Recumbent bicycles · Public discussion

Frank Olson & Peter Clinch & the Muslims

Started by Edward Dolan · · Last activity · 15 posts · 564 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Recumbent bicycles
Published
11 November 2004
Last activity
17 November 2004
Original author
Edward Dolan
Posts
15
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
564
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–15 of 15
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
    Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point
    out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of
    the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in
    full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in
    the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the
    world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and
    weep - for the West and for civilization.

    For Dutch, anger battles with tolerance
    By Craig S. Smith The New York Times
    Thursday, November 11, 2004

    AMSTERDAM Anger toward the Netherlands' Muslim community percolated among
    the crowd that gathered outside the funeral for the Dutch filmmaker Theo van
    Gogh, who was killed by an Islamic extremist a week ago.

    The public debate over how conservative Islam fits into Europe's most
    tolerant, liberal society had already become a no-holds-barred affair before
    the killing of van Gogh, who had publicly and repeatedly used epithets
    against Muslims. But his killing has now polarized the country, giving the
    rest of Europe a disturbing glimpse of what may be in store if relations
    with the continent's growing immigrant communities are not managed more
    adeptly.

    The anger is such that for the second time in two days an Islamic elementary
    school was attacked Tuesday, this time in Uden, part of what Dutch
    authorities fear are reprisals after van Gogh's killing. The authorities
    said that Muslim sites had been the targets of a half-dozen attacks in the
    past week.

    In apparent retaliation, arsonists attempted to burn down Protestant
    churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort, the police said.

    The attacks have scratched the patina of tolerance on which the Dutch have
    long prided themselves, particularly here in their principal city, where the
    scent of hashish trails in the air, prostitutes beckon from storefront
    brothels and Hell's Angels live side by side with Hare Krishnas. But many
    Dutch now say that for years that tradition of tolerance suppressed an open
    debate about the challenges of integrating conservative Muslims.

    Jan Colijn, 46, a bookkeeper from the central Dutch town of Gorinchem who
    was at the funeral Tuesday night, complained that the Netherlands' generous
    social welfare system had allowed Muslim immigrants to isolate themselves.
    Because of that, "there is a kind of Muslim fascism emerging here," he said.
    "The government must find a way to break these communities open."

    Another man, who declined to give his name, was more succinct: "Now, it's
    war."

    For many years, such criticism of Islam and Islamic customs, even among
    Dutch extremists, was considered taboo, despite deep frustrations that had
    built up against conservative Islam in the country.

    Many here say that began to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist
    attacks in the United States, when the Netherlands, like many other
    countries, began to consider the dangers of political Islam seriously. The
    debate fueled an anti-immigration movement and helped propel the career of
    the populist politician Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered by an environmental
    activist shortly before national elections in 2002.

    By all accounts in the Netherlands, Fortuyn's murder removed any remaining
    brakes on the debate surrounding immigrants.

    "After Pim Fortuyn's murder, there were no limitations on what you could
    say," said Edwin Bakker, a terrorism expert at the Netherlands Institute of
    International Relations. "It has become a climate in which insulting people
    is the norm."

    He and others said the public discourse, even among members of government,
    reached an unprecedented pitch and included language that went far beyond
    the limits set for public forums in the United States.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of Parliament and one of a handful of politicians
    threatened with death by Islamic extremists, publicly called the prophet
    Muhammad a "pervert" and a "tyrant." She made a film with van Gogh
    condemning sexual abuse among Muslim women, who were portrayed with Koranic
    verses written on their bare skin.

    Van Gogh himself was one of the most outspoken critics of fundamentalist
    Muslims and favored an epithet for conservative Muslims that referred to
    bestiality with a goat. He used the term often in his public statements,
    including a column he wrote for a widely read free newspaper and during
    radio broadcasts and television appearances.

    The cumulative effect made van Gogh, a distant relation of the painter
    Vincent van Gogh, a kind of cult clown on one side of the debate, and a
    reviled hatemonger on the other.

    The debate became so caustic that the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD,
    issued a report in March warning that the unrestrained language could
    encourage radicalization of the country's Muslim youth and drive individuals
    into the arms of terrorist recruiters. The agency has warned repeatedly in
    recent years that such recruiters are active in the Netherlands and
    elsewhere in Europe.

    While only about 20 percent of the Netherlands' estimated 900,000 Muslims
    practice their religion, according to one government study, officials say as
    many as 5 percent of Muslims in the country follow a conservative form of
    Islam. Most are from the Netherlands' Moroccan community, which has its
    roots in the Rif, an impoverished, mountainous Berber region in the north.

    There are about 300,000 people of Moroccan descent in the Netherlands today,
    and the intensified anti-immigration debate has alienated many of them from
    Dutch society and, many people argue, has also helped fragment the Muslim
    community.

    Jean Tillie, a professor of political science at the University of
    Amsterdam, says that the debate has broken down a network that connected
    even the most extremist Muslim groups to the more moderate voices within the
    Muslim community. He cited an Amsterdam government advisory board that
    brought together all kinds of Moroccans and fostered communication and
    cohesion within the Muslim community.

    "Those groups participating didn't agree with each other, but they met
    together with the collective mission of advising the city government," he
    said.

    The board was abolished a year ago, he says. He claims that funds for other
    ethnic organizations have shrunk and outreach policies have also been
    abandoned.

    At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people to be the epicenter of
    extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that
    pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to
    control its radical youth.

    "If we bring these people into the mosque, it is possible to change their
    thoughts, but few mosques dare to because if you do, you're branded," he
    said.

    Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and
    though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said
    that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach
    out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing
    so.

    The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al
    Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this
    year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties
    with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books
    espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment
    of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings.

    Several legislators have called for the mosque to be shut down, but under
    the Dutch constitution it is difficult to do.

    Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears
    within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge
    the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All
    of us want to begin a dialogue now, but the language of the political right
    is too extreme, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to
    cool down and be careful what we say."

    The problem is how to bridge a gap that has yawned dangerously since van
    Gogh's murder.

    The Amsterdam Council of Churches published paid notices in some Dutch
    newspapers pledging solidarity with the Muslim community. But the
    government's response has been to promise more money for fighting terrorism
    and stronger immigration laws.

    "Islam is the most hated word in the country at this point," said Bakker,
    the terrorism expert.

    Copyright © 2004 The International Herald Tribune | www.iht.com

    --
    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

  2. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
    Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to
    point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are
    part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am
    posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is
    happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal
    people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read
    the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
    place for the next few days.

    http://www.nysun.com/article/4623

  3. On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly" <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
    place for the next few days.

    I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I
    suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
    prospect.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  4. On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600

    Ogg Oggibly said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to

    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of
    the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried
    to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact
    are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which
    I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about
    what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and
    liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about
    them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New

    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
    the place for the next few days.

    I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and
    clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions.

    Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same
    chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone.

    Interesting factoid - under the ottoman empire, jews had preferential
    status, of a sort. Imported goods were taxed at three different rates - the
    most preferential rate for islamic importers, the least preferential rate
    for christians and other infidels, and a middle rate for jews.

    Additionally, while christians and other infidels were not allowed to
    enter the empire, jews could come and go as they pleased and were often
    employed as emissaries and business managers, as the citizens of the
    ottoman empire considered the outside world unclean and preferred that if
    someone had to travel, someone else should do it.

    When the nazis entered the middle east, they spread a great deal of
    anti-semetic propaganda in the local languages. Some historians point to
    this as the initial breakdown in relations.

    Palestinian jews who were living on the land that is now Israel do not
    enjoy the same social status as western european jews now living there. How
    did that happen? Could it be because they have darker skin?

    Brazilian jews descended from native brazilians who were converted to
    judaism hundreds of years ago are routinely denied citizenship. Also
    mexican jews descended from spanish jews that fled persecution in spain
    hundreds of years ago by emigrating to mexico are denied citizenship.
    (incidentally, it didn't help - the spanish government sent ships to mexico
    to persecute and kill them there, too.)

    A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship
    to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism.

    How can all this be? I thought it was about religion.

    My neighbor is the son of slavic jews that emigrated to israel and
    prefers living in religiously repressed Utah to living in religiously
    repressed Israel. How can that be?

    Is it wrong for me to believe that the color of your skin, the language
    you speak, your parents country of origin, none of these things should have
    any bearing on your status in a modern society?

    If this is how they treat people of their own religion, boy, imagine if
    you're the wrong religion. Apparently you're not even usually allowed to
    own your house or get a job.

    I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why
    they're so [censored].

  5. Ogg Oggibly said:

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
    place for the next few days.

    http://www.nysun.com/article/4623

    While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled
    things, one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership.

    But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and
    living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting
    thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the
    Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason?
    The Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and
    unless there's a change they will be a minority in their own country
    within fifty years. So, the young Jews are realizing that pissing off
    the Arabs is going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of
    course they try to keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state.

    Mark

  6. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly" <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
    the
    place for the next few days.

    I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way.

    Guy. You are having those mood swings again. Day before yesterday you said
    something to the effect of you didn't give a [censored] about Arafat, the
    unaccounted for 3 billion dollars, his wife Sue, excuse me make that Suha,
    or his wannabee suscessors. Today your pannies are all in a wad because of
    an obit in a New York newspaper. I didn't write it for Allah's sake.

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
    prospect.


    No argument there. I am totally insignificant. I've never massacred an
    Israeli Olympic team or recruited mentally retarded 16 year olds promising
    them paradise and 72 virgins if they would strap a bomb to their waist and
    detonate it on a bus full Israeli school children, etc., etc.

    So no - no one will be dancing on my grave in that way.

    Ogg O

  7. Mr. Ed Dolan said:

    There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
    Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism....

    Let it be noted that Mr. Ed Dolan is starting an off-topic political
    thread, thereby voiding his former statement that he only goes off-topic
    to respond to "liberal" statements.

    --
    Tom Sherman
    "Use your head, Mr. Ed" – Slugger

  8. "Mark Rehder" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Ogg Oggibly said:

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
    the place for the next few days.

    http://www.nysun.com/article/4623

    While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled things,
    one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership.
    But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and
    living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting
    thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the
    Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason? The
    Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and unless
    there's a change they will be a minority in their own country within fifty
    years. So, the young Jews are realizing that pissing off the Arabs is
    going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of course they try to
    keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state.

    Israel needs to keep all Arabs out of Israel forever. Israel is a state for
    Jews only. The Arabs have all the rest of the Middle East in which to live.

    --
    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

  9. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly" <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
    the
    place for the next few days.

    I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I
    suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
    prospect.

    Arafat was nothing if not a terrorist. That is all anyone ever has to know
    about him. Why the Europeans ever liked him is beyond comprehension. I
    attribute it to Jew hatred which is ever latent in Europe.

    --
    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

  10. "Eric Jorgensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:20041111151019.3c219463@wafer...

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600

    Ogg Oggibly said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to

    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of
    the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried
    to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact
    are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which
    I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about
    what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and
    liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about
    them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.

    You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New

    York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
    the place for the next few days.

    I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and
    clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions.

    Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same
    chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone.

    Palestine and the Palestinians did not even exist as a conscious entity
    until the Jews laid claim to the land.
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship
    to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism.

    How can all this be? I thought it was about religion.

    Don't be such an [censored]. Being Jew is much more than just religion. It is
    about an ethnic group that goes back thousands of years. Those Africans were
    no more Jews than you and I.
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why
    they're so [censored].

    Israel ought to remove all the Arabs off any land they consider to be their
    own. They can all go to Jordan and rot there. Israel has every right to do
    this by their military victories. In the end, might makes right. The main
    thing Israel should never do is listen to whimpering liberals like you.

    --
    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

  11. "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mr. Ed Dolan said:

    There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
    Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of
    the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism....

    Let it be noted that Mr. Ed Dolan is starting an off-topic political
    thread, thereby voiding his former statement that he only goes off-topic
    to respond to "liberal" statements.

    Let it be noted that I do this but rarely. The situation in the Netherlands
    as reported in the NY Times ties right into the discussion we were having
    here on ARBR on precisely that situation. Ogg was 100% right in his
    description and Peter Clinch was 100% wrong is his description. I thought
    the readers of ARBR should know the truth, especially since some here are
    into making excuses for the murdering Muslim [censored].

    --
    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

  12. Mark Rehder <[email hidden]> wrote in message news

    Quoted message said:


    While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled
    things, one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership.

    We can't admire that they haven't unleashed due retaliation for the
    multitude of homicide bombs and other terrorist acts that occur in
    Israel on almost a daily basis? Israel's restraint alone deserves
    admiration.

    Quoted message said:


    But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and
    living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting
    thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the
    Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason?
    The Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and
    unless there's a change they will be a minority in their own country
    within fifty years. So, the young Jews are realizing that pissing off
    the Arabs is going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of
    course they try to keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state.

    I too lived in Israel for from '83 to '85 and yes, there was a mutual
    "let's get along sentiment" between Israelies and the so-called
    "Palestinians". But it had nothing to do with pissing them off. Fact
    is, the majority of both parties want to get along. It's the idiot
    fanatics whose terrorist antics have captured the attention of a
    mis-informed world through a violence hungry media, which gives
    creedence to the "Palestinian cause" by doing stupid things like (most
    recently) referring to Arafat as a "Statesman".

    Wake up people. They gave this guy *Arafat* the "Nobel PEACE Prize"!
    Can you friging believe it?

    G-d help us

    -L

  13. Leif said:

    Wake up people. They gave this guy *Arafat* the "Nobel PEACE Prize"!
    Can you friging believe it?

    They gave it to Henry Kissinger too, an action which caused Tom Lehrer to
    give up satire, stating that nothing he could write could possibly compare
    with THAT.

    --

    McTavish the Unmentionable

  14. "McTavish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Leif said:

    Wake up people. They gave this guy *Arafat* the "Nobel PEACE Prize"!
    Can you friging believe it?

    They gave it to Henry Kissinger too, an action which caused Tom Lehrer to
    give up satire, stating that nothing he could write could possibly compare
    with THAT.

    Leif, you are right and anyone who thinks otherwise is just terribly wrong,
    to say it in the kindest way possible. Even Christopher Hitchens has finally
    got his head screwed on straight with respect to what think of the Muslim
    extremists. As I know many of you will not go to a link, here it is in full
    so that you can educate yourselves without any excuses. I especially like
    what he says about religion in general - quite funny really.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota

    Bush's Secularist Triumph
    The left apologizes for religious fanatics. The president fights them.
    By Christopher Hitchens
    Posted Tuesday, Nov. 9, 2004, at 7:34 AM PT

    Many are the cheap and easy laughs in which one could indulge at the
    extraordinary, pitiful hysteria of the defeated Democrats. "Kerry won,"
    according to one e-mail I received from Greg Palast, to whom the Florida
    vote in 2000 is, and always will be, a combination of Gettysburg and
    Waterloo. According to Nikki Finke of the LA Weekly, the Fox News channel
    "called" Ohio for Bush for reasons too sinister to enumerate. Gregory
    Maniatis, whose last communication to me had predicted an annihilating
    Democratic landslide, kept quiet for only a day or so before forwarding the
    details on how to emigrate to Canada. Thus do the liberals build their
    bridge to the 20th century.

    Who can care about this pathos? Not I. But I do take strong exception to one
    strain in the general moaning. It seems that anyone fool enough to favor the
    re-election of the president is by definition a God-bothering,
    pulpit-pounding Armageddon-artist, enslaved by ancient texts and prophecies
    and committed to theocratic rule. I was instructed in last week's New York
    Times that this was the case, and that the Enlightenment had come to an end,
    by no less an expert than Garry Wills, who makes at least one of his many
    livings by being an Augustinian Roman Catholic.

    I step lightly over the ancient history of Wills' church (which was the
    originator of the counter-Enlightenment and then the patron of fascism in
    Europe) as well as over its more recent and local history (as the patron,
    protector, and financier of child-rape in the United States, and the sponsor
    of the cruel "annulment" of Joe Kennedy's and John Kerry's first marriages).
    As far as I know, all religions and all churches are equally demented in
    their belief in divine intervention, divine intercession, or even the
    existence of the divine in the first place.

    But all faiths are not always equally demented in the same way, or at the
    same time. Islam, which was once a civilizing and creative force in many
    societies, is now undergoing a civil war. One faction in this civil war is
    explicitly totalitarian and wedded to a cult of death. We have seen it at
    work on the streets of our own cities, and most recently on the streets of
    Amsterdam. We know that the obscene butchery of filmmaker Theo van Gogh was
    only a warning of what is coming in Madrid, London, Rome, and Paris, let
    alone Baghdad and Basra.

    So here is what I want to say on the absolutely crucial matter of
    secularism. Only one faction in American politics has found itself able to
    make excuses for the kind of religious fanaticism that immediately menaces
    us in the here and now. And that faction, I am sorry and furious to say, is
    the left. From the first day of the immolation of the World Trade Center,
    right down to the present moment, a gallery of pseudointellectuals has been
    willing to represent the worst face of Islam as the voice of the oppressed.
    How can these people bear to reread their own propaganda? Suicide murderers
    in Palestine—disowned and denounced by the new leader of the PLO—described
    as the victims of "despair." The forces of al-Qaida and the Taliban
    represented as misguided spokespeople for antiglobalization. The
    blood-maddened thugs in Iraq, who would rather bring down the roof on a
    suffering people than allow them to vote, pictured prettily as "insurgents"
    or even, by Michael Moore, as the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers.
    If this is liberal secularism, I'll take a modest, God-fearing, deer-hunting
    Baptist from Kentucky every time, as long as he didn't want to impose his
    principles on me (which our Constitution forbids him to do).

    One probably should not rest too much on the similarity between Bin Laden's
    last video and the newly available DVD of Fahrenheit 9/11. I would only say
    that, if Bin Laden had issued a tape that with equal fealty followed the
    playbook of Karl Rove (and do please by all means cross yourself at the
    mention of this unholy name), it might have garnered some more attention.
    The Bearded One moved pedantically through Moore's bill of indictment,
    checking off the Florida vote-count in 2000, the "Pet Goat" episode on the
    day of hell, the violent intrusion into hitherto peaceful and Muslim Iraq,
    and the division between Bush and the much nicer Europeans. (For some
    reason, unknown to me at any rate, he did not attack the President for
    allowing the Bin Laden family to fly out of American airspace.)

    George Bush may subjectively be a Christian, but he—and the U.S. armed
    forces—have objectively done more for secularism than the whole of the
    American agnostic community combined and doubled. The demolition of the
    Taliban, the huge damage inflicted on the al-Qaida network, and the
    confrontation with theocratic saboteurs in Iraq represent huge advances for
    the non-fundamentalist forces in many countries. The "antiwar" faction even
    recognizes this achievement, if only indirectly, by complaining about the
    way in which it has infuriated the Islamic religious extremists around the
    world. But does it accept the apparent corollary—that we should have been
    pursuing a policy to which the fanatics had no objection?

    Secularism is not just a smug attitude. It is a possible way of democratic
    and pluralistic life that only became thinkable after several wars and
    revolutions had ruthlessly smashed the hold of the clergy on the state. We
    are now in the middle of another such war and revolution, and the liberals
    have gone AWOL. I dare say that there will be a few domestic confrontations
    down the road, over everything from the Pledge of Allegiance to the display
    of Mosaic tablets in courtrooms and schools. I have spent all my life on the
    atheist side of this argument, and will brace for more of the same, but I
    somehow can't hear Robert Ingersoll* or Clarence Darrow being soft and
    cowardly and evasive if it came to a vicious theocratic challenge that daily
    threatens us from within and without.

    Correction, Nov. 9, 2004: The original version of this article incorrectly
    referred to Robert Ingersoll as "Ralph" Ingersoll.

    Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair

  15. Quoted message said:

    stupid things like (most recently) referring
    to Arafat as a "Statesman".

    To think that murderer got the Peace Prize! Insanity rules, eh?

    Quoted message said:

    Wake up people. They gave this guy *Arafat*
    the "Nobel PEACE Prize"! Can you friging
    believe it?

    SOmeone told me that when Arafat died he went straight to heaven.
    Immediately upon arrival George Washington strode up and kicked him square
    in the groin. Arafat fell to the ground, writhing in agony. While he lay
    there Thomas Jefferson walked over and kicked him in the mouth, knocking his
    teeth loose. Arafat looked up to the Lord and complained, "Where are my 70
    virgins???"

    A booming voice from above thundered, "You weren't listening. I said 70
    'Virginians.'"

    .... :^)

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.