Titanium dropout cracking problems.................????

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
with the dropouts cracking.

What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many? Anyplace
we can see these 'reports'.

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin said that
he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems with the
dropouts cracking.

I have heard reports that many steel frames are having problems with the
steel getting softer over the years...

Frank said:

I have heard reports that many steel frames are having problems with the
steel getting softer over the years...

Got to stop taking those rides in the annealing oven. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems with
the dropouts cracking.

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely 0.000000000000%.

Then again, the number of Habanero frames that have had a BENT dropout
is the same, so I think it's safe to say that they might be overbuilt
to the point where fatigue is not going to be a problem. Some other
builders have different philosophies about that kind of thing...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely 0.000000000000%.

Then again, the number of Habanero frames that have had a BENT dropout
is the same, so I think it's safe to say that they might be overbuilt
to the point where fatigue is not going to be a problem. Some other
builders have different philosophies about that kind of thing...

The above statement does not hold up to scrutiny. Unless every Habanero
frame has a fail-proof secret tracking device that reports any distress
that occurs, it can only be stated that no failures of these types have
been reported and/or observed by the manufacturer. An opinion may be
formed from the available evidence that the dropouts on Habanero frames
are designed such that they do not fail at a significant frequency in
normal use, but not a categorical statement that such failures have
never occurred.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely
0.000000000000%. Then again, the number of Habanero frames that
have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
that they might be overbuilt to the point where fatigue is not
going to be a problem. Some other builders have different
philosophies about that kind of thing...

The above statement does not hold up to scrutiny. Unless every
Habanero frame has a fail-proof secret tracking device that reports
any distress that occurs, it can only be stated that no failures of
these types have been reported and/or observed by the
manufacturer. An opinion may be formed from the available evidence
that the dropouts on Habanero frames are designed such that they do
not fail at a significant frequency in normal use, but not a
categorical statement that such failures have never occurred.

Since Mark is the owner of Habanero Cycles, he is the best authority
available on whether a Habanero titanium frame has ever suffered a
broken or bent dropout. While he is neither prescient nor
clairvoyant, there is some potential for error, but presumably his
customers would be calling him if their dropouts were breaking or
bending.

Have a look at his Web site. His frames do appear rather overbuilt in
the rear triangle, but titanium is such that this can be done with no
significant weight penalty. I can well believe his frames have not
had a failure here.

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems with
the dropouts cracking.

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely 0.000000000000%.

Then again, the number of Habanero frames that have had a BENT dropout
is the same, so I think it's safe to say that they might be overbuilt
to the point where fatigue is not going to be a problem. Some other
builders have different philosophies about that kind of thing...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Hmm. Thus Habanero has produced about as many frames as there are
grains of sand on the beaches of the world without a single failure.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Tim McNamara said:

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely
0.000000000000%. Then again, the number of Habanero frames that
have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
that they might be overbuilt to the point where fatigue is not
going to be a problem. Some other builders have different
philosophies about that kind of thing...

The above statement does not hold up to scrutiny. Unless every
Habanero frame has a fail-proof secret tracking device that reports
any distress that occurs, it can only be stated that no failures of
these types have been reported and/or observed by the
manufacturer. An opinion may be formed from the available evidence
that the dropouts on Habanero frames are designed such that they do
not fail at a significant frequency in normal use, but not a
categorical statement that such failures have never occurred.

Since Mark is the owner of Habanero Cycles, he is the best authority
available on whether a Habanero titanium frame has ever suffered a
broken or bent dropout. While he is neither prescient nor
clairvoyant, there is some potential for error, but presumably his
customers would be calling him if their dropouts were breaking or
bending.

Saying an event is unlikely is not the same as being able to say with
certainty that it has not occurred.

A consulting engineer in the same position as Mark Hickey could
justifiably render a professional opinion [1] that the dropouts on
Habanero frames were adequately designed for their intended purpose.
However, if a consulting engineer made a statement similar to Mark
Hickey's in a deliverable to a client, he/she would be rendering his/her
firm practically defenseless in a negligence suit, since an absolute
statement was made without evidence to back it up.

Quoted message said:

Have a look at his Web site. His frames do appear rather overbuilt in
the rear triangle, but titanium is such that this can be done with no
significant weight penalty. I can well believe his frames have not
had a failure here.

