Spoke Prep - cheap replacement

Don't fix what ain't broken. If you like how the wax works, stick with
it. A well built wheel shouldn't really need any prep, but it can't
hurt either. My favorite is linseed oil; really cheap and a little
tacky. Cheers.

Don't fix what ain't broken. If you like how the wax works, stick with
it. A well built wheel shouldn't really need any prep, but it can't
hurt either. My favorite is linseed oil; really cheap and a little
tacky. Cheers.

Someone said:

Don't fix what ain't broken. If you like how the wax works, stick
with it. A well built wheel shouldn't really need any prep, but it
can't hurt either. My favorite is linseed oil; really cheap and a
little tacky. Cheers.

Yes, and don't forget to throw that pinch of salt over your shoulder.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Spoke prep" is a crutch for poor wheelbuilders. All you need is
lubricant: a drop of oil on the spoke threads and the nipple seat will
allow you to tension the wheel properly. Once the wheel has enough
tension, the nipple won't loosen.

I've built wheels this way for 15 years- and I haven't had a spoke
loosen or break in that time.

Jeff

Joshua Lee said:

Essentially, I rub the
spoke thread on a candle to fill the threads with wax. I guess you could
even melt the wax and dip but the method is unimportant. The build-up is
using the Bicycle Wheel by Jobst. Any thoughts on the candle wax idea?

I'd think that candle wax is useless as a spoke locker and helps
little during the build for lubricating the threads on the spoke.

Candle wax contains stearic acid to make the candles hard and keep
them from melting in warm weather. The wax will chip off and not
flow. The lubrication value is bad. Canning wax would be better but
still not good. I believe that bees wax would be the best and does
get sticky.

Linseed oil has been used traditionally. It lubricates and, when dry.
it will be a very light adhesive.

If you candle wax built wheel is working well, leave it alone. You
don't need any spoke locker. I actually use oil on both the the
threads of the spoke and the outside of the nipple. My spokes don't
unthread themselves.

jlee-<< I'm about to assemble Ult/Reflex clincher wheelset. In the past, I've
used a
cheap replacement for spoke prep - candle wax - and wanted to get your
opinions. I figured the purpose of the prep was to:
1) ensure that the nipple would not loosen due to vibration,
2) ensure that the nipple would not seize completely over time,
3) provide some lubrication during the initial build-up.
I figured wax could accomplish all three so I used it.

I answer-Lube like oil and tension will keep the wheels happy, not corroded,
etc.

BUT I have used boiled lindseed oil since Mike Howard taught me how to build
wheels in 1985. Still do, on the spoke threads. Is it essential? Probably not
but this old dog is gonna use it. I use Mobil One on the nipp/rim interface.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jobst-<< Yes, and don't forget to throw that pinch of salt over your shoulder.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

I answer-of course! and I don't build when there's a full moon either, do you?

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

I'd think that candle wax is useless as a spoke locker and helps
little during the build for lubricating the threads on the spoke.

Wax on the nipples is a great idea, but not for wheelbuilding.

"Paul Kopit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:30:29 -0500, "Joshua Lee" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Essentially, I rub the
spoke thread on a candle to fill the threads with wax. I guess you

could

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even melt the wax and dip but the method is unimportant. The

build-up is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

using the Bicycle Wheel by Jobst. Any thoughts on the candle wax

idea?

Quoted message said:

I'd think that candle wax is useless as a spoke locker and helps
little during the build for lubricating the threads on the spoke.

Candle wax contains stearic acid to make the candles hard and keep
them from melting in warm weather. The wax will chip off and not
flow. The lubrication value is bad. Canning wax would be better

but

Quoted message said:

still not good. I believe that bees wax would be the best and does
get sticky.

Linseed oil has been used traditionally. It lubricates and, when

dry.

Quoted message said:

it will be a very light adhesive.

If you candle wax built wheel is working well, leave it alone. You
don't need any spoke locker. I actually use oil on both the the
threads of the spoke and the outside of the nipple. My spokes don't
unthread themselves.

