Re: Too young to be a retrogrouch?

"Hunrobe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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"Frank Knox" [email hidden]

wrote in part:

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I used to be a good welder and produced flawless welds, most of which

were

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x-rayed in routine QA. I've seen plenty of bikes made by prominent
companies with welds I would have been ashamed of.

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For me, producing "flawless" welds required little more than paying
attention to my work and a steady hand. I never thought of myself or

any

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other welder as a "craftsman". What a put-down!
I would have felt insulted in the same way a janitor would feel if you
called him a professional sanitation engineer. Overstating the

description

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of a trade cheapens it.

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Welding makes a strong joint quickly and therefore cheaply. It's all

about

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the bottom line and nothing else. (Not that there's anything wrong with
that)

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In which case you know, or should know, that filing lugs to fit and then
brazing them to tubing requires just about the same amount of expertise as

did

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your welding. That doesn't cheapen the expertise either requires.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

The welder gets to skip a step since lugs aren't present, so some of this
expertise isn't necessary for a welder. For mass production, welding is far
cheaper. Since welds make an ugly frame IMO, there can be no other reason
to weld a steel frame than cost.

Frank Knox said:

The welder gets to skip a step since lugs aren't present, so some of
this expertise isn't necessary for a welder. For mass production,
welding is far cheaper. Since welds make an ugly frame IMO, there
can be no other reason to weld a steel frame than cost.

Weight is more important to today's buyers than traditional aesthetics. If your
bike is 4 OZ lighter in a sales brochure vs. a competitor's, this could really
matter to some people.

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Frank Knox said:

The welder gets to skip a step since lugs aren't present, so some of
this expertise isn't necessary for a welder. For mass production,
welding is far cheaper. Since welds make an ugly frame IMO, there
can be no other reason to weld a steel frame than cost.

Weight is more important to today's buyers than traditional aesthetics.

If your

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bike is 4 OZ lighter in a sales brochure vs. a competitor's, this could

really

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matter to some people.

Matt O.

I know a few of these people. The irony is so many people who feel this way
would be healthier if they would lose 40 pounds.

"Frank Knox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Frank Knox said:

The welder gets to skip a step since lugs aren't present, so some of
this expertise isn't necessary for a welder. For mass production,
welding is far cheaper. Since welds make an ugly frame IMO, there
can be no other reason to weld a steel frame than cost.

Weight is more important to today's buyers than traditional aesthetics.

If your

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bike is 4 OZ lighter in a sales brochure vs. a competitor's, this could

really

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matter to some people.

Matt O.

I know a few of these people. The irony is so many people who feel this

way

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would be healthier if they would lose 40 pounds.

You hit it right on the head. It's funny to watch guys roll up on Trek 5900s
when they would be faster if they dropped the weight and rode Trek 520s. LOL

Gooserider said:

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I know a few of these people. The irony is so many people who
feel this way would be healthier if they would lose 40 pounds.

You hit it right on the head. It's funny to watch guys roll up on
Trek 5900s when they would be faster if they dropped the weight
and rode Trek 520s.

Don't discount peer pressure. It's all about riding what the group
thinks is appropriate. I'm a climber, so logically I should have a
15-lb featherweight bike. Or so I've been told, over and over again
by my riding buddies. I ride a 24-lb touring bike.

The pressure is more than I can bear. I'm now lusting after one of
these:

http://www.scottusa.com/product.php?UID=6234
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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">
Don't discount peer pressure. It's all about riding what the group
thinks is appropriate. I'm a climber, so logically I should have a
15-lb featherweight bike. Or so I've been told, over and over again
by my riding buddies. I ride a 24-lb touring bike.

Must be a pretty easy going group.

No one would ever come back to one of my group rides
if they ever showed up on a 24-lb tourer.

