water softeners and heart disease

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the
hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who retains
water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

actually you could install a reverse osmosis unit under your kitchen
sink...to remove the extra salt...or simply NOT drink the softened water if
salt is an issue with you...rather than the expense of buying bottled
water...buy a Brita filtering pitcher...they are reasonable and only need a
new filter every three months..

your laundry..and your hair..on the other hand ..will LOVE the soft water...

many folks drink softened water without problem.......

good luck..

hawki
"zwalanga" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

X-No-Archive: Yes

Water softening system newly installed in my building.

What is the concern with softened water and heart disease? Is it only
for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more
complex.

Zee

we have soft water on the hot water tank only...... too easy to plumb it
that way

and we have an RO water system for those that don't want ANY of the
minerals.......

kate

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the
hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who retains
water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

actually you could install a reverse osmosis unit under your kitchen
sink...to remove the extra salt...or simply NOT drink the softened water

if

Quoted message said:

salt is an issue with you...rather than the expense of buying bottled
water...buy a Brita filtering pitcher...they are reasonable and only need

a

Quoted message said:

new filter every three months..

your laundry..and your hair..on the other hand ..will LOVE the soft

water...

Quoted message said:

many folks drink softened water without problem.......

good luck..

hawki
"zwalanga" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

X-No-Archive: Yes

Water softening system newly installed in my building.

What is the concern with softened water and heart disease? Is it only
for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more
complex.

Zee

X-no-archive: yes

hawki63 said:

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium

ions..the

Quoted message said:

hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who

retains

Quoted message said:

water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a

water

Quoted message said:

softener..

actually you could install a reverse osmosis unit under your kitchen
sink...to remove the extra salt...or simply NOT drink the softened

water if

Quoted message said:

salt is an issue with you...rather than the expense of buying bottled
water...buy a Brita filtering pitcher...they are reasonable and only

need a

Quoted message said:

new filter every three months..

your laundry..and your hair..on the other hand ..will LOVE the soft

water...

Quoted message said:

many folks drink softened water without problem.......

good luck..

hawki
"zwalanga" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

X-No-Archive: Yes

Water softening system newly installed in my building.

What is the concern with softened water and heart disease? Is it

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more
complex.

Zee

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We were told "...have installed a potassium-based water softening
system... . {There will be a} slight increase in potassium in the
water... . Those on medications consult your doctor and use bottled
water only." Of course I realize the latter is disclaimer, but also
remember reading a caution; somewhere, sometime.

I did find a post dated 1994 discussing water softeners and plaque but
nothing newer. Still lookiing and asking...
http://tinyurl.com/4hzgn

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

Huh? Then how does it work?

moo

In article <[email hidden]>,

hawki63 said:

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions..the
hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who retains
water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

It is if you use potassium salts, instead of sodium chloride.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

zwalanga said:

X-No-Archive: Yes

Water softening system newly installed in my building.

What is the concern with softened water and heart disease? Is it only
for the potassium salt used to soften the water, or something more
complex.

If they use standard softener salt (NaCl) it's not an issue, but there is an
increase in sodium equal to the amount of other minerals displaced. You
will not be able to taste it even if the water is relatively hard. In
theory, you are not supposed to use it for watering plants and a few other
things, but in reality, it's not likely to make a difference. If they do
use potassium, you can figure out how much will be added to the water supply
by taking a sample of your tap water in for testing. It would have to be
water that was not softened. Then when they test for grains of hardness,
you can figure out how much potassium will be added.

Generally, sodium chloride is used for water softeners because it's much
cheaper.

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

hawki63 said:

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium

ions..the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who

retains

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a

water

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

softener..

It is if you use potassium salts, instead of sodium chloride.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants

Does anyone have a comment about my original question? And if softened
water has some encouraging effect on plaque formation, will using Brita
filters stop that?

Quoted message said:

were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

Huh? Then how does it work?

