A question for my learned touring friends.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:21:57 -0000, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

How different are lowrider panniers from "normal" ones? Is there a
nominal spacing from the hooks at the top to the clip / hook which holds
them to the rack?

They go under the seat, with a strap that goes under the seat cushion
to hold them in place. Radical make them, they are really good.

Oh, wait...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Jon Senior said:

How different are lowrider panniers from "normal" ones? Is there a
nominal spacing from the hooks at the top to the clip / hook which holds
them to the rack?

ie. Could a "normal" rear pannier be put onto a lowrider rack and mount
securely (Ignoring clearance from the ground on front forks!)?

Jon (Puzzled in Edinburgh)

Lowrider ones are usually narrower than regular ones. That said the
hooks are pretty much the same width appart, mine are anyway. The ones
with the bungee or strap and hook fitting at the bottom will be better
than the ones with a fixed hook that hooks around the rack leg (I have a
EBC symetical panner that is like this) since there is no leg with low
rider racks.

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

They go under the seat, with a strap that goes under the seat cushion
to hold them in place. Radical make them, they are really good.

Oh, wait...

When the budget gets larger, I'll buy some Radicals. In the meantime...

I'm trying to work out rack arrangements for the rebuild of the
recumbent. I have an idea for fitting a normal lowrider rack under the
seat, but wasn't sure if I would then require special panniers or
whether a normal one would fit.

And there is an alternative to Radicals made by Arkel (RT-60) which
looks equally cool. I think the difference boils down to compartments or
not.

Jon

MSeries [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Lowrider ones are usually narrower than regular ones. That said the
hooks are pretty much the same width appart, mine are anyway. The ones
with the bungee or strap and hook fitting at the bottom will be better
than the ones with a fixed hook that hooks around the rack leg (I have a
EBC symetical panner that is like this) since there is no leg with low
rider racks.

I'm actually thinking of trying to fit the EBC symmetrical pannier. What
do you mean by there being "no leg with low rider racks"? The ones I've
seen tend to be a inverted triangle which looks like it'd work as long
as the base of the triangle was lower than the hook point.

Anyone have these and fancy measuring the distance from top to bottom
for me?

Jon

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

How different are lowrider panniers from "normal" ones? Is there a
nominal spacing from the hooks at the top to the clip / hook which holds
them to the rack?

Quoted message said:

ie. Could a "normal" rear pannier be put onto a lowrider rack and mount
securely (Ignoring clearance from the ground on front forks!)?

We regularly use Pete's low rider panniers as 'normal' panniers on either
the 'bents or my upright hybrid, so it seems that the main difference is
the size.

And even if you do get the Radicals eventually , a small pannier is useful
for day trips; the Radicals are a bit of a a pain to put on and work
better when they more or less fully and symmetrically loaded.

Roos

Jon Senior said:

MSeries [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Lowrider ones are usually narrower than regular ones. That said the
hooks are pretty much the same width appart, mine are anyway. The ones
with the bungee or strap and hook fitting at the bottom will be better
than the ones with a fixed hook that hooks around the rack leg (I have a
EBC symetical panner that is like this) since there is no leg with low
rider racks.

I'm actually thinking of trying to fit the EBC symmetrical pannier. What
do you mean by there being "no leg with low rider racks"? The ones I've
seen tend to be a inverted triangle which looks like it'd work as long
as the base of the triangle was lower than the hook point.

Anyone have these and fancy measuring the distance from top to bottom
for me?

Jon

My low rider racks are Blackburn ones for forks without braise ons and
are basically a rectangle though there is a strut which goes from the
lower 'bar' to towards the centre and has a hole at the end for
attachement to the mudguard eye on the fork. Thinking about it again it
might work. The racks are not currently on the bike and if I remember
this evening I'll try my pannier on the rack and take some photos and
measurments for you. Maybe you'll need to fabricate a custom rack.

Jon Senior said:

How different are lowrider panniers from "normal" ones? Is there a
nominal spacing from the hooks at the top to the clip / hook which holds
them to the rack?

