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WALKING ON NEW OPEN ACCESS LAND

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
6 January 2005
Last activity
23 January 2005
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[censored] Gays
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  1. The following is rather long, I hope you will bear with me.

    The new open access areas opened so recently that it is hardly
    surprising that some walkers are finding minor problems, as I have
    myself in the Peak District.

    The new explorer maps clearly mark the areas and the boundaries of
    access land, as does the Countryside Agency's web site. Good and
    accurate as it is, it does not give any information whatsoever as to
    where access points, gates or styles are.

    It is all very well knowing that you have every right to be on land both
    sides of a dry-stone wall, but you need to know where to cross. (Fast
    approaching 70, I am happy with 12-15 mile walks with up to 3000 feet of
    ascent, but no longer have the agility to vault lightly over these
    obstacles without minor damage to the walls and major damage to myself).

    When following a right-of-way, where the map shows a field boundary, one
    can be quite certain to find a gate or a style as a means of crossing
    that boundary. In the now rare event of no such gate or style, if you
    know you are in the right place, you are quite entitled to take whatever
    route you are safely able to negotiate.

    Already some of the newly opened access areas have way marked routes
    across them, you are not obliged to follow these routes, you have the
    right to roam, but they do indicate a safe and reasonably direct or
    interesting route from one access point to another.

    As an example, take Hollins Hill on The White Peak map. There is a way-
    marked route from the right-of-way at SK058679 near Booth Farm, up to
    the summit. This route starts to the south of the wall line, then goes
    through a new walkers gate at SK059679 to continue to the summit on the
    north side of the wall. From the summit the route goes roughly south
    along the ridge, passing through a new walkers gate at SK060678 to a new
    style at SK062673. Between the last gate and this style you may if you
    wish, descend to the Swallow Brook, but it is stiff climb back again as
    there is no legal exit down there.

    The route continues down the ridge to a new walkers gate at SK063671,
    from here descending on a new consessionary path (which is not on open
    access land), down to rejoin a right-of-way at SK061670.

    Can anyone tell me where to find information on other such routes on
    open access land, or information about access points, gates, or styles
    etc? It is very difficult to plan a walk without this information. Is
    there a Web site somewhere that I have failed to find?

    [censored] Gays, Leicester.

    --
    Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

  2. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "[censored] Gays" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Can anyone tell me where to find information on other such routes on
    open access land, or information about access points, gates, or styles
    etc? It is very difficult to plan a walk without this information. Is
    there a Web site somewhere that I have failed to find?

    I am not aware of any and AFAICT OS maps even at the largest scale I
    have seen (1:1250) don't show field gates except where a track or road
    passes through.

    Land owners have to get into their fields so there will always be at
    least one gate but they rarely have a need to get onto someone elses
    land so unless there is a ROW there is unlikely to be any connection
    between land in different ownership.

    It would be possible for the OS to come up with a symbol and mark field
    entries in access land but that would require then to actually do
    something in return for the large sums of money they extract from
    walkers but as it is the OS don't hold your breath.

    There is no reason why somebody couldn't set up a website dedicated just
    to field entries in particular access areas from which interested
    parties could download the grid references. If there was sufficient
    support for such an idea (ie field volunteers) it would be relatively
    easy to construct a map of field boundaries/entries from gps tracks and
    gaily wave two fingures at the OS when they attempted to claim
    copyright. They have no copyright in the National Grid nor anything that
    is collected by a gps.

    --
    Roger Chapman

  3. "Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There is no reason why somebody couldn't set up a website dedicated just
    to field entries in particular access areas from which interested
    parties could download the grid references. If there was sufficient
    support for such an idea (ie field volunteers) it would be relatively
    easy to construct a map of field boundaries/entries from gps tracks and
    gaily wave two fingures at the OS when they attempted to claim
    copyright. They have no copyright in the National Grid nor anything that
    is collected by a gps.

    --
    Roger Chapman

    Who invented the National Grid, then ? I'd agree with you with respect to
    Lat. & Long.

    --
    M Stewart
    Milton Keynes, UK
    http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

  4. Malcolm Stewart said:

    Who invented the National Grid, then ? I'd agree with you with respect to
    Lat. & Long.

    The British military. As it was more than 50 years ago any Crown Copyright
    has expired.
    --
    Dave

  5. "[censored] Gays" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The following is rather long, I hope you will bear with me.

    The new open access areas opened so recently that it is hardly
    surprising that some walkers are finding minor problems, as I have
    myself in the Peak District.

    The new explorer maps clearly mark the areas and the boundaries of
    access land, as does the Countryside Agency's web site. Good and
    accurate as it is, it does not give any information whatsoever as to
    where access points, gates or styles are.


    This is a good point and one I struggled with when the idea of open
    access first came round. Although the public may well have a right to
    roam on certain types of land, I can't see the landowners being
    responsible for maintaining access, although I haven't read the
    documentation to any level which might offer an an answer (..anyone?).

    There is an area of access land which has been well estabished,
    between Settle and Malham, where I once tried out this freedom to roam
    business, and I felt quite uneasy about it. What gates there were,
    were clearly not designed to be walked through: some were tied up with
    impossible knots, others would have broken if I'd put all my weight on
    them.

    Presumably the threat of retribution for damaging private property
    still exists, so GOML signs may well be replaced by Keep Orf My
    Wall/Fence/Gate signs?

    I can only assume that in the long term access points may well become
    more abundant, and will be shown, if they are official, on OS maps.

    Graham

  6. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Roger <[email hidden]> said
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    There is no reason why somebody couldn't set up a website dedicated just
    to field entries in particular access areas from which interested
    parties could download the grid references.

    Interesting idea - right now I am collecting stiles/gates in Shropshire
    and sticking them into Garmin GPS (.img format) map, however would be
    pretty easy to post the lat/long, or (slightly more work) OSGB grid
    references. Or indeed publish a suitable .mp file for use with
    gpsmapedit, which allows users to pan/zoom and overlay Oziexplorer .map
    files.

    From my travels around here, it's reasonably easy to work out where
    there =must= be something from 1:25k maps, using ROW, path, and track
    data. It's not too hard to guess where there 'probably is' something,
    where fields adjoin public roads (one or other corner are the
    favourites, although sometimes hedge removal means the corners are now
    someplace else). Gets a bit harder away from civilization .. aerial
    photos might give a clue though.

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

  7. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]>
    contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Who invented the National Grid, then ? I'd agree with you with respect to
    Lat. & Long.

    I have no idea who invented the concept of a National Grid but the grid
    system the OS uses dates back at the very least to 1946 and (I think)
    the very most to 1938. It is thus out of copyright should it ever have
    been copyrightable at all which is an argument some favour. However the
    story doesn't stop there. The system was lifted with very little changes
    (and thus no extension of crown copyright) from that in use on military
    maps from 1927 known as the Modified British System. The only
    differences being a small movement in the true origin of the grid and
    the repositioning of the false origin from the SE corner of the 500 km
    square labelled V to the SE corner of that labelled S. Also taken from
    the military was the traditional layout of how to give a Grid reference
    although the wording has changed somewhat.

    The system in use between 1919 and 1927 was known (funnily enough) to
    the military as the British System. This was based on 10 Km grid squares
    identified by single letters and had the considerable disadvantage of
    producing seemingly identical grid references at relatively close
    intervals.

    The only prewar map I have is a 1" of the Popular series from 1932 with
    the alpha-numeral grid system that is still in use in A-Zs and some road
    atlases. There is no instruction on how to give a grid reference as
    there is no meaningful way to give an accurate position.

    --
    Roger Chapman

  8. In message <[email hidden]>

    Roger said:

    The only prewar map I have is a 1" of the Popular series from 1932 with
    the alpha-numeral grid system that is still in use in A-Zs and some road
    atlases. There is no instruction on how to give a grid reference as
    there is no meaningful way to give an accurate position.

    I've the same on a map from at least 1937 (that's the date on the compass
    for the magnetic north offset, and Haweswater is not dammed on it, although
    there's no specific map date anywhere else), which backs up your "at least
    1938" estimate. There doesn't seem to be anything significant about the
    size of the squares (just over 2 miles and under 3 km), but there are lat /
    long markings all the way around the map, at 1' intervals.

    --
    The Acorn Elite Pages: http://elite.acornarcade.com/
    Three Dimensional Encounters:
    http://www.helvellyn.plus.com/3dfrontier

  9. "Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]>
    contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Who invented the National Grid, then ? I'd agree with you with


    respect to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lat. & Long.

    I have no idea who invented the concept of a National Grid but the


    grid

    Quoted message said:

    system the OS uses dates back at the very least to 1946 and (I


    think)

    Quoted message said:

    the very most to 1938.


    <snip>
    1945 would seem to be the date that the modified Transverse Mercator
    projection was (largely) adopted - the present grid is based on this
    projection. The Davidson Committee's recomendations were published in
    1938 and a Nat Grid was recommendation no 3.

    Graham

  10. On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:44:29 +0000 (UTC), "[censored] Gays"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    | The following is rather long, I hope you will bear with me.
    |
    | The new open access areas opened so recently that it is hardly
    | surprising that some walkers are finding minor problems, as I have
    | myself in the Peak District.

    I use a pair of sharp eyes to read the landscape, sheep/cattle/landrover
    tracks lead to an exit. I look for small changes in the appearance of
    the far wall. Otherwise I head for high ground where I can survey the far
    wall. My Swiss army knife will undo any knot, and I still remember scout
    knots from <mumble> years ago. I was taught to climb a drystone wall or
    gate without doing damage in the late 40s/50s, and have not yet lost those
    skills.
    --
    Dave F

  11. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
    person spongebob <[email hidden]> said
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    There is an area of access land which has been well estabished,
    between Settle and Malham, where I once tried out this freedom to roam
    business, and I felt quite uneasy about it. What gates there were,
    were clearly not designed to be walked through: some were tied up with
    impossible knots, others would have broken if I'd put all my weight on
    them.

    That's about the same as applies to 90% of the gates on public rights of
    way even outside the access areas. Farmers just don't feel their stock
    is secure if they haven't tied something impossible in baler twine (or,
    on a bad day, using barbed wire). 8<,

    I always try to leave them a 'more interesting' knot than they left me.
    8>. Of course, it may be some other poor walker who benefits ..

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

  12. On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 20:45:55 +0000, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I was taught to climb a drystone wall ... without doing damage in the
    late 40s/50s, and have not yet lost those skills.

    Do you mean simply that you were taught "to be careful" or is there a
    technique which you can explain here?

    saki

  13. GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Roger <[email hidden]> said
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    There is no reason why somebody couldn't set up a website dedicated just
    to field entries in particular access areas from which interested
    parties could download the grid references.

    Interesting idea - right now I am collecting stiles/gates in Shropshire
    and sticking them into Garmin GPS (.img format) map, however would be
    pretty easy to post the lat/long, or (slightly more work) OSGB grid
    references. Or indeed publish a suitable .mp file for use with
    gpsmapedit, which allows users to pan/zoom and overlay Oziexplorer .map
    files.

    From my travels around here, it's reasonably easy to work out where
    there =must= be something from 1:25k maps, using ROW, path, and track
    data. It's not too hard to guess where there 'probably is' something,
    where fields adjoin public roads (one or other corner are the
    favourites, although sometimes hedge removal means the corners are now
    someplace else). Gets a bit harder away from civilization .. aerial
    photos might give a clue though.

    This sounds like a lifetime's work to me. :-)
    --
    Gordon Harris

  14. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "spongebob" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    1945 would seem to be the date that the modified Transverse Mercator
    projection was (largely) adopted - the present grid is based on this
    projection. The Davidson Committee's recomendations were published in
    1938 and a Nat Grid was recommendation no 3.

    That might be where I got the 1938 date from but surely it is the map
    that is based on the projection and the grid not much more than an
    overlay.

    Did the Davidson Committee admit to pinching the War Offices existing
    grid system?

    --
    Roger Chapman

  15. The message <[email hidden]>
    from Simon Challands <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The only prewar map I have is a 1" of the Popular series from 1932 with
    the alpha-numeral grid system that is still in use in A-Zs and some road
    atlases. There is no instruction on how to give a grid reference as
    there is no meaningful way to give an accurate position.

