Re: Campaign launched against dietary supplements

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other very
vague things. The only way we can know for sure if something works is to
test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to interfere.
The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why even
the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill. Also if it is
not tested we don't know if someone would get better anyway. If I have a
cold and someone says take this pill and it will go away it will but not
because of the pill. But then I start to think it was the pill. This is
another reason we need things tested to see if they make a difference.

The role of medicine is to make people feel better and it should include the
use of placebos.
What the west calls placebo the east calls chi.
What about the negative placebo effect. Let's say a doctor spends 5 minutes
diagnosing you and gives you a pill. It was later found out that the pill
can cause deadly side effects in some people and that the pharm
manufacturers didn't tell people about.
How much confidence will you have on the doctor in the future and how much
confidence will you have on modern drugs in the future?
People are not very trustful of the "science".
What I am saying is that medicine is contextual.
Using your example, what if there was a drug that helped get rid of the cold
one day earlier than chicken soup does and the study released in science
magazine. It was later determined after years of long term study that the
drug causes leukemia.
What would be better for you in dealing with a cold?
Chicken soup and take the heckling from the modern med can do not harm group
or take the pill?
That is what those people in alternate health and supplements sell.
It should be supplemental with modern medicine and it should supply placebo.
People undergoing chemotherapy should have imagery therapy as well. You
visualize the cancer cells being destroyed as the chemo works. The best of
both worlds. You involve the patient and makes him an active participant and
gives him hope. Doctors are very inept at dealing with patients
psychological needs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The few homeopathic treatments I have taken have worked quite well with
me so far and that is why i will spend some money on it the next time i
feel i need treatment. And I do find that since i have included herbs
in my diet I do feel generally healthier with improved energy and
better mood. Amongst the people i know, the ones that claim that an
alternative treatment does not and can not ever work are the ones that
have never concidered ever trying it in the first place. And the ones
that claim that something works are the ones that have tried it, liked
it, and are themselves convinced that it works for them. After all,
these alternative treatments do cost money, and people generally demand
to get something when they pay for it. And as well many of these
products do have a money back guarantee of somekind or another. It
would be great if the expensive drugs prescribed by doctors could make
the same offer.
regards
andrew vecsey

Reading your signature below.... the only giant standing on your
shoulders is the pharmaceutical industry.

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John G. <[email hidden]> wrote:
>I doubt that supplement sales would keep perenially rising if
>consumers felt they were wasting their time and money on
>useless [censored].

Ha ha ha. People keep going to palmists and astrologers and
homeopaths.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other very
vague things.

Exactly. This is, of course, completely subjective and easily
manipulated.

Quoted message said:

The only way we can know for sure if something works is to
test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to interfere.
The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why even
the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill.

Right. There are some tests that appear to show that homeopathic
remedies outperformed placebos. There are plenty of others that show
the opposite, and we must remember that even random chance, with a 95%
confidence interval, will show "success" in one case out of twenty
even when there was, in fact, no success.

Quoted message said:

Also if it is not tested we don't know if someone would get better
anyway. If I have a cold and someone says take this pill and it will
go away it will but not because of the pill. But then I start to
think it was the pill. This is another reason we need things tested
to see if they make a difference.

That sums it up quite well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The few homeopathic treatments I have taken have worked quite well with
me so far and that is why i will spend some money on it the next time i
feel i need treatment.

Good for you, sweetheart. Me, I've tried several homeopathic remedies
and they didn't do a damn thing for me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I do find that since i have included herbs
in my diet I do feel generally healthier with improved energy and
better mood.

That has nothing to do with homeopathy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Amongst the people i know, the ones that claim that an
alternative treatment does not and can not ever work are the ones that
have never concidered ever trying it in the first place.

That may be. But I've tried several types and I've been quite
unimpressed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the ones that claim that something works are the ones that have
tried it, liked it, and are themselves convinced that it works for
them.

"Convinced" being the key word here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After all, these alternative treatments do cost money, and people
generally demand to get something when they pay for it. And as well
many of these products do have a money back guarantee of somekind or
another.

Whoopee. How many people avail themselves of such guarantees when the
product doesn't work, especially if it's not that expensive?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be great if the expensive drugs prescribed by doctors could
make the same offer.

It would. But results are awfully hard to prove.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

regards
andrew vecsey

Reading your signature below.... the only giant standing on your
shoulders is the pharmaceutical industry.

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
John G. <[email hidden]> wrote:
>I doubt that supplement sales would keep perenially rising if
>consumers felt they were wasting their time and money on
>useless [censored].

Ha ha ha. People keep going to palmists and astrologers and
homeopaths.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other very
vague things.

Exactly. This is, of course, completely subjective and easily
manipulated.

You don't want people with terminal diseases to feel good?
You don't want anybody taking any medicine to feel good?
The whole point is to manipulate it SO people can feel good.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only way we can know for sure if something works is to
test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to

interfere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why even
the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill.

Right. There are some tests that appear to show that homeopathic
remedies outperformed placebos. There are plenty of others that show
the opposite, and we must remember that even random chance, with a 95%
confidence interval, will show "success" in one case out of twenty
even when there was, in fact, no success.

