine Lacava. Their record
describes her condition: "In acute distress. Audible wheezes and crackles.
SOB (shortness of breath). Patient continually stated, ïI'm going to die.' "
Her chart then summarizes the dilemma: "Requires ICU (intensive care unit)
admission, but no beds available here."

So she was put in an ambulance and sent west. Seven minutes after she
arrived at Humber River Regional hospital, her heart stopped. Eight minutes
later she was dead.

ER wait ends in death for 5-year-old

Kyle Martyn's parents took their five-year-old son to Credit Valley Hospital
in Mississauga last February, vomiting and with a temperature of 105
degrees. However, they had to wait four hours in the busy emergency room
before getting treatment. He never recovered.

Kyle's sore throat had turned into streptococcal toxic shock, a rare but
deadly infection. The doctors acted quickly once he was in the treatment
room. But his situation deteriorated, and he was flown by helicopter to Sick
Kid's Hospital in downtown Toronto. He died 10 hours later after two cardiac
arrests.

"We just don't have enough acute care beds to accommodate the patients,"
said Jocelyn Garrett, as spokesperson for Credit Valley. "Budgets are
shrinking, but the demand keeps growing."

The Toronto Star and The Peterborough Examiner

Frank Vuotto said:

Quoted message said:

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in the
USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

In the VA system a doctor ordered scan or appointment with a
'specialist' usually takes 6 to 8 MONTHS.

Here's a quote from a VA letter canceling an upcoming appointment for
a cat scan that I had been waiting 6 months for:

June 02 2004

Dear Mr Vuotto

The following clinic appointment(s) were CANCLED

Friday June 28th 2004 .......

and rescheduled at

December 03 2004

We regret any inconvenience this may cause.

Frank

What you describe is America's experience with Canadian-style medicine.

Truth is simple.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

I'm really enjoying your posts Robert because everyone of them proves
my point: conservative government cutbacks have caused delays and
waits in the system. These cutbacks, done so cynically to cause people
to suffer and die needlessly, were done to justify bringing in
for-profit healthcare.

These delays and disgusting deaths and pain were virtually unheard of
before these cutbacks began.

Today you posted a story about how former (read FORMER) CONSERVATIVE
premier of Ontario was being blamed by the families of the waiting and
dying for the CUTBACKS to the health care system.

Harris is gone. His conservative government which caused the CUTBACKS
is gone. One down, a couple more to go. The Canadian people will fight
back against right wing greed.

The other thing I'm really enjoying is knowing you are posting from
your job using your employer's computer, while you are being paid to
do your job.

Your job as a "healthcare professional".

Zee

Quoted message said:

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"George Conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> It's not perfect in that waiting is an aspect that is intentionally

designed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> into the system. Canada takes pride into making it's citizens wait.

You obviously never tried to make an appointment with a physician in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

USA, where they say, "Come in in 7 weeks." My wife has to make her
appointments about that far out.

i love how Robert 'reads into things' to suit his cause

i can talk about my own experiences, AND i could have easily talked about
the experiences of my family, friends, extended family, etc...... but i
talked for myself and of myself only

I have also been told that for some appointments such as physicals or non
urgent things then weeks yes. With urgent things such as acutely ill I have
never waited more than hours. If off doctor hours then I go to the emergency
room where they triage so waits are in the hours. I prefer my primary doctor
becuase it takes less time than seeing an ER doctor.

Quoted message said:

i have to book a "general" apt with my GP about 2 weeks in advance.......

if

Quoted message said:

i have a more urgent appt need, i'm in to see the Dr that

day......typically

Quoted message said:

within 4 hours of my calling the office

yup..... terrible socialised medicine

Yes same here. Tell me about your cancer? Do you want me to find somebody
out there who had a problem with your socialized medicine since you believe
everything based on personal testimonials? I love when you guys deny any
waits as if though it is not even there just because it never happens to
you.
In am not poor and have a good job so therefore the things that George says
are not true because it never happens to me.
I don't say that and I don't excuse it as a good thing as you canadians seem
to do. I think if you actually admit that it does exist, the waiting, that
it would devestate you. Believe your governments propaganda that it doesn't
exist or if it does exists it is rare or if it is not rare then it is
necessary for the general good.
What happens to you as an individual is of no concern to them.

Quoted message said: