Tires/pressures the pros use?

begin quoting Roger Marquis <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast turns
and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton (for
example).
Subjective measures are fine if you really don't need the traction
but insufficient for those of us who do.

Sheesh, did you _look_ at the picture?

If you don't need traction then, when _do_ you need it?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

begin quoting dianne_1234 <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 31 Dec 2004 13:51:29 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Gluing on a tubie takes maybe 20 minutes, repairing the same.

Apparently Julien (USPS pro team mechanic) takes four days to glue a
tubular.

Is he paid by the hour, or what? If I was I could probably add a day or so
to the ritual expounded here - sitting under a waterfall Zen-style first
or some such nonsense.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

begin quoting dianne_1234 <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 31 Dec 2004 13:51:29 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Gluing on a tubie takes maybe 20 minutes, repairing the same.

Apparently Julien (USPS pro team mechanic) takes four days to glue a
tubular.

Is he paid by the hour, or what? If I was I could probably add a day or so
to the ritual expounded here - sitting under a waterfall Zen-style first
or some such nonsense.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast turns
and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton (for
example).

I think you should check your history. Though I have never met Herr
Brandt, his name was legend in the Bay Area when I was racing there
(71-73). Story was that he won the Mt. Hamilton hillclimb so many times
that he was encouraged to sit it out so someone else would have a chance.
Of course, there was no "Cat 1" designation then, back in the old ABL of A
days.

There's no rumor mill like Usenet, and this post certainly proves
that. David's story is pure fabrication. None of the old timer's
I know, some of whom raced in the 50s, has ever heard of Jobst
racing. I first attended Mt. Hamliton in '73 but have never seen
Jobst registered. Perhaps you're thinking of the Mt. Hamilton
Challenge, a tour ride, not a race.

BTW, I had a ABLA "cat 1" license in '77.

Quoted message said:

If this story is only legend, I certainly hope to never be corrected
on it.

Consider it corrected.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast turns
and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton (for
example).

I think you should check your history. Though I have never met Herr
Brandt, his name was legend in the Bay Area when I was racing there
(71-73). Story was that he won the Mt. Hamilton hillclimb so many times
that he was encouraged to sit it out so someone else would have a chance.
Of course, there was no "Cat 1" designation then, back in the old ABL of A
days.

There's no rumor mill like Usenet, and this post certainly proves
that. David's story is pure fabrication. None of the old timer's
I know, some of whom raced in the 50s, has ever heard of Jobst
racing. I first attended Mt. Hamliton in '73 but have never seen
Jobst registered. Perhaps you're thinking of the Mt. Hamilton
Challenge, a tour ride, not a race.

BTW, I had a ABLA "cat 1" license in '77.

Quoted message said:

If this story is only legend, I certainly hope to never be corrected
on it.

Consider it corrected.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It's important to remember that, even though bike tires don't hydroplane,

Interesting how people still reference this irrelevant tangent as
an example of the efficacy of smooth treads when nobody has claimed
that any bicycle tire hydroplanes.

Quoted message said:

Tread won't help this; all you're doing
is reducing surface area and increasing tread squirm.

Last time I heard this line on a ride was from an Oregon rider.
We were riding up Pinehurst in a light rain. He fell on the 180deg
switchback from losing traction on his slick tire whereas I rode
the same line and had no problem.

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It's important to remember that, even though bike tires don't hydroplane,

Interesting how people still reference this irrelevant tangent as
an example of the efficacy of smooth treads when nobody has claimed
that any bicycle tire hydroplanes.

Quoted message said:

Tread won't help this; all you're doing
is reducing surface area and increasing tread squirm.

Last time I heard this line on a ride was from an Oregon rider.
We were riding up Pinehurst in a light rain. He fell on the 180deg
switchback from losing traction on his slick tire whereas I rode
the same line and had no problem.

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Roger Marquis said:

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

I'd take that bet in a minute. The bigger tire conforms to the ground and
maintains contact better. Riding fat slicks like that is like riding a sports
motorcycle. Not to mention the mountain bikes that use them are more stable,
and usually have suspension. The point of this is that other variables are
being eliminated, and the rubber being pushed closer to its actual limit.

Matt O.

Roger Marquis said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast
> turns and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton
(for example).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you should check your history. Though I have never met
Herr Brandt, his name was legend in the Bay Area when I was racing
there (71-73). Story was that he won the Mt. Hamilton hillclimb so
many times that he was encouraged to sit it out so someone else
would have a chance. Of course, there was no "Cat 1" designation
then, back in the old ABL of A days.