In article said:

For all the wheelbuilding experts:
cheap replacement for spoke prep - candle wax - and wanted to get your
opinions. I figured the purpose of the prep was to:
1) ensure that the nipple would not loosen due to vibration,

Sufficient tension (especially in the rear wheel) does the same thing.

Quoted message said:

2) ensure that the nipple would not seize completely over time,

Brass nipples lubricated with oil do the same thing. Alloy nipples
treated the same way also don't seize when they see limited amounts
of water and salt (I don't ride those wheels in the winter and don't
know).

Quoted message said:

3) provide some lubrication during the initial build-up.

Oil does the same thing for both spoke threads and sockets.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts on the candle wax idea?

3-in-1, motor oil, etc. all work great, are easier to apply, and
should have better lubricating qualities.
--
<a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a>
9/11 was a premptive attack

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Spoke prep" is a crutch for poor wheelbuilders. All you need

is

Quoted message said:

lubricant: a drop of oil on the spoke threads and the nipple

seat will

Quoted message said:

allow you to tension the wheel properly. Once the wheel has

enough

Quoted message said:

tension, the nipple won't loosen.

I've built wheels this way for 15 years- and I haven't had a

spoke

Quoted message said:

loosen or break in that time.

Back in the day, I built wheels using rims that were
non-anodized, had double eyelets, 36 holes and that were built
around 120mm hubs. These wheels could support high spoke
tensions, and all that was needed during the build were a few
drops of oil. With the current crop of anodized, no-eyelet rims
and high-dish wheels, however, you just cannot make the blanket
statement that all that is needed is oil. Using tensions in
excess of 100Kgf -- which will not keep a wheel true for me --
will kill some of the modern rims. Depending on the rim choice
(spoke count, weight, OC, eyelet, anodizing, etc.) and rider
weight, some sort of threadlock may be necessary. I still think
it can be avoided with the heavier 36/32 hole rims with double
eyelets. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

With the current crop of anodized, no-eyelet rims
and high-dish wheels, however, you just cannot make the blanket
statement that all that is needed is oil.

Low spoke count wheels with heavy bladed spokes also contribute to
loosening nipples. Those spokes aren't as elastic as the traditional
double butted ones, and they can go slack more easily. Radial lacing
presents the same potential problem.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Got it. Any oil, boiled to personal thickness with a pinch of salt and a
touch of beeswax. Sounds like a hearty breakfast. You guys are good.

Now, Ronald, what (or whose) nipple are you referring to?

So do spokes ever seize on the nipples at all (over time) or am I just being
paranoid? I thought water could cause the two to seize.

Kidding aside, I appreciate the respone. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Josh
ps I'm suprised no tifosi mechanic suggested olive oil, even as a joke

Joshua Lee said:

So do spokes ever seize on the nipples at all (over time) or am I

just being

Quoted message said:

paranoid? I thought water could cause the two to seize.

Having worked on far too many cheap bikes in my life, I'll say that
spokes seize at the nipple all the time. Usually it's with cheap plated
spokes and unlubricated nipples- and you're trying to do a favor for a
customer by getting his wheel closer to straight while he waits for his
flat to be fixed. That's when the spoke siezes, twists, and breaks at
the hub. *&%$^%&%!!!!

Jeff

Joshua Lee said:

Got it. Any oil, boiled to personal thickness with a pinch of salt
and a touch of beeswax. Sounds like a hearty breakfast. You guys
are good.

Quoted message said:

So do spokes ever seize on the nipples at all (over time) or am I
just being paranoid? I thought water could cause the two to seize.

If you use brass spoke nipples and stainless spokes the only seizing
possible would be with carefully degreased parts, something not easily
accomplished. Just the same, oiling the threads before building is
useful in two ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist
and it prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet
roads. Fine grit is the only thing that might make the threads bind
for subsequent reuse or truing.