Quoted message said:

Also if it is not tested we don't know if someone would get better
anyway. If I have a cold and someone says take this pill and it will
go away it will but not because of the pill. But then I start to
think it was the pill. This is another reason we need things tested
to see if they make a difference.

That sums it up quite well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The few homeopathic treatments I have taken have worked quite well with
me so far and that is why i will spend some money on it the next time i
feel i need treatment.

Good for you, sweetheart. Me, I've tried several homeopathic remedies
and they didn't do a damn thing for me.

Your belief system did not allow for even the 40% placebo to take hold.
I feel sorry for you if you ever get an untreatable disease with no known
relief. You are not a candidate for reduced pain caused by placebos.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I do find that since i have included herbs
in my diet I do feel generally healthier with improved energy and
better mood.

That has nothing to do with homeopathy.

It has everything to do with feeling healthier.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Amongst the people i know, the ones that claim that an
alternative treatment does not and can not ever work are the ones that
have never concidered ever trying it in the first place.

That may be. But I've tried several types and I've been quite
unimpressed.

Again, you are a good candidate for a major depression if you ever run into
major illness that modern medicine does not have a good treatment for.
Why do surgeons say a prayer before they perform surgery?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the ones that claim that something works are the ones that have
tried it, liked it, and are themselves convinced that it works for
them.

"Convinced" being the key word here.

If a person has cancer and has it removed surgically, is that person
convinced it won't return?
If a person has prostate cancer and has the prostate removed, is that person
convinced that he is better off without it?
Only 30% of all medical treatment modalities have ever had clinical studies
performed on them. The rest (70%) are convinced that it works.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After all, these alternative treatments do cost money, and people
generally demand to get something when they pay for it. And as well
many of these products do have a money back guarantee of somekind or
another.

Whoopee. How many people avail themselves of such guarantees when the
product doesn't work, especially if it's not that expensive?

If it doesn't work they won't buy it again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be great if the expensive drugs prescribed by doctors could
make the same offer.

It would. But results are awfully hard to prove.

The more expensive drugs produce the largest placebo effect.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other very
vague things. The only way we can know for sure if something works is to
test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to interfere.
The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why even
the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill. Also if it is
not tested we don't know if someone would get better anyway. If I have a
cold and someone says take this pill and it will go away it will but not
because of the pill. But then I start to think it was the pill. This is
another reason we need things tested to see if they make a difference.

The role of medicine is to make people feel better and it should include the
use of placebos.
What the west calls placebo the east calls chi.

Well, I think that last sentence alone demonstrates your massive
ignorance on the subject. Placebos and chi have only a tangential
relationship.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message new

Quoted message said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other
very
vague things.

Exactly. This is, of course, completely subjective and easily
manipulated.

Quoted message said:

You don't want people with terminal diseases to feel good?
You don't want anybody taking any medicine to feel good?
The whole point is to manipulate it SO people can feel good.

By lying to people or hoping they're so gullible that it can't fail? Is
this one of the goals of the "Every Child Left Behind" initiative?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good for you, sweetheart. Me, I've tried several homeopathic remedies
and they didn't do a damn thing for me.

Your belief system did not allow for even the 40% placebo to take hold.
I feel sorry for you if you ever get an untreatable disease with no known
relief. You are not a candidate for reduced pain caused by placebos.

Are you seriously suggesting that remedies that work only by placebo can
never be used to help anyone but the crdulous?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>alternative treatment does not and can not ever work are the ones that
>have never concidered ever trying it in the first place.

That may be. But I've tried several types and I've been quite
unimpressed.

Quoted message said:

Again, you are a good candidate for a major depression if you ever run
into
major illness that modern medicine does not have a good treatment for.
Why do surgeons say a prayer before they perform surgery?

To themselves? Out loud while the patient's unconscious? Where do you get
this [censored] from? There are plenty of people who understand the placebo
effect and the limitations of "feel good" therapies who do relatively well
in tough situations. For instance, almost anyone who is a science or
medical professional. How do you account for that?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Convinced" being the key word here.

If a person has cancer and has it removed surgically, is that person
convinced it won't return?

Quoted message said:

If a person has prostate cancer and has the prostate removed, is that
person
convinced that he is better off without it?
Only 30% of all medical treatment modalities have ever had clinical
studies
performed on them. The rest (70%) are convinced that it works.

[censored]. This tired piece of anti-evidence-based medicine propaganda has
been debunked so many times that only committed liars or credulous fools
still spew it. Pick one. Most surgical procedures, for example, do not
have "clinical studies" performed since it would be unethical.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It would be great if the expensive drugs prescribed by doctors could
>make the same offer.

It would. But results are awfully hard to prove.

Quoted message said:

The more expensive drugs produce the largest placebo effect.

Evidence of this?

< chirp >
moo

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vague things. The only way we can know for sure if something works is

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to

interfere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill. Also if it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not tested we don't know if someone would get better anyway. If I have

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cold and someone says take this pill and it will go away it will but

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because of the pill. But then I start to think it was the pill. This

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

another reason we need things tested to see if they make a difference.

