Ok, what is with clipless or clips?

Quoted message said:

Clipless pedals have invisible clips.

Has Look discovered a way to bend light to make their stuff invisible? I *must*
have a pair *immediately!

Cheers, helen s ;-)

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

Quoted message said:

Anyway, what is clip vs clipless?

You say you use "normal old flat pedals". On some such pedals, you can get a
little metal or plastic "cage" or "cup" effect that is at the front of the
pedal. You place your toe in this, with the ball of your foot on the platform
pedal. This is a pedal with a toe*clip* Some toeclips have a strap which you
can tighten to secure your foot to the pedal.

Clipless pedals have a system where on the sole of the shoe you wear to cycle
is a cleat. The cleat clips into the pedal so your foot is securely held
without the need for a toeclip. Similar to the way a skiboot clips into the
binding on a ski.

As clipless pedals don't have a *toeclip* to keep you foot on the pedal, but a
*cleat* on the sole of the shoe, then this is why they are called clipless
pedals. But yes, you do clip in and clip out of your clipless pedals ;-)

There are various systems of clipless pedals available... Loook, spd, Time,
Wellgo, Eggbeaters... all variation on a theme and it's individual choice as to
which system you find best for you.

I changed to clipless from normal pedals because I was given a pair of Look
shoes (with cleats) for free. So I went out and got a set of Look pedals -
basic ones, not the ultra expensive type. They took a bit of getting used to -
I did the standard forgetting to unclip before the bike stopped, which resulted
in me finding the one positive of having a fat rear end - padding in a fall ;-)
Clipping in and out qucikly became second nature and I would not willingly go
back to "normal" pedals. Clipless are simply better at allowing you to pedal
efficiently. As you effectively pull on the upstroke of the pedal action, the
need to push on the downstroke is reduced - so better pedalling for less
effort. Certainly my knees noticed the difference.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Think about it, though. You get an inexpensive pedal and an inexpensive
shoe and it might work for you, but for most newbies, I say get solid
middle-of-the-line shoes, be prepared to pay 50-80 bucks. You -do- get

what

Quoted message said:

you pay for. You'll presumably be using these for 20-30 days per month

and

Quoted message said:

you want something that's durable, functional and comfortable. You go

cheap

Quoted message said:

on the shoe and I'd wonder if you'd not regret that. You also want them

to

Quoted message said:

look cool. Again, spending a lot of time in them.

On the pedals, don't get the very bottom of the line, go up one and get

the

Quoted message said:

SPD M520. Solid performers and something that you're gonna be depending

on

Quoted message said:

quite heavily.

Wellgo is a brand of Taiwanese pedals that is re-labeled by several brands
(Performance, Nashbar, Ritchey). Wellgo pedals are generally very good, and
half the price of Shimano equivalent. Wellgo "SPD-style" pedals come with a
variety of cleats. Some are interchangeable with Shimano, some not. I've
found that the pedals with the "98A" cleat usually are (both ways). I have
a few sets of "bottom-of-the-line" Shimano (515). I think I paid $32 last
year. They're fine, and considering they come with cleats (most pedals do),
which cost $20 separately, they were quite the deal. Perfectly good Wellgo
pedals are often sold as low as $20.

Road use is simple compared to off-road, anything that works well for MTB
is fine for the road, spending a little more for MTB pedals might be a good
idea, since the application is much more demanding.

Peter Cole said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Think about it, though. You get an inexpensive pedal and an inexpensive
shoe and it might work for you, but for most newbies, I say get solid
middle-of-the-line shoes, be prepared to pay 50-80 bucks. You -do- get
what you pay for. You'll presumably be using these for 20-30 days per month
you want something that's durable, functional and comfortable. You go
cheap on the shoe and I'd wonder if you'd not regret that. You also want them
to look cool. Again, spending a lot of time in them.

On the pedals, don't get the very bottom of the line, go up one and get the
SPD M520. Solid performers and something that you're gonna be depending
to quite heavily.

Wellgo is a brand of Taiwanese pedals that is re-labeled by several brands
(Performance, Nashbar, Ritchey). Wellgo pedals are generally very good, and
half the price of Shimano equivalent. Wellgo "SPD-style" pedals come with a
variety of cleats. Some are interchangeable with Shimano, some not. I've
found that the pedals with the "98A" cleat usually are (both ways). I have
a few sets of "bottom-of-the-line" Shimano (515). I think I paid $32 last
year. They're fine, and considering they come with cleats (most pedals do),
which cost $20 separately, they were quite the deal. Perfectly good Wellgo
pedals are often sold as low as $20.