The first order of business would be to drop the weak
link in the group. It wouldn't be very fun for you.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:33:08 GMT, "Fabrizio Mazzoleni"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<ESJvd.508281$nl.280652@pd7tw3no>:

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No one would ever come back to one of my group rides
if they ever showed up on a 24-lb tourer.

Yup. If there's one thing Flabs hates more than being dropped, it's
being dropped by someone on an "inferior" bike. I've no doubt that no
such rider would be welcomed back at all.

One of the roadies in my club, a Klein rider, was seriously [censored]
when I overtook him on my old 1980s steel tourer. Going uphill. With
my dynamo running. And an old Praktica camera in my bike bag.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Wow, Fabs replied to one of my posts. I'm shocked and honored. Does
this mean I'm somebody?

Fabrizio Mazzoleni said:

Terry Morse said:

Don't discount peer pressure. It's all about riding what the group
thinks is appropriate. I'm a climber, so logically I should have a
15-lb featherweight bike. Or so I've been told, over and over again
by my riding buddies. I ride a 24-lb touring bike.

Must be a pretty easy going group.

They talk mean, but they're really softies.

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No one would ever come back to one of my group rides
if they ever showed up on a 24-lb tourer.

The first order of business would be to drop the weak
link in the group. It wouldn't be very fun for you.

The uphill parts would be fun for me. I'd just sit in on the flat
parts, asking where we'll be stopping for coffee.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

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I know a few of these people. The irony is so many people who
feel this way would be healthier if they would lose 40 pounds.

You hit it right on the head. It's funny to watch guys roll up on
Trek 5900s when they would be faster if they dropped the weight
and rode Trek 520s.

Don't discount peer pressure. It's all about riding what the group
thinks is appropriate. I'm a climber, so logically I should have a
15-lb featherweight bike. Or so I've been told, over and over again
by my riding buddies. I ride a 24-lb touring bike.

The pressure is more than I can bear. I'm now lusting after one of
these:

http://www.scottusa.com/product.php?UID=6234

Your bike is 24lbs by choice; most of the weight is in the components. If
you similarly load down that Scott bike (with the same components and
whatever gear you travel with), you'll lose maybe 2 lbs. You'll also lose a
HUGE psychological advantage, since people will assume you DA MAN when you
show up on a bike like that. They won't be so surprised when you leave them
in the dust on the climbs. Or not... perhaps they'd regard you as a complete
poser and be blown away when they discover you're not.

But your current bike is quietly unassuming. You look just like any other
guy out there, going for the ride. No telegraphing of intentions, ambitions,
or anything at all beyond the fact that you ride a bike. It's not something
that Fabrizio would be proud of, but is that really an issue?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:38:20 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? <[email hidden]>

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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:33:08 GMT, "Fabrizio Mazzoleni"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<ESJvd.508281$nl.280652@pd7tw3no>:

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No one would ever come back to one of my group rides
if they ever showed up on a 24-lb tourer.

Yup. If there's one thing Flabs hates more than being dropped, it's
being dropped by someone on an "inferior" bike. I've no doubt that no
such rider would be welcomed back at all.

One of the roadies in my club, a Klein rider, was seriously [censored]
when I overtook him on my old 1980s steel tourer. Going uphill. With
my dynamo running. And an old Praktica camera in my bike bag.

Guy

Heh. I should find some of you guys when I am in a Huffy mood,
or maybe my newish x-mart mongoose. Now THAT would [censored]
some roadies. The bike is only a small part of the equation
on the flats. Or I could try to set up my Schwinn Super Sport
with a 58/11 combo and go for the top speed (for about two seconds),
if I could pedal it. An MTB with 50PSI really does not have
that much rolling resistance.
Back to get shot at.

--
Bill (?) Baka

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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Heh. I should find some of you guys when I am in a Huffy mood,

or maybe my newish x-mart mongoose. Now THAT would [censored]
some roadies. The bike is only a small part of the equation
on the flats.

Bill, I deal with reality, what you say just doesn't work
like that out there on the road.