The role of medicine is to make people feel better and it should include

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use of placebos.
What the west calls placebo the east calls chi.

Well, I think that last sentence alone demonstrates your massive
ignorance on the subject. Placebos and chi have only a tangential
relationship.

Your problem is you can't see the forest for the trees. You separate
everything and call everything tangential.
Health is a vague term and so is medicine.
The life force is within each one of us with placebos and chi and anything
else you want to call it including God can be used to create a positive
healthy environment.
Continue to separate and dissect everything and the parts do not equal the
whole.

Quoted message said:

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message new

Quoted message said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the

selling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other
>very
>vague things.

Exactly. This is, of course, completely subjective and easily
manipulated.

Quoted message said:

You don't want people with terminal diseases to feel good?
You don't want anybody taking any medicine to feel good?
The whole point is to manipulate it SO people can feel good.

By lying to people or hoping they're so gullible that it can't fail? Is
this one of the goals of the "Every Child Left Behind" initiative?

I was talking about making someone feel better and where is the lie in that.
If you give somebody a bowl of chicken soup for a cold are you lying to
them?
If something helps then fine and if it doesn't then they themselves will
find something else. The alternative is not caring because there is nothing
that can be done for them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good for you, sweetheart. Me, I've tried several homeopathic remedies
and they didn't do a damn thing for me.

Your belief system did not allow for even the 40% placebo to take hold.
I feel sorry for you if you ever get an untreatable disease with no

known

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

relief. You are not a candidate for reduced pain caused by placebos.

Are you seriously suggesting that remedies that work only by placebo can
never be used to help anyone but the crdulous?

By definition a so called placebo is intrinsically useless and it is the
mind that makes it effective. If you don't believe in it then how in the
world will it work? It won't work if the person doesn't know he's taking it.
There are remedies that may or may not be placebo and no one cares as long
as it works.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>alternative treatment does not and can not ever work are the ones

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>have never concidered ever trying it in the first place.

That may be. But I've tried several types and I've been quite
unimpressed.

Quoted message said:

Again, you are a good candidate for a major depression if you ever run
into
major illness that modern medicine does not have a good treatment for.
Why do surgeons say a prayer before they perform surgery?

To themselves? Out loud while the patient's unconscious?

The surgeon says a prayer for him and the patient.

Where do you get

Quoted message said:

this [censored] from?

The catholic hospital I work for.

There are plenty of people who understand the placebo

Quoted message said:

effect and the limitations of "feel good" therapies who do relatively well
in tough situations. For instance, almost anyone who is a science or
medical professional. How do you account for that?

??
How do you explain the effects of accupuncture on treating ailments such as
high blood pressure and pain. It is possible to perform surgery without
anesthesia in some cases.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Convinced" being the key word here.

If a person has cancer and has it removed surgically, is that person
convinced it won't return?

Quoted message said:

If a person has prostate cancer and has the prostate removed, is that
person
convinced that he is better off without it?
Only 30% of all medical treatment modalities have ever had clinical
studies
performed on them. The rest (70%) are convinced that it works.

[censored]. This tired piece of anti-evidence-based medicine propaganda has
been debunked so many times that only committed liars or credulous fools
still spew it. Pick one. Most surgical procedures, for example, do not
have "clinical studies" performed since it would be unethical.

How is this anti-evidence based to ask for evidence.
Where are the comparative studies of medical management vs stint vs
angioplasty vs cab?
Hysterectomies were being performed way out of line in terms of numbers in
order to make money and is it therefore unethical to question the procedure
because it is a surgery?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>It would be great if the expensive drugs prescribed by doctors could
>>make the same offer.

It would. But results are awfully hard to prove.

Quoted message said:

The more expensive drugs produce the largest placebo effect.

Evidence of this?

< chirp >
moo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Robert said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> I think this kind of "feel" good is what is being sold. In the selling
> there is often a great point made about "increased energy" and other

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> vague things. The only way we can know for sure if something works is

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> test it wherethings like these mental things are not allowed to

interfere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The placebo effect is what the science people call it. That is why

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the person testing some new thing doesn't know which pill has the new
> stuff and which has some typical thing like a sugar pill. Also if it

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> not tested we don't know if someone would get better anyway. If I have

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> cold and someone says take this pill and it will go away it will but

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> because of the pill. But then I start to think it was the pill. This

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> another reason we need things tested to see if they make a difference.

The role of medicine is to make people feel better and it should include

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use of placebos.
What the west calls placebo the east calls chi.

Well, I think that last sentence alone demonstrates your massive
ignorance on the subject. Placebos and chi have only a tangential
relationship.

Your problem is you can't see the forest for the trees. You separate
everything and call everything tangential.

No, I'm just calling you ignorant, which is quite true. You obviously
have no idea what chi is.

Quoted message said:

Health is a vague term and so is medicine.

Not that vague.

Quoted message said:

The life force is within each one of us with placebos and chi and
anything else you want to call it including God can be used to create
a positive healthy environment.

Speaking of pathetically vague...

Quoted message said:

Continue to separate and dissect everything and the parts do not
equal the whole.

But if you don't understand any of the parts, I don't think you're
going to understand the whole, either.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)