Quoted message said:

There's no rumor mill like Usenet, and this post certainly proves
that. David's story is pure fabrication. None of the old timer's I
know, some of whom raced in the 50s, has ever heard of Jobst racing.
I first attended Mt. Hamliton in '73 but have never seen Jobst
registered. Perhaps you're thinking of the Mt. Hamilton Challenge,
a tour ride, not a race.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I had a ABLA "cat 1" license in '77.

When I raced, there was no ABL Cat 1 but only Junior and Senior. I
also used my ABL license to race in my last race in Camaiore Italy in
1960 (pre Olympic invitational) where I realized that there were
people who needed to race more than I and that I liked bicycling too
much to make hard competition of it.

As you can see from reports I wrote about riding the Alps, it is a
great adventure. I initiated the Mt. Hamilton bicycle race because I
didn't like downtown criteriums that prevailed in our area, ones where
intimidation and crashing other riders was part of the game. The
first Mt. Hamilton race took place in 1958, won by Rik Bronson and the
1959 one by Lars Zebroski, while I was serving in the US Army Europe.

I had cast the bronze trophies in the foundry at Stanford and
purchased the pair of road wheels for the KOM, Fiamme Red, Campagnolo
hubs, Stella spokes and a pair of Campionato del Mundo Clement tires.
At that time the back side of Mt. Hamilton was a partly dirt road that
crossed gravel fords through running Arroyo Bayo. Parts of that road
are still visible today (at the red cursor on the map):

http://tinyurl.com/4daly

We were the Pedale Alpini bicycle club that had no members, no
officers, no dues; just riders who wore the same jersey and registered
"independent" on their entry forms, although it became a registered
club later. Rik Bronson and George Koenig were the originators of
that club and had the green and white jerseys made in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If this story is only legend, I certainly hope to never be corrected
on it.

Quoted message said:

Consider it corrected.

I don't think you recall or weren't involved in those days. In the
later 1960's I dragged the local riders on "training" rides through
the Santa Cruz mountains and over Mt. Hamilton on many a weekend.
That is where the stories arose, not from my racing. We had a blast.
As I said to Bill Robertson on a trip in the Alps after more than
200km, "Bill do you realize that the only reason we are stopping is
that it's getting dark. We could ride forever!" That's the way it
was. That year Bill was state road champion, the year I took the
poster picture of him on the of the Gavia (16% sign) when it was a
dirt road.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Why do you think the pro's used Clement Paris-Roubaix or Vittoria
special Pave on the cobbles.......????????????

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It's important to remember that, even though bike tires don't hydroplane,

(rm)> Interesting how people still reference this irrelevant
tangent as

Quoted message said:

an example of the efficacy of smooth treads when nobody has claimed
that any bicycle tire hydroplanes.

(mj)>>Tread won't help this; all you're doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is reducing surface area and increasing tread squirm.

Roger Marquis said:

Last time I heard this line on a ride was from an Oregon rider.
We were riding up Pinehurst in a light rain. He fell on the 180deg
switchback from losing traction on his slick tire whereas I rode
the same line and had no problem.

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

Are you are actually claiming that tread matters on a paved
surface to a 2-wheel vehicle? YGBSM.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tread won't help this; all you're doing
is reducing surface area and increasing tread squirm.

Last time I heard this line on a ride was from an Oregon rider.
We were riding up Pinehurst in a light rain. He fell on the 180deg
switchback from losing traction on his slick tire whereas I rode
the same line and had no problem.

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

Roger:

I think the reason the Avocet Fat Boy is slipping is because it's seriously
confused; isn't Fat Boy a Specialized tire?

More seriously, I doubt tread pattern had anything to do with why you made
it through the switchback and your friend didn't. Regarding following the
"same line", unless you were actually in each other's tire tracks, I doubt
that was the case. Something as thin as a pebble in the wrong place might
make the difference between staying up or going down, not to mention the
skill of the rider and your familiarity with the road. The latter could be
significant; you're likely staying calm, loose and in control, while someone
nervous is far more likely to react badly to poor road conditions.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Roger Marquis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It's important to remember that, even though bike tires don't hydroplane,

Interesting how people still reference this irrelevant tangent as
an example of the efficacy of smooth treads when nobody has claimed
that any bicycle tire hydroplanes.

Quoted message said:

Tread won't help this; all you're doing
is reducing surface area and increasing tread squirm.

Last time I heard this line on a ride was from an Oregon rider.
We were riding up Pinehurst in a light rain. He fell on the 180deg
switchback from losing traction on his slick tire whereas I rode
the same line and had no problem.