As I have mentioned, I was there when Wheelsmith invented SpokePrep
when they produced their first machine built wheels. Since high
tension could not be achieved, wheels were often returned for losing
trueness (tension) and being aware that the wheels did not have enough
tension to prevent spokes from becoming intermittently slack, they
produced a glue that would not interfere with tensioning but would
prevent unscrewing. Unlike linseed oil, SpokePrep does not change
once applied to spokes so you can batch treat spokes, leave them lying
around and use them any time. Linseed oil and other glues do not give
that option.

On the other hand, the need for SpokePrep indicates insufficient
tension or too few spokes, aka poor wheels. Currently the rave is to
have fewer spokes than your neighbor, or a spoke pattern that is at
least a conversation piece. Let's get back to useful and durable
wheels.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Jobst Brandt said:

Just the same, oiling the threads before building is
useful in two ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist
and it prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet
roads.

Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:

http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist the
nipple to take out the spoke windup.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

Just the same, oiling the threads before building is useful in two
ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist and it
prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet roads.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:

Quoted message said:

http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

Quoted message said:

It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
the nipple to take out the spoke windup.

Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
(essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick.

I found that unloading the spoke to be adjusted a better method, and
with a rigid truing stand this is easily done. Since one usually
holds the wheel in position with the other hand, that hand can be used
to displace the rim toward the side from which the spoke approaches.
This is easily done without any any special maneuvers. In contrast,
imagine how hard it would be to grip the spoke near the nipple with
Twist-resist and turn the nipple with a spoke wrench.

As I mentioned, this year at InterBike, an engineer from Holland
Mechanics wheel building machines called me over and asked me to tell
him once more about making machine built wheels as good as hand built
ones. He wrote it down and said that this time they were going to do
something about it. My suggestion was to include a pneumatic piston
that radially presses against the rim at the spoke being adjusted so
that its nipple can be turned freely regardless of tension.

Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along, that
their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

High tension is where it's at!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

If you use brass spoke nipples and stainless spokes the only seizing
possible would be with carefully degreased parts, something not easily
accomplished. Just the same, oiling the threads before building is
useful in two ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist
and it prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet
roads. Fine grit is the only thing that might make the threads bind
for subsequent reuse or truing.

This (to me) is the best "feature" of spoke prep (though I use linseed
oil for my own wheels). I have always assumed that the tacky final
state of the "prep" will be better than oil at preventing the
ingestion of grit into the spoke/nipple threads, simply because it
takes up much of the space between the two surfaces.

Is this a bad assumption on my part?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Bravo! It is sad that the truth must compete with foolishness in order to
be heard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I mentioned, this year at InterBike, an engineer from Holland
Mechanics wheel building machines called me over and asked me to tell
him once more about making machine built wheels as good as hand built
ones. He wrote it down and said that this time they were going to do
something about it. My suggestion was to include a pneumatic piston
that radially presses against the rim at the spoke being adjusted so
that its nipple can be turned freely regardless of tension.

Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along, that
their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

High tension is where it's at!

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Terry Morse said:

Quoted message said:

Just the same, oiling the threads before building is useful in two
ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist and it
prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet roads.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:

Quoted message said:

http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

Quoted message said:

It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
the nipple to take out the spoke windup.

Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
(essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick.

I found that unloading the spoke to be adjusted a better method, and
with a rigid truing stand this is easily done. Since one usually
holds the wheel in position with the other hand, that hand can be used
to displace the rim toward the side from which the spoke approaches.
This is easily done without any any special maneuvers. In contrast,
imagine how hard it would be to grip the spoke near the nipple with
Twist-resist and turn the nipple with a spoke wrench.

As I mentioned, this year at InterBike, an engineer from Holland
Mechanics wheel building machines called me over and asked me to tell
him once more about making machine built wheels as good as hand built
ones. He wrote it down and said that this time they were going to do
something about it. My suggestion was to include a pneumatic piston
that radially presses against the rim at the spoke being adjusted so
that its nipple can be turned freely regardless of tension.

Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along, that
their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

High tension is where it's at!

where does the hm web site say that?

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/f3/hmtoday/archive/HMToday_2004.pdf

refers to paying more attention to tension consistency, lube
application, nipple washers, nipple lock, etc, but does not endorse
higher tension.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]