Road use is simple compared to off-road, anything that works well for MTB
is fine for the road, spending a little more for MTB pedals might be a good
idea, since the application is much more demanding.

Good to know, and if you're experienced at this, it's silly -not- to shop
for deals. (note I said 'for most newbies'😉.

Just wanted the noobs to realize it's not that difficult to go to clipless,
find a shoe, and be happy, and that going 'inexpensive' had pitfalls. If
you're an experienced cyclist and you're taking your noob buddy in to get
shoes, and help with the selection, then sure, try some rebranded stuff.

I'm quite surprised, but shouldn't be, that I'm having absolutely zero
problems, no knee pain, nothing. Granted I've not taken this system on a
very long ride, and that may be when problems show up. I'm planning on
getting in a modest 30 miles or more this weekend on the flats to see how
things go, and then move up the distance.

But I'm loving them on the foothills! I'm getting so much power, I'm almost
skipping the back wheel when sprinting uphill and quickly accelerating.

-B

PK said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PK what? said:

I'm reminded of that joke every time the subject of clipping into
clipless pedals crops up!

I don't know what crowd you mix with but around here we step into the
pedals and engage the cleat.

Quoted message said:

You've got to admit, it is daft terminology! The only pedals with
clips are clipless while clipped pedals have straps and no
clips...

I think you've got your terms confused. Toe clips support the strap
and prevent the pedal from rolling forward when pedaling standing.
You would have noticed that when a clip breaks as they often did and
your foot rolls off the front of the pedal still strapped in... clip
dangling and tinkling on the pavement as it hangs from the strap.

Today, plastic clips last a bit longer but are still a pain.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

I know all that Jobst, but the terminology only makes sense if you know the
history. Show someone who has seen neither a clipless pedal and one with
cage and straps and ask which is clipless! When a newbie arrives on here
and says "Which foot should i put in the clip first?" - someone always asks
if they are talking about toe straps (clipped) or pedals the shoe clips into
(clipless).

I was just remarking that it is very much like tring to explain cricket to
someone who has never seen the game.

EG
From an online advice site: The shoe cleats required for clipless pedals
are basically shaped pieces of metal [Snip].......Basically, the best way
to begin is to clip one foot (the foot you normally begin with) into its
pedal....

pk

I've seen cricket and still don't get it. Runs or wickets? Which one
is important? No, don't answer. I really don't want to go there. I'm
still trying to understand clips.

On 04 Nov 2004 13:00:14 GMT, [email hidden]

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, what is clip vs clipless?

You say you use "normal old flat pedals". On some such pedals, you can get a
little metal or plastic "cage" or "cup" effect that is at the front of the
pedal. You place your toe in this, with the ball of your foot on the platform
pedal. This is a pedal with a toe*clip* Some toeclips have a strap which you
can tighten to secure your foot to the pedal.

Clipless pedals have a system where on the sole of the shoe you wear to cycle
is a cleat. The cleat clips into the pedal so your foot is securely held
without the need for a toeclip. Similar to the way a skiboot clips into the
binding on a ski.

As clipless pedals don't have a *toeclip* to keep you foot on the pedal, but a
*cleat* on the sole of the shoe, then this is why they are called clipless
pedals. But yes, you do clip in and clip out of your clipless pedals ;-)

There are various systems of clipless pedals available... Loook, spd, Time,
Wellgo, Eggbeaters... all variation on a theme and it's individual choice as to
which system you find best for you.

I changed to clipless from normal pedals because I was given a pair of Look
shoes (with cleats) for free. So I went out and got a set of Look pedals -
basic ones, not the ultra expensive type. They took a bit of getting used to -
I did the standard forgetting to unclip before the bike stopped, which resulted
in me finding the one positive of having a fat rear end - padding in a fall ;-)
Clipping in and out qucikly became second nature and I would not willingly go
back to "normal" pedals. Clipless are simply better at allowing you to pedal
efficiently. As you effectively pull on the upstroke of the pedal action, the
need to push on the downstroke is reduced - so better pedalling for less
effort. Certainly my knees noticed the difference.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

Ok, I've seen guys get of those "clipless" pedals and they clunk
around in those shoes. So if I go this route then I have to walk
around in these things until I can get to my office and change back to
sneakers (my normal cycling gear)?