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:13:24 GMT, Fabrizio Mazzoleni <[email hidden]>

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"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Heh. I should find some of you guys when I am in a Huffy mood,

or maybe my newish x-mart mongoose. Now THAT would [censored]
some roadies. The bike is only a small part of the equation
on the flats.

Bill, I deal with reality, what you say just doesn't work
like that out there on the road.

Fabs,
It all depends on your fitness and mood (adrenalin/!adrenalin).
I find that when I am in an aggressive mood I can do a lot more.
You guys would probably put me in that mood, even if only just
to prove a point, that it is not only the bike but also the
rider. You can dress up a monkey and feed him, but he will
never say thank you or make an order in a French restaurant.
Gee, sorry about that comparison, it just came to mind.
Maybe I should get that old Motobecane fixed and make that
challenge.
Just having some fun.

--
Bill (?) Baka

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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Fabs,
It all depends on your fitness and mood (adrenalin/!adrenalin).
I find that when I am in an aggressive mood I can do a lot more.

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Maybe I should get that old Motobecane fixed and make that
challenge.

How's your preseason training going?

The Giro della Liguria starts the second week of February.
If you want to be competitive for that then you should have
been ramping up your training intensity over the last couple
of weeks.

By the way, how familiar are you with the climbs of Menosio and
Calderara?

You will be very surprised at just how fit guys like Giuliano Figueras
and Me are at the della Liguria!

Book reservations now to meet us for our recon of the course this
January 4th to the 6th.
http://www.albergo-alberghi.it/

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:52:00 GMT, Fabrizio Mazzoleni <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Bill Baka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Fabs,
It all depends on your fitness and mood (adrenalin/!adrenalin).
I find that when I am in an aggressive mood I can do a lot more.

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should get that old Motobecane fixed and make that
challenge.

How's your preseason training going?

The Giro della Liguria starts the second week of February.
If you want to be competitive for that then you should have
been ramping up your training intensity over the last couple
of weeks.

By the way, how familiar are you with the climbs of Menosio and
Calderara?

You will be very surprised at just how fit guys like Giuliano Figueras
and Me are at the della Liguria!

Book reservations now to meet us for our recon of the course this
January 4th to the 6th.
http://www.albergo-alberghi.it/

I have to ask, since I am not in Europe, about the big climbs.
Just how high an elevation do the highest climbs get to?
I find myself feeling good at 12,000 feet (4Km?) in the states.
That was running around Mount Adams on the US continental divide.
Sorry, didn't have a bike with me. I have been thinking about
dragging myself and a bike to climb Pikes' Peak, and that is
14,000 feet and change. How high can you get on a bike in
Europe?

--
Bill (?) Ba__ka

Bill Baka said:

I have to ask, since I am not in Europe, about the big climbs.
Just how high an elevation do the highest climbs get to?
I find myself feeling good at 12,000 feet (4Km?) in the states.
That was running around Mount Adams on the US continental divide.
Sorry, didn't have a bike with me. I have been thinking about
dragging myself and a bike to climb Pikes' Peak, and that is
14,000 feet and change. How high can you get on a bike in
Europe?

I'm picturing Jobst, Fabrizio and Bill (the latter upon his purple girl's
bike with bell 'n basket) grinding up a snow-covered pass.

Life is good.
--
Great is the road I climb, but the garland offered by an easier effort is
not worth the gathering.
- Propertius (and Bill Baka)

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote

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I'm picturing Jobst, Fabrizio and Bill (the latter upon his purple girl's
bike with bell 'n basket) grinding up a snow-covered pass.

Life is good.

1 riding, the other 2 being towed and gasping.

Pete

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:59:37 GMT, Bill Sornson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka said:

I have to ask, since I am not in Europe, about the big climbs.
Just how high an elevation do the highest climbs get to?
I find myself feeling good at 12,000 feet (4Km?) in the states.
That was running around Mount Adams on the US continental divide.
Sorry, didn't have a bike with me. I have been thinking about
dragging myself and a bike to climb Pikes' Peak, and that is
14,000 feet and change. How high can you get on a bike in
Europe?