The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations
And the calcium and magnesium are lost as precipates.
Or the water is soften through the use of ion exchange resins which
remove both cation and anions.

The potassium cation (K+) forms soluble salts hence K+ isn't removed
by the old water softening process.

This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry
at university or even junior college?

Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time
of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the
answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat
and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is
Happy Dog doing out of MHA?

........................................William Noyes

Quoted message said:

moo

In article <[email hidden]>,

William_Noyes said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

Huh? Then how does it work?

The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations

Right.

Quoted message said:

And the calcium and magnesium are lost as precipates.

Wrong. Well, not quite wrong. There is a method for extremely hard water
in which calcium is *added* at elevated pH to force the formation of insoluble
calcium carbonate. Boiling helps too. But this method isn't used in home
central systems, and it doesn't add sodium ions.

Quoted message said:

Or the water is soften through the use of ion exchange resins which
remove both cation and anions.

Sort of right. Anions exchange resins are almost never used in household
water softening systems, nor are resins that replace all cations with H+
used. Commonly it's a cation exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with
Na. Periodically you flush the system with salt water to remove the Ca and
Mg by replacing them with Na. No precipitates - that would ruin your resins.
The Ca and Mg go down the drain during the purge.

You can buy small water stills, or reverse osmosis units or specialized
ion exchangers to produce very pure water for special purposes at home,
e.g. watering orchids or breeding aquarium fish native to rain forests,
but these systems are far too expensive and require too much maintenance
for a home central system, where the purpose is mainly to keep soaps from
precipitating as calcium salts. These almost invariably use a cation
exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with Na, and is regenerated with
salt.

As has been pointed out, central systems are usually put only on the hot
water side of the system, where the benefit is the greatest, both in
providing softened wash water, and reducing precipitation of insoluble
carbonates in the pipes.

Labs mostly use a combination of RO and resin deionization to produce very
pure water these days. It comes out the tap labelled "distilled water".

Quoted message said:

The potassium cation (K+) forms soluble salts hence K+ isn't removed
by the old water softening process.

True but irrelevant. IIRC, that old method was mostly used to soften
extremely hard water a little for industrial processes and steam engine
boilers, mainly to prevent clogging of pipes with insoluble carbonates.

Quoted message said:

This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry
at university or even junior college?

Water softening technology isn't a real important issue in academic chemistry
programs. They concentrate on theory, not minor bits of technology.

Quoted message said:

Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time
of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the
answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat
and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is
Happy Dog doing out of MHA?

It may be an honest question from someone who wants to know. A mostly wrong
answer from the top of the head of someone who only thinks he knows is not
preferable, IMNSHO. Perhaps you shouldn't have wasted your time.

"William_Noyes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a water
softener..

Huh? Then how does it work?

The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations

In an ion-exchange water softening system that uses Potassium Chloride? The
original poster mentioned *only* the Potassium salts used in the unit in
their building. Idiot.

Quoted message said:

This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry
at university or even junior college?

The Dog didn't go to University or Junior College. If you put yourself up
as a shining product of the education system, it looks like the Dog made the
right choice. Although, perhaps, a lack of raw intellectual horsepower
limited your potential. Even in a system that embraces any moron. The Dog
opines that the current higher education system is wasted on the vast
majority of intellectually ungifted journeymen who couldn't survive the
higher standards of a few decades ago.

Quoted message said:

Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time
of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the
answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat
and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is
Happy Dog doing out of MHA?

Hey stoopid, you don't know your ass from the top of your head on this
topic. Anyone who did would be familiar with the use of Potassium salts in
ion-exchange units. My question to hawki63 was rhetorical but inoffensive.
Hey stoopid, your problem is a lack of intelligence or a lack of attention
or both. In any challenging pursuit that requires either, you're a menace.
We pray for deliverance.

Le Moo

Thanks. I did get this rather wrong.
It has been 30 years since I'd given this any thought and
even when I did I must have got the topic tangled.