The above is irreverent to my argument, since while it does strengthen
the case for forming an opinion that Habanero dropouts are adequately
designed, it does nothing to prove that there have been NO instances of
dropout failure on Habanero frames.

[1] For those unfamiliar with the US legal system, a licensed
professional can be found negligent and held financially accountable for
expressing an incorrect professional opinion to a client.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Bob Wheeler said:

Mark Hickey said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely 0.000000000000%....

Hmm. Thus Habanero has produced about as many frames as there are
grains of sand on the beaches of the world without a single failure.

If we take one mole [1] of Habanero frames, how many dropout failures
could we expect?

Also known as Avocado's (sic) number. See
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/09e1320184b9c7b7?dmode=source>.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Tom Sherman said:

Also known as Avocado's (sic) number. See
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/09e1320184b9c7b7?dmode=source>.

Are there more molecules of H2O in a glass of water, or glasses of water
in the oceans of the world? If you know Avogadro's number, 6.02 x
10^23, you can show it's the former, by a country mile.

Assuming a small glass is 250ml, one mole of water is 18g or 18ml [1],
so that's 13.89 moles and 8.36 x 10^24 molecules.

Multiply 250ml by 8.36 x 10^24 and you get 2.09 x 10^24 litres, which is
2.09 x 10^21 cubic metres.

That's a cube of water with sides of about 8000 miles (lapsing into
non-SI units), which is as near as dammit the diameter of the Earth,
which is an sort of squashed sphere. So you could fit the whole Earth
into that cube.

[1] OK, it isn't really - the French got their standard kilogram a few
millionths of a per cent wrong and a litre is now defined as 1 cubic
decimetre, not the volume of 1 kg of water.

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely
0.000000000000%. Then again, the number of Habanero frames that
have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
that they might be overbuilt to the point where fatigue is not
going to be a problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The above statement does not hold up to scrutiny. Unless every
Habanero frame has a fail-proof secret tracking device that reports
any distress that occurs, it can only be stated that no failures of
these types have been reported and/or observed by the
manufacturer. An opinion may be formed from the available evidence
that the dropouts on Habanero frames are designed such that they do
not fail at a significant frequency in normal use, but not a
categorical statement that such failures have never occurred.

Well, since Mark offers a guarantee, and probably most if not all of them
are still in the warrentee period, he'd probably hear about it. I know I
would let him know if my dropout cracked.

Quoted message said:

Since Mark is the owner of Habanero Cycles, he is the best authority
available on whether a Habanero titanium frame has ever suffered a
broken or bent dropout. While he is neither prescient nor clairvoyant,
there is some potential for error, but presumably his customers would be
calling him if their dropouts were breaking or bending.

Have a look at his Web site. His frames do appear rather overbuilt in
the rear triangle, but titanium is such that this can be done with no
significant weight penalty. I can well believe his frames have not had
a failure here.

it would be hard to imagine anything in the rear triangle failing unless
it was hit by a truck.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
with the dropouts cracking.

What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?

Anyplace

Quoted message said:

we can see these 'reports'.

The frames I heard mentioned were Litespeeds & Merlin's. As to the
source it was a friend of mine who owns a bike shop.

Quoted message said:

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin

said that

Quoted message said:

he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
with the dropouts cracking.

What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?
Anyplace we can see these 'reports'.

The frames I heard mentioned were Litespeeds & Merlin's. As to the
source it was a friend of mine who owns a bike shop.

Quoted message said:

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin
said that he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

Interesting. I've personally owned a number of Ti framed bikes, including
Litespeed, Merlin, Serotta (several) and Colnago. I've not had a cracked
dropout on any of them, nor have I heard of *any* Ti bike having a cracked
dropout, nor have I read *anywhere* on *any* newsgroup or *any* bicycling
forum about a bike having a cracked dropout. But that's just me.

I would think that cracking dropouts would be *big* news.

"Dave Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
> with the dropouts cracking.
What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?
Anyplace we can see these 'reports'.

The frames I heard mentioned were Litespeeds & Merlin's. As to the
source it was a friend of mine who owns a bike shop.