I don't know about recent units, but my 1996 lowrider carried standard
small front panniers. You can see them here:

http://tranchant.plus.com/cycling/images/mark-portsmouth

Yes, those are tri-bars with which I'm about to ride across France. Very
useful they were too.

I don't think standard rear panniers would be much good - you'd have to
be very sure they weren't going to foul the wheel or your legs.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

Jon Senior said:

How different are lowrider panniers from "normal" ones? Is there a
nominal spacing from the hooks at the top to the clip / hook which holds
them to the rack?

Most panniers of my acquaintance have movable hooks, so you set the
spacing to suit your particular rack (also handy for when Brand X Racks
have a cross strut just where Brand Y Baggage think unmovable pannier
hooks should go!). Difference is generally size and fewer have a rear
pocket, I've used the 2 sets of lows I've had (Carradice Carradura and
Altura Orkney) on the back, and as long as they're not hitting the
ground or interfering with the steering there's no reason you couldn't
put nominal rears elsewhere.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:35:25 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

I'm trying to work out rack arrangements for the rebuild of the
recumbent. I have an idea for fitting a normal lowrider rack under the
seat, but wasn't sure if I would then require special panniers or
whether a normal one would fit.

Yerss, I know that. I was being humorous.

You will want lowrider panniers, I think. They are less deep. Normal
panniers low down will touch the ground on corners. There are several
commercial 'bents with lowrider racks under the seat.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Mark Tranchant wrote

Quoted message said:

Yes, those are tri-bars with which I'm about to ride across France.

You must be camping ?
On my trip St Malo to Barcelona Staying at IYHA , Logis and Chambre D'hote
two rear super C panniers and bar bag were ample. When we reached the hills
we posted stuff home. I sill have my route on Excell if your interested.

PK

Geraint Jones said:

I conclude that you
can fit almost anything onto a lowrider carrier with a bit of ingenuity,
and the only problem is restraining yourself from putting too much
weight into them.

Though on a recumbent if you've got the rack under the seat between the
wheels it doesn't really matter if you put all your heavy stuff there.
I deliberately put the heavy stuff down there on the Streetmachine, and
the only tangible effect on the handling is you seem glued to the road
slightly more than usual.

http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tdn4.htm has a pic of both
our 'bents laden for touring. The lowriders on mine are Altura Orkney
Universals, the biggest lowrider I've come across at 17l each and not
*too* much different from smaller "rear" panniers like the EBC
Symmetrical Jon's looking at (though those look narrower, so will
probably have a little less ground clearance). In the same pic my bike
also has Ortlieb 20l rear rollers and Roos' bike sports the Radical
recumbent panniers already noted as great for touring, ungreat for day
to day small loads.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Though on a recumbent if you've got the rack under the seat between
the wheels it doesn't really matter if you put all your heavy stuff
there.
I deliberately put the heavy stuff down there on the Streetmachine,
and the only tangible effect on the handling is you seem glued to the
road slightly more than usual.

What about the (counter-intuative) idea that the higher weight is placed,
the easier or quicker any bike is to handle? Easier to shift the weight,
etc?

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

What about the (counter-intuative) idea that the higher weight is placed,
the easier or quicker any bike is to handle? Easier to shift the weight,
etc?

The high centre of mass is more stable business /is/ true for cases like
an Ordinary at low speed being more stable than a lowracer at the same
speed, but in this case the mass is the rider and s/he can constantly
respond with feedback to correct the balance. With luggage it's just
raw mass, and the higher it is the more leverage it has to push things
over once it's off centre. It may well make the handling quicker, but
if that's quicker to fall over then not necessarily a good thing!

Moving stuff about in the 8 Freight sometimes there's stuff that has to
be strapped on top of the cargo bin rather than laying in it, and in
this sort of configuration it is quite noticeably less stable than a
larger weight entirely inside the cargo area.

