Upgrade to Triple Rear Derailleur

Quoted message said:

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Not only are you wasting money on the shifters, you're quite likely
wasting money on the new derailer.

There is actually no such thing as a "triple" rear derailer, that's
marketing talk. There are long-cage derailers, but you don't
necessarily need one, even with a triple chainring.

If you have good shifting habits and don't use the smallest chainring
with the smaller rear sprockets (you really shouldn't do this anyway)
you can often get along with a short cage derailer.

If you need to buy a derailer anyway, go for the long cage "triple"
version, but if you already have a short cage derailer, try it out
before throwing money away.

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is harmless.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/capacity

Sheldon "Try Before You Buy" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through |
| conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.

Quoted message said:

Hello All,

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change

to

Quoted message said:

the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I

am

Quoted message said:

thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

I have used 1998 Chorus shifters with a 2002/2003 Centaur medium cage
rear derailleur and the shifting is OK. There is a slight degradation
compared to the 1998 Chorus rear derailleur, but it is only noticeable
if you are aware of the mismatch in shifter/derailleur and try to
recognize it. In normal riding you won't notice any difference. So
you are probably wasting your money if you buy new shifters after only
6000 miles.

I have never tried the 2002/2003 Centaur shifters with the 1998 Chorus
rear derailleur but would guess the mismatch there is also immaterial.

"Peter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is
impossible to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the
chain.

The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.

Although I agree, many simply don't adhere to this.

Case in point: experienced MTB racer A rides with a short chain to minimize
slap and to enhance shifting. He or she lets barney B ride it, forgetting
to tell him or her that the chain is short. Rider B shifts into a bad
combination... it doesn't go and continues to mash the pedals to "get it to
shift," eventually grinding things to a halt.

It happens more often than you think.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

I said:

Quoted message said:

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
harmless.

Phil, Squid-in-Training replied:

Quoted message said:

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

No that can't happen unless the chain is too short.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html#chain

Sheldon "Not A Problem" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Man does not live by words alone, |
| despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them. |
| --Adlai Stevenson |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Phil said:

"Peter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

>If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is
impossible to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the
chain.

The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.

Although I agree, many simply don't adhere to this.

Case in point: experienced MTB racer A rides with a short chain to minimize
slap and to enhance shifting. He or she lets barney B ride it, forgetting
to tell him or her that the chain is short. Rider B shifts into a bad
combination... it doesn't go and continues to mash the pedals to "get it to
shift," eventually grinding things to a halt.

It happens more often than you think.

You have no idea how often I think this happens.
Doesn't change the fact that rider A was being stupid in making the
chain too short for his geartrain. I've actually never seen the
chain break in this situation, but I have seen derailers (SB spelling)
torn apart and a dropout twisted.

may have said:

Hello All,

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur).

Unless there has been something odd going on when I wasn't watching.
rear ders don't give a flop whether the front is a dual or a triple.
All that matters is whether the der has enough total take-up capacity
in the cage for the extreme combinations of sprockets in the setup.
Most road-oriented rear ders have less capability in this area than
the typical mtb-oriented der, but most road bikes don't have the range
of gearing of the typical mtb, either. In most cases, however, you
can upgrade the front to a triple without doing anything about the
rear.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