    Quoted message said:

    I've the same on a map from at least 1937 (that's the date on the compass
    for the magnetic north offset, and Haweswater is not dammed on it, although
    there's no specific map date anywhere else), which backs up your "at least
    1938" estimate. There doesn't seem to be anything significant about the
    size of the squares (just over 2 miles and under 3 km), but there are lat /
    long markings all the way around the map, at 1' intervals.

    Ha, that is usually how I fine date a map but I missed it on this one
    and took the reprint date. Reason I missed the compass was because it
    was in the sea rather than the margin. Anyway Jan 1925 was a bit early
    when the reprint and road update were both 32. I think you will find the
    grid is in 2 mile squares. My map has Lat/long at 5' intervals in the
    margin.

    --
    Roger Chapman

  16. saki <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 20:45:55 +0000, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I was taught to climb a drystone wall ... without doing damage in the
    late 40s/50s, and have not yet lost those skills.

    Do you mean simply that you were taught "to be careful" or is there a
    technique which you can explain here?


    I always thought the Countryside Code advises never to climb dry stone
    walls. I never do except in extreme circumstances.
    --
    Gordon Harris

  17. Gordon Harris said:

    saki <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 20:45:55 +0000, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I was taught to climb a drystone wall ... without doing damage in the
    late 40s/50s, and have not yet lost those skills.

    Do you mean simply that you were taught "to be careful" or is there a
    technique which you can explain here?


    I always thought the Countryside Code advises never to climb dry stone
    walls. I never do except in extreme circumstances.

    PLEASE don't climb even very strong-looking dry-stone walls !!! As
    someone who sometimes has to rebuild such walls - you have probably no
    idea how long it takes to rebuild even a few feet of wall ! There's
    usually no way of doing a repair - it all has to come down (one or two
    days hard work) and then be rebuilt (could be days and days). It's OK
    for me, I'm retired, but a busy farmer trying to survive can't spare
    the time, so he'll just string a bit of barbed wire. Very sad.

    You might appear to have climbed it OK, but if the balance is
    disturbed, it might fall next week due entirely to your climbing it.

    Jim Hutton

  18. On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 00:16:21 +0000, Jim Hutton
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    PLEASE don't climb even very strong-looking dry-stone walls !!! As
    someone who sometimes has to rebuild such walls - you have probably no
    idea how long it takes to rebuild even a few feet of wall ! There's
    usually no way of doing a repair - it all has to come down (one or two
    days hard work) and then be rebuilt (could be days and days). It's OK
    for me, I'm retired, but a busy farmer trying to survive can't spare
    the time, so he'll just string a bit of barbed wire. Very sad.

    You might appear to have climbed it OK, but if the balance is
    disturbed, it might fall next week due entirely to your climbing it.

    It's interesting to hear how this works from a farmer's perspective.

    What part of the country did you farm in, Jim?

    Best wishes,
    --
    ,,
    (**)PeeWiglet~~
    / \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

  19. Jim Hutton said:


    PLEASE don't climb even very strong-looking dry-stone walls !!! As
    someone who sometimes has to rebuild such walls - you have probably no
    idea how long it takes to rebuild even a few feet of wall ! There's
    usually no way of doing a repair - it all has to come down (one or two
    days hard work) and then be rebuilt (could be days and days). It's OK
    for me, I'm retired, but a busy farmer trying to survive can't spare the
    time, so he'll just string a bit of barbed wire. Very sad.

    That is why I asked my question. I don't climb them and took a long
    detour in access land on Sunday to avoid doing so. If, however, there was
    a safe technique to learn I would be delighted.

    saki

  20. "saki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
    : On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 00:16:21 +0000, Jim Hutton wrote:
    : >
    : > PLEASE don't climb even very strong-looking dry-stone walls !!! As
    : > someone who sometimes has to rebuild such walls - you have probably no
    : > idea how long it takes to rebuild even a few feet of wall ! There's
    : > usually no way of doing a repair - it all has to come down (one or two
    : > days hard work) and then be rebuilt (could be days and days). It's OK
    : > for me, I'm retired, but a busy farmer trying to survive can't spare the
    : > time, so he'll just string a bit of barbed wire. Very sad.
    :
    : That is why I asked my question. I don't climb them and took a long
    : detour in access land on Sunday to avoid doing so. If, however, there was
    : a safe technique to learn I would be delighted.
    :
    : saki
    Take a ladder with you!
    Bob

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