For static weight it seems the lower the better, and if you can get it
between the wheels so it pulls down on both then that's a bonus too as
the steering stays relatively unchanged. Note this is for reasonably
biggish loads: with a light bike and lightly loaded pannier(s) on a
decent rack it should be a complete non-issue, but full touring or
freight loads it can be significant IME.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon Senior said:

MSeries [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Lowrider ones are usually narrower than regular ones. That said the
hooks are pretty much the same width appart, mine are anyway. The ones
with the bungee or strap and hook fitting at the bottom will be better
than the ones with a fixed hook that hooks around the rack leg (I have a
EBC symetical panner that is like this) since there is no leg with low
rider racks.

I'm actually thinking of trying to fit the EBC symmetrical pannier. What
do you mean by there being "no leg with low rider racks"? The ones I've
seen tend to be a inverted triangle which looks like it'd work as long
as the base of the triangle was lower than the hook point.

Anyone have these and fancy measuring the distance from top to bottom
for me?

Jon

From the hooks at the top to the centre of the lower clamp rail is 24.5
cm. The lower clamp slides along the lower rail. Here is a picture of
the back of an EBC Symmetrical Pannier.
http:/www.mseries.freeserve.co.uk/Dscf0014.jpg From the centre of the
lower rail to the bottom of the back is about 10cm but remember if the
bag is not full it may sag a little. The bag protrudes over the top of
its rack by about 4cm

Response to Peter Clinch:

Quoted message said:

http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tdn4.htm has a pic of both
our 'bents laden for touring.

Looked like a lovely tour! I like the Black Isle (my GF's aunt & uncle
run a B&B there), my sister lives in Inverness, and I haven't been to
northern Scotland in way too long. Time to make plans, perhaps; but I'd
guess from the comments on your site that getting a trike up there might
be a bit of a PITA.

--
Mark, UK.
We hope to hear him swear, we love to hear him squeak,
We like to see him biting fingers in his horny beak.

Just zis Guy, you know? [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Yerss, I know that. I was being humorous.

Sorry!

Quoted message said:

You will want lowrider panniers, I think. They are less deep. Normal
panniers low down will touch the ground on corners. There are several
commercial 'bents with lowrider racks under the seat.

But YLRFBMV[1]. Since yours is (I believe) 20/20 you have less clearance
under the main strut than the 26/20 of the Streetmachine GT and clones.
I didn't get a chance at work today to hold the EBC pannier under the
frame and see what it would be like, but I seem to recall having tried
it in the past and concluding that it wasn't that bad.

What I've yet to establish is whether that pannier will physically fit
onto a lowrider rack since I'd like to have this set up for when I go
home at Christmas, and don't fancy having to buy some new panniers for
the journey.

Jon

[1] Your Lowrider Rack Fitted Bent May Vary

Peter Clinch [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tdn4.htm has a pic of both
our 'bents laden for touring.

And also shows nicely the difference in height between the two! ;-)

Jon

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:54:39 -0000, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You will want lowrider panniers, I think. They are less deep. Normal
panniers low down will touch the ground on corners. There are several
commercial 'bents with lowrider racks under the seat.

Quoted message said:

But YLRFBMV[1]. Since yours is (I believe) 20/20 you have less clearance
under the main strut than the 26/20 of the Streetmachine GT and clones.

Yes. On my bike you can't get lowriders under the seat at all.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Jon Senior said:

What I've yet to establish is whether that pannier will physically fit
onto a lowrider rack

Very probably. All the panniers I've ever owned (two pairs each of
rears and lowriders, 3 different flavours) have basically similar fixing
systems and I've not come across a rack that wouldn't take one. Well,
not quite true as the SMGT has 12mm rack tubing and not every pannier
hook will go around that (Carradice only up to 11mm, Bah!), but when I
went to EBC to sort out replacements they were very happy for me to
wheel the bike in and try out the options direct. Why not drop into
EBC, grab a lowrider rack and see what panniers will go on it?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/