[email hidden said:

"]

Rotation release came to bicycling from skiing where step-in
engagement and rotation release was introduced years earlier

Came from skiing? Unless you mean the very basic principle of push down to engage - twist to disengage I find it very hard to seen a carryover between skiing and cycling in this case. And at the push-and-twist level I think an explanation along the lines of parallell evolution is more probable. After all, how many realistic alternative methods are there to engage/disengage your foot from the pedal?

(hand operated? - no great improvement from clip+strap)
(pull to disengage - how to separate between power pull and dismount pull?)
(Push to disengage - see above
(pull to engage - that'd be a conflict of forces!)
(twist to engage - that could work...)

dgk said:

Ok, I've seen guys get of those "clipless" pedals and they clunk
around in those shoes. So if I go this route then I have to walk
around in these things until I can get to my office and change back to
sneakers (my normal cycling gear)?

There are different kinds of clipless -- SPDs have flat
cleats that don't interfere with your ability to walk. Look
into those if you're serious about clipless and put off by
clunky road cleats.

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester

http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
proud to be owned by a yorkie

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Just wanted the noobs to realize it's not that difficult to go to

clipless,

Quoted message said:

find a shoe, and be happy, and that going 'inexpensive' had pitfalls.

But that's my point, I don't think it does have "pitfalls". Spend more if
you want, but the cheap stuff works fine, particularly for entry-level road
use.

Quoted message said:

I'm quite surprised, but shouldn't be, that I'm having absolutely zero
problems, no knee pain, nothing. Granted I've not taken this system on a
very long ride, and that may be when problems show up.

Knee problems do only show up after significant mileage. My experience has
been that setting toe-in angle of the cleat is necessary, float isn't.

Quoted message said:

But I'm loving them on the foothills! I'm getting so much power, I'm

almost

Quoted message said:

skipping the back wheel when sprinting uphill and quickly accelerating.

You're getting more force. Any pedal that keeps your foot attached allows
you to pull up, achieving more force. Consider for a moment, if you haven't
already, what happens if that pedal should release when you're pulling up
hard. Pulling up is not necessary or desirable outside of racing. It's a
*really* bad idea when you're a clipless newb.

"dabac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rotation release came to bicycling from skiing where step-in
engagement and rotation release was introduced years earlier

Came from skiing? Unless you mean the very basic principle of push down
to engage - twist to disengage I find it very hard to seen a carryover
between skiing and cycling in this case. And at the push-and-twist
level I think an explanation along the lines of parallell evolution is
more probable. After all, how many realistic alternative methods are
there to engage/disengage your foot from the pedal?

Look, the French ski binding manufacturer, introduced the first clipless
pedal. The problem is very similar, as is the solution.

Peter Cole said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Just wanted the noobs to realize it's not that difficult to go to

clipless,

Quoted message said:

find a shoe, and be happy, and that going 'inexpensive' had pitfalls.

But that's my point, I don't think it does have "pitfalls". Spend more if
you want, but the cheap stuff works fine, particularly for entry-level road
use.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, b/c I want the best shoes I can
afford, but at a price/performance break, since I'm going to be in them all
the time. Don't want any loose threads unravelling at the side after 6
months, etc. You do get what you pay for. Now the actual pedals, I'd say of
course if you know of a 'sleeper' deal, or rebranding, by all means.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm quite surprised, but shouldn't be, that I'm having absolutely zero
problems, no knee pain, nothing. Granted I've not taken this system on a
very long ride, and that may be when problems show up.

Knee problems do only show up after significant mileage. My experience has
been that setting toe-in angle of the cleat is necessary, float isn't.

Yeah, my right foot feels perfect. (we'll see), but the left foot seems
like the neutral position is "\", or slightly toed-out, and my foot wants
to be more "|", or straight ahead - it feels slightly like it's slipping to
the toe-out on the left, and holding perfectly straight on the right. Both
were set up the same, AFAIK.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I'm loving them on the foothills! I'm getting so much power, I'm almost
skipping the back wheel when sprinting uphill and quickly accelerating.

You're getting more force. Any pedal that keeps your foot attached allows
you to pull up, achieving more force. Consider for a moment, if you haven't
already, what happens if that pedal should release when you're pulling up
hard. Pulling up is not necessary or desirable outside of racing. It's a
*really* bad idea when you're a clipless newb.

Now we say 'pull up', but I don't have any conscious notion of doing that,
though I must be. Definitely feel like my pedal 'circle' needs to be more
level - with toeclips I was pointing my toe too much, as I now know.

Thanks for the comments.