Tell you what Mike, if you'll put a slick Avocet Fat Boy on the
back I'll keep my Vittoria Special Pave and we'll both ride up
Redwood Gulch when it's wet. I'll bet you $100 dollars your slick
Fat Boy won't hold a candle to my treaded Pave, uphill or down.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast turns
and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton (for
example).

So because I *did* race in such fields, I'm more competent to discuss
matters of tire traction than Jobst? Not in this world! There's nothing so
unique and special about a Cat 1 field descending that a skilled individual
who's never raced before can't duplicate. It might even be easier descending
in a race, because there's a certain (false) sense of confidence that says,
if he can make it through with that line, so can I.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Roger Marquis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better than what. I've spent a lot of miles banked over in fast turns
and have not felt clinchers to have poorer traction

That may be because, not having raced, Jobst has never compared
traction with the cat. 1 field on the backside of Mt. Hamliton (for
example).

Subjective measures are fine if you really don't need the traction
but insufficient for those of us who do. Subjective measures based
on tires used 10+ years ago are entirely worthless.

Quoted message said:

That is one of the reasons I no longer ride on them but the separation
from tubulars was accelerated by the end of Clement tires in Milano,
where the best ones were made.

I went through many Criterium Setas, Criterium Cottons, Seta-Extras,
and other Clements from '73 through '96 and never liked the fragile
sidewalls. The Paris-Roubaix was a good tire, and Tipos great on
the track, but Vittoria has always made the better tubular in the
230-360g range.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

jobst.brandt said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you should check your history. Though I have never met
Herr Brandt, his name was legend in the Bay Area when I was racing
there (71-73). Story was that he won the Mt. Hamilton hillclimb so
many times that he was encouraged to sit it out so someone else
would have a chance. Of course, there was no "Cat 1" designation
then, back in the old ABL of A days.

Quoted message said:

There's no rumor mill like Usenet, and this post certainly proves
that. David's story is pure fabrication. None of the old timer's I
know, some of whom raced in the 50s, has ever heard of Jobst racing.
I first attended Mt. Hamliton in '73 but have never seen Jobst
registered. Perhaps you're thinking of the Mt. Hamilton Challenge,
a tour ride, not a race.

Well, since this was corrected by the man himself, I will simply point out
that this particular story far pre-dated usenet. It was not exactly
pre-UNIVAC, but pretty close. I first heard that story in maybe 1970, so
his lack of registration in 1973 would not be inconsistent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, I had a ABLA "cat 1" license in '77.

Well, I last had a racing license in 1975, which is when they were
formulating those categories. I was then living in Massachusetts, where
the racing was largely crits, which I never enjoyed.

Quoted message said:

As you can see from reports I wrote about riding the Alps, it is a great
adventure. I initiated the Mt. Hamilton bicycle race because I didn't
like downtown criteriums that prevailed in our area, ones where
intimidation and crashing other riders was part of the game. The first
Mt. Hamilton race took place in 1958, won by Rik Bronson and the 1959
one by Lars Zebroski, while I was serving in the US Army Europe.

So, you organized the race. I guess I can see how the story evolved, then.

Quoted message said:

I don't think you recall or weren't involved in those days. In the
later 1960's I dragged the local riders on "training" rides through the
Santa Cruz mountains and over Mt. Hamilton on many a weekend. That is
where the stories arose, not from my racing.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

Why do you think the pro's used Clement Paris-Roubaix or Vittoria
special Pave on the cobbles.......????????????

Because they have a larger diameter that's better suited for choppy pave?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

So because I *did* race in such fields, I'm more competent to discuss
matters of tire traction than Jobst?

Difficult to say, however, there is no way to learn how to descend
at the limits of traction without doing it competitively, in races.
Your racing experience may or may not have served that purpose
depending on how long ago it occurred, what category you raced, and
what races. Also, it is not a skill that can be maintained without
regular and frequent competitive practice.

Quoted message said:

There's nothing so
unique and special about a Cat 1 field descending that a skilled individual
who's never raced before can't duplicate.

Going by that logic we should all be able to descend with the pros
by simply reading RBT.

That said I would note that Jobst is one of the best non-competitive
descenders I've ridden with. We used to do some hard descending,
both on and off road, with the West Coast's best including Keith
Vierra, Dave Mac, and Sterling McBride.

I should also note that Michelin Axials have very little tread and,
in my experience, excellent traction.

Back to the original question, how would someone like Jobst be able
to compare the traction of today's clinchers with tubulars which
he has not used in over a decade?

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

A Muzi said:

Are you are actually claiming that tread matters on a paved
surface to a 2-wheel vehicle? YGBSM.