Quoted message said:

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin
said that he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

Interesting. I've personally owned a number of Ti framed bikes, including
Litespeed, Merlin, Serotta (several) and Colnago. I've not had a cracked
dropout on any of them, nor have I heard of *any* Ti bike having a cracked
dropout, nor have I read *anywhere* on *any* newsgroup or *any* bicycling
forum about a bike having a cracked dropout. But that's just me.

I would think that cracking dropouts would be *big* news.

I've got three "cheap" Chinese ti frames (not Habenaro) including a mountain
bike frame and they're ok. After seeing what the mountain bike frame has
survived I'd be amazed if the road frames ever had any kind of structural
failure.

Marty

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Wheeler said:

Mark Hickey said:

It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely 0.000000000000%....

Hmm. Thus Habanero has produced about as many frames as there are
grains of sand on the beaches of the world without a single failure.

If we take one mole [1] of Habanero frames, how many dropout failures
could we expect?

Up to 10^13 failures?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Tom Sherman said:

Tim McNamara said:

Tom Sherman said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

>It may be anecdotal evidence, but so far the percentage of Habanero
>frames that have had a cracked dropout is precisely
>0.000000000000%. Then again, the number of Habanero frames that
>have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
>that they might be overbuilt to the point where fatigue is not
>going to be a problem. Some other builders have different
>philosophies about that kind of thing...

The above statement does not hold up to scrutiny. Unless every
Habanero frame has a fail-proof secret tracking device that reports
any distress that occurs, it can only be stated that no failures of
these types have been reported and/or observed by the
manufacturer. An opinion may be formed from the available evidence
that the dropouts on Habanero frames are designed such that they do
not fail at a significant frequency in normal use, but not a
categorical statement that such failures have never occurred.

Since Mark is the owner of Habanero Cycles, he is the best authority
available on whether a Habanero titanium frame has ever suffered a
broken or bent dropout. While he is neither prescient nor
clairvoyant, there is some potential for error, but presumably his
customers would be calling him if their dropouts were breaking or
bending.

Saying an event is unlikely is not the same as being able to say with
certainty that it has not occurred.

I suppose it is possible that someone out there has had a failure, and
not bothered to tell me about it. Hard to imagine (since it's not
like their feedback is going to get lost in the "distribution
chain"😉... but that's highly unlikley.

Quoted message said:

A consulting engineer in the same position as Mark Hickey could
justifiably render a professional opinion [1] that the dropouts on
Habanero frames were adequately designed for their intended purpose.
However, if a consulting engineer made a statement similar to Mark
Hickey's in a deliverable to a client, he/she would be rendering his/her
firm practically defenseless in a negligence suit, since an absolute
statement was made without evidence to back it up.

It's true - most of us really don't have a life. ;-) Keep in mind my
statement was one of past tense. For all I know every single Habanero
dropout will fail this morning at precisely 8:22 PST. Errr, make that
8:45, otherwise I'll have to walk a bit.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>[email hidden] wrote:
>>I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
>>with the dropouts cracking.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dave Thompson wrote:
>What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?
>Anyplace we can see these 'reports'.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would think that cracking dropouts would be *big* news.

Marty Wallace said:

I've got three "cheap" Chinese ti frames (not Habenaro) including a mountain
bike frame and they're ok. After seeing what the mountain bike frame has
survived I'd be amazed if the road frames ever had any kind of structural
failure.

I have never seen or heard of a cracked titanium frame end
of any brand or model.

Downtubes, seat clusters, bridges, cable stops yes but never
a gear tab crack.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

I have never seen or heard of a cracked titanium frame end of any brand or
model.

Downtubes, seat clusters, bridges, cable stops yes but never a gear tab
crack.

--
Andrew Muzi

Andrew: I've seen Ti rear dropout failures, but not too many, and only
enough to realize that it doesn't matter what material you make a frame out
of, if you don't do it right, things happen. Likewise I've seen aluminum &
many steel rear dropout failures. Doesn't mean anything, unless the bike has
a zillion miles on it (so something, sometime, is going to eventually
fail!).

The only significance to Ti frame failures is that some believe Ti to be
some sort of indestructible material that nothing ever happens to. So
disappointing (to the uninformed) to realize that all materials are the same
in that regard...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
with the dropouts cracking.

What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?

Anyplace

Quoted message said:

we can see these 'reports'.

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin

said that

Quoted message said:

he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?