I'm picturing Jobst, Fabrizio and Bill (the latter upon his purple girl's
bike with bell 'n basket) grinding up a snow-covered pass.

Life is good.

Said Purple Huffy is now semi-retired, in favor of a Mongoose
non-suspended MTB/General purpose bike. Basket? Hah, It will be saddle
bags first. I am trying to be creative and find out how many water bottles
I can fit to it beyond the standard 2 that have holes drilled. Maybe I can
strap a keg of beer on the back and be a rolling party.
I don't have anyone else to bug tonight but the television is on, so...
Bye.

--
Bill (?) Ba__ka

Bill Baka said:

I have to ask, since I am not in Europe, about the big climbs.
Just how high an elevation do the highest climbs get to?

The highest ones top out around 3000 meters. Most of the famous big
ones seem to fall between 2000-2500 m.

Quoted message said:

I find myself feeling good at 12,000 feet (4Km?) in the states.
That was running around Mount Adams on the US continental divide.
Sorry, didn't have a bike with me. I have been thinking about
dragging myself and a bike to climb Pikes' Peak, and that is
14,000 feet and change.

Skip Pikes Peak and do Mt. Evans instead:

http://www.bicyclerace.com/

Extra credit for doing it on a Huffy.

You may be feeling good at 12k, but your aerobic performance is
limited. My power output at 12k feet is reduced by about 20% from
sea level.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

Bill Baka said:

I have to ask, since I am not in Europe, about the big climbs.
Just how high an elevation do the highest climbs get to?

The highest ones top out around 3000 meters. Most of the famous big
ones seem to fall between 2000-2500 m.

Quoted message said:

I find myself feeling good at 12,000 feet (4Km?) in the states.
That was running around Mount Adams on the US continental divide.
Sorry, didn't have a bike with me. I have been thinking about
dragging myself and a bike to climb Pikes' Peak, and that is
14,000 feet and change.

Skip Pikes Peak and do Mt. Evans instead:

http://www.bicyclerace.com/

Extra credit for doing it on a Huffy.

You may be feeling good at 12k, but your aerobic performance is
limited. My power output at 12k feet is reduced by about 20% from
sea level.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

I have been on Mt. Evans but never Pikes Peak and that was only on foot,
after parking my van. The Huffy is all but worn out so it is now a
Mongoose you get to pick on. So you are saying that the extra 2,000 feet
is a big deal? I can say that my wife and stepdaughter who are both
smokers, sat in the van and could barely breath just sitting there.
I was running around with my daughter who was about 4 at the time.
The only hard part came when she got winded at the bottom of a hill
and I had to give her an uphill piggyback ride, from about 11,850'
back up to the van at the 12,000' marker. I got to the point of some
healthy breathing but not that bad, no light headedness or anything.
I do have a plan for this summer to ride up past Grass Valley and
Nevada City at 2,500' and go up highway 20 to meet interstate 80
at about 6,000 feet. The return is downhill but it will be about a
century and a half if my math is correct. Sutter Buttes are getting
boring. For those who don't know the area, the buttes are the worlds
smallest volcanic mountain range, or so they say around here. I ride
the annual bike around the buttes and it is more of a social event
than a race. I did it one year on an old 3 speed with wire baskets
in the rear and a basket in the front, total Fred mode, my own
rolling refreshment stand. I have to do things different, you know.
Maybe I will see some of you on the next one around April. There is
a century loop to ride also if a mere 40 miles around the hills is
not enough. Maybe I should use the Huffy and see how many pick me out.
Consider this an ad for my local bike community. It is a charity ride
for good cause.
Night time, bed time for me, so see ya.

--
Bill (?) Ba__ka