Yes. the first time I get passed by someone with slick tires on a
wet descent I will have reason to question that opinion, but it
hasn't happened yet.

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/

Roger Marquis said:

A Muzi said:

Are you are actually claiming that tread matters on a paved
surface to a 2-wheel vehicle? YGBSM.

Yes. the first time I get passed by someone with slick tires on a
wet descent I will have reason to question that opinion, but it
hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for the clarification, however, I don't believe that anyone has
suggested that (cosmetic) treads slow one down. The issue is whether
they have an observable effect.

Joe

Joe Riel said:

Roger Marquis said:

A Muzi said:

Are you are actually claiming that tread matters on a paved
surface to a 2-wheel vehicle? YGBSM.

Yes. the first time I get passed by someone with slick tires on a
wet descent I will have reason to question that opinion, but it
hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for the clarification, however, I don't believe that anyone has
suggested that (cosmetic) treads slow one down. The issue is whether
they have an observable effect.

Joe

Dear Joe,

I thought that it was often claimed that tread patterns have
two effects--poorer traction on pavement and greater rolling
resistance everywhere.

Since I may have misunderstood some people or confused one
person's position about wet car tires with someone else's
opinion about dry bicycle tires, I'll try to phrase the
questions to invite anyone interested to clarify things.

If patterns are carved into tread, does it improve pavement
traction, reduce it, or leave it the same?

Does it matter if the pavement is dry, wet, or sandy?

Do patterns affect rolling resistance?

Does it matter whether the tire is a rounded bicycle-style
tire or a flat car-style tire?

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There's nothing so
unique and special about a Cat 1 field descending that a skilled
individual
who's never raced before can't duplicate.

Going by that logic we should all be able to descend with the pros
by simply reading RBT.

No, that would be wreck.bicycles.racing (RBR). But it's not about reading,
it's about doing. You observe, and follow the same line & technique through.
Confidence is very important, and I'm sure you've come across people who
seem to be born descenders, even newbies to racing. At least until their
first big crash, at which point they either get rattled and never descend
well again, or come back from it saying gee, if that's the worst that can
happen, I'm going to keep having fun! I generally fell into the later
category, and actually found my descending skills tended to deteriorate if
there was a long time between crashes. I'd start getting too conservative,
thinking it's been a while since going down, etc. Juniors can be really dumb
that way.

I've spent enough time in France, watching the pros, that I no longer
believe that most of them descend in a manner that's extraordinary. I should
rephrase that. They descend quickly, they take risks now and then, but they
know they have a closed road (where they can use the full width) and, in
really tight corners, they really do slow way down. They're human and obey
the same laws of physics as the rest of us.

That's not to say that most cyclists are at all comfortable descending at
such speeds!!! But I think many mistakenly believe they descend at
ridiculous velocities based upon Phil L mixing up KMs and MPHs.

Quoted message said:

Back to the original question, how would someone like Jobst be able
to compare the traction of today's clinchers with tubulars which
he has not used in over a decade?

Was that the original question? I thought it was about tire choice &
pressure. But I might ask in return, have you seen marked changes in the
quality of tubulars over the years? Seems to me that a Vittoria CX doesn't
look all that much different from what they sold many years ago. When I
checked Vittoria's website, I didn't find much to indicate that things have
changed much from back-in-the-day. However, you've consistently ridden
tubulars from then on. Do you find the current tires to be better than the
older ones? I'm curious about this one, as it appears one of our
more-popular models will be available primarily tubular-equipped. The heck
with Jobst, I'm going to need to get back up to speed!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Roger Marquis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

So because I *did* race in such fields, I'm more competent to discuss
matters of tire traction than Jobst?

Difficult to say, however, there is no way to learn how to descend
at the limits of traction without doing it competitively, in races.
Your racing experience may or may not have served that purpose
depending on how long ago it occurred, what category you raced, and
what races. Also, it is not a skill that can be maintained without
regular and frequent competitive practice.

Quoted message said:

There's nothing so
unique and special about a Cat 1 field descending that a skilled
individual
who's never raced before can't duplicate.

Going by that logic we should all be able to descend with the pros
by simply reading RBT.

That said I would note that Jobst is one of the best non-competitive
descenders I've ridden with. We used to do some hard descending,
both on and off road, with the West Coast's best including Keith
Vierra, Dave Mac, and Sterling McBride.

I should also note that Michelin Axials have very little tread and,
in my experience, excellent traction.

Back to the original question, how would someone like Jobst be able
to compare the traction of today's clinchers with tubulars which
he has not used in over a decade?

--
Roger Marquis
http://www.roble.net/marquis/