-B

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:24:57 -0500, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Think about it, though. You get an inexpensive pedal and an inexpensive
shoe and it might work for you, but for most newbies, I say get solid
middle-of-the-line shoes, be prepared to pay 50-80 bucks. You -do- get
what you pay for. You'll presumably be using these for 20-30 days per month
you want something that's durable, functional and comfortable. You go
cheap on the shoe and I'd wonder if you'd not regret that. You also want them
to look cool. Again, spending a lot of time in them.

On the pedals, don't get the very bottom of the line, go up one and get the
SPD M520. Solid performers and something that you're gonna be depending
to quite heavily.

Wellgo is a brand of Taiwanese pedals that is re-labeled by several brands
(Performance, Nashbar, Ritchey). Wellgo pedals are generally very good, and
half the price of Shimano equivalent. Wellgo "SPD-style" pedals come with a
variety of cleats. Some are interchangeable with Shimano, some not. I've
found that the pedals with the "98A" cleat usually are (both ways). I have
a few sets of "bottom-of-the-line" Shimano (515). I think I paid $32 last
year. They're fine, and considering they come with cleats (most pedals do),
which cost $20 separately, they were quite the deal. Perfectly good Wellgo
pedals are often sold as low as $20.

Road use is simple compared to off-road, anything that works well for MTB
is fine for the road, spending a little more for MTB pedals might be a good
idea, since the application is much more demanding.

Good to know, and if you're experienced at this, it's silly -not- to shop
for deals. (note I said 'for most newbies'😉.

Just wanted the noobs to realize it's not that difficult to go to clipless,
find a shoe, and be happy, and that going 'inexpensive' had pitfalls. If
you're an experienced cyclist and you're taking your noob buddy in to get
shoes, and help with the selection, then sure, try some rebranded stuff.

I'm quite surprised, but shouldn't be, that I'm having absolutely zero
problems, no knee pain, nothing. Granted I've not taken this system on a
very long ride, and that may be when problems show up. I'm planning on
getting in a modest 30 miles or more this weekend on the flats to see how
things go, and then move up the distance.

But I'm loving them on the foothills! I'm getting so much power, I'm almost
skipping the back wheel when sprinting uphill and quickly accelerating.

-B

I'll go to the LBS, prepared with potential prices. I like the guys
and want to help keep them in business, so if it costs a bit more,
that's ok. They're there when I need them.

dgk what? said:

Ok, I've seen guys get of those "clipless" pedals and they clunk
around in those shoes. So if I go this route then I have to walk
around in these things until I can get to my office and change back
to sneakers (my normal cycling gear)?

SPD cleats are recessed and the Shimano TO-93 shoe is a convenient
walking shoe while not compromising its bicycling features. It has
good rubber soles.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

dabac said:

Quoted message said:

Rotation release came to bicycling from skiing where step-in
engagement and rotation release was introduced years earlier

Quoted message said:

Came from skiing? Unless you mean the very basic principle of push
down to engage - twist to disengage I find it very hard to seen a
carryover between skiing and cycling in this case.

Look was the company that first mass marketed the ski binding and
later the bicycle cleat/pedal.

Quoted message said:

And at the push-and-twist level I think an explanation along the
lines of parallell evolution is more probable. After all, how many
realistic alternative methods are there to engage/disengage your
foot from the pedal?

Quoted message said:

(hand operated? - no great improvement from clip+strap)
(pull to disengage - how to separate between power pull and dismount
pull?)
(Push to disengage - see above
(pull to engage - that'd be a conflict of forces!)
(twist to engage - that could work...)

You can be sure the people in the business have studies this. I think
the current SPD cleat has the fewest drawbacks.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Benjamin Lewis said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

do not spam said:

Clipless are easier to get out of than toe clips.

Depends on how experienced you are with either.

Perhaps, but in my experience clipless were *much* easier to get out of
when I'd had about equal experience with each. This probably depends
somewhat on clipless pedal design, how tight you like your straps to be,
etc.

....and whether you used both cleats and clips...

--Blair
"Which I never did."

Blair P. Houghton said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

do not spam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Clipless are easier to get out of than toe clips.

Depends on how experienced you are with either.

Perhaps, but in my experience clipless were *much* easier to get out of
when I'd had about equal experience with each. This probably depends
somewhat on clipless pedal design, how tight you like your straps to be,
etc.

...and whether you used both cleats and clips...

--Blair
"Which I never did."

I didn't either, and I kept my straps loose enough that I could pull out
fairly easily without loosening them by hand. I still find it
significantly easier to get out of my clipless pedals.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.