Further comments below

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

William_Noyes said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

> potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a

water

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> softener..

Huh? Then how does it work?

The calcium and magnesium cations are replaced with sodium cations

Right.

Quoted message said:

And the calcium and magnesium are lost as precipates.

Wrong. Well, not quite wrong. There is a method for extremely hard water
in which calcium is *added* at elevated pH to force the formation of

insoluble

Quoted message said:

calcium carbonate. Boiling helps too. But this method isn't used in home
central systems, and it doesn't add sodium ions.

Quoted message said:

Or the water is soften through the use of ion exchange resins which
remove both cation and anions.

Sort of right. Anions exchange resins are almost never used in household
water softening systems, nor are resins that replace all cations with H+
used. Commonly it's a cation exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with
Na. Periodically you flush the system with salt water to remove the Ca

and

Quoted message said:

Mg by replacing them with Na. No precipitates - that would ruin your

resins.

Quoted message said:

The Ca and Mg go down the drain during the purge.

You can buy small water stills, or reverse osmosis units or specialized
ion exchangers to produce very pure water for special purposes at home,
e.g. watering orchids or breeding aquarium fish native to rain forests,
but these systems are far too expensive and require too much maintenance
for a home central system, where the purpose is mainly to keep soaps from
precipitating as calcium salts. These almost invariably use a cation
exchange resin that replaces Ca and Mg with Na, and is regenerated with
salt.

As has been pointed out, central systems are usually put only on the hot
water side of the system, where the benefit is the greatest, both in
providing softened wash water, and reducing precipitation of insoluble
carbonates in the pipes.

Labs mostly use a combination of RO and resin deionization to produce very
pure water these days. It comes out the tap labelled "distilled water".

Quoted message said:

The potassium cation (K+) forms soluble salts hence K+ isn't removed
by the old water softening process.

True but irrelevant. IIRC, that old method was mostly used to soften
extremely hard water a little for industrial processes and steam engine
boilers, mainly to prevent clogging of pipes with insoluble carbonates.

Quoted message said:

This is first year chemistry. Didn't the Dog take chemistry
at university or even junior college?

Water softening technology isn't a real important issue in academic

chemistry

Quoted message said:

programs. They concentrate on theory, not minor bits of technology.

Quoted message said:

Or is this a rhetorical question? Designed to waste the time
of his opponent. Except someone else (me) knows the
answer off the top of his head.:-Z Happy Dog posts heat
and smoke as do most residents of MHA. Hey, what is
Happy Dog doing out of MHA?

It may be an honest question from someone who wants to know. A mostly

wrong

Quoted message said:

answer from the top of the head of someone who only thinks he knows is not
preferable, IMNSHO. Perhaps you shouldn't have wasted your time.

Your reproof will keep me humble for a day or two.
Since I try to be specific in my postings, rather than
just blowing smoke, I am on occasion specifically and clearly wrong.
Given the volume of my posting, it not surprising that I exposed
a gap in my understanding. The worst of it and the best of it is that
the topic was so close to home. You've surely saved me real life
embarrassment versus embarrassment of my alter ego here on the Usenet.
Still on balance my posting history is better than that of Happy Dog even
considering my error or errors.

So I request that you hang around and post something interesting,
instructive,
and specific.

Best Wishes and
Somewhat Humbly.............William Noyes

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

hawki63 said:

Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium

ions..the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher in
sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who

retains

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water when exposed to excess salt..

potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a

water

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

softener..

It is if you use potassium salts, instead of sodium chloride.

Does anyone have a comment about my original question? And if softened
water has some encouraging effect on plaque formation, will using Brita
filters stop that?

Are we talking about arterial plaques here? I think the evidence that
soft water is good (or bad) for your arteries is ambiguous.

Ironically, magnesium may well be good for your heart, so removing it
might not be a great idea, except that water is not typically a major
source of most minerals (there are exceptions, like fluoride).

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
hawki63 <[email hidden]> wrote:
>Zee,,,water softeners work by exchanging calcium and magnesium

ions..the

Quoted message said:

>hard water minerals..with sodium ions...thus the water is higher

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>sodium...a problem with anyone with high blood pressure..or who

retains

Quoted message said:

>water when exposed to excess salt..
>
>potassium is not a problem....it is not removed,,nor added with a

water

Quoted message said:

>softener..

It is if you use potassium salts, instead of sodium chloride.

Does anyone have a comment about my original question? And if

softened

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water has some encouraging effect on plaque formation, will using

Brita

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

filters stop that?

Are we talking about arterial plaques here? I think the evidence

that

Quoted message said:

soft water is good (or bad) for your arteries is ambiguous.

Ironically, magnesium may well be good for your heart, so removing it
might not be a great idea, except that water is not typically a major
source of most minerals (there are exceptions, like fluoride).

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

This is all I've found so far.

http://tinyurl.com/4hzgn

I've been told that yes, the salt content of the water will
approximately double. That's one problem. Then apparently the increased
calcium content of the water causes arterial plaque. I haven't
substantiated any of this. But thank you for your response.

Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial
plaque. problem. Maybe....

"zwalanga" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I've been told that yes, the salt content of the water will
approximately double. That's one problem.

The concern is increased Sodium intake. Not a consideration in your case
since your water is softened with Potassium (Chloride).

Quoted message said:

Then apparently the increased
calcium content of the water causes arterial plaque. I haven't
substantiated any of this. But thank you for your response.

Lack of Calcium. But there are many other sources of Calcium than tap
water. And tap water varies quite a bit in dissolved mineral content.

le m

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial
plaque. problem. Maybe....

Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium
that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Happy Dog said:

"William_Noyes" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Thanks. I did get this rather wrong.
It has been 30 years since I'd given this any thought and
even when I did I must have got the topic tangled.

"Must of"? Like I said, was an idiot, are an idiot.

HD, have you considered switching to decaf?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). I
have been told there are studies showing communities with softened
water have higher levels of heart disease. So it is not only the
potassium & sodium (with other water softening systems) increase that
is troublesome.

However there is nothing I can do about what has been done in my
"home". Now I am trying to find out what my safest, least expensive
alternative is for cooking and drinking water. I am not allowed to put
anything on the plumbing and Brita and similar filters will not correct
the softening.

I am not concerned about my calcium intake. There is no osteoporosis in
my family.

Zee

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial
plaque. problem. Maybe....

Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium
that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

My concern is what softened water is doing to *my* pipes (arteries). I
have been told there are studies showing communities with softened
water have higher levels of heart disease. So it is not only the
potassium & sodium (with other water softening systems) increase that
is troublesome.

However there is nothing I can do about what has been done in my
"home". Now I am trying to find out what my safest, least expensive
alternative is for cooking and drinking water. I am not allowed to put
anything on the plumbing and Brita and similar filters will not correct
the softening.

I am not concerned about my calcium intake. There is no osteoporosis in
my family.

Just for you, Zee, I've just spent a little time in PubMed, trying to
find out the answer to your question. Some studies find a slightly
elevated risk of coronary heart disease due to soft water. Some do
not. There's a group in Taiwan that seems to want to associate soft
water with everything from pancreatic cancer to heart disease, but a
2004 study in Japan found no relation between CHD and water hardness.

Even if there is an effect, it appears to be due to the lower levels
of magnesium and calcium in the water. If this worries you, take
a calcium/magnesium supplement. That ought to do it. (I do that
myself because magnesium deficiency is remarkably common and there is
some history of heart disease in my family.)

I'm looking into getting a water softener, but the plumbing in my
condo is not well-suited to installing one.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

zwalanga said:

Correction: it's the *decrease* in calcium that causes the arterial
plaque. problem. Maybe....

Maybe. On the other hand, it's the removal of magnesium and calcium
that gets rid of the scaling on the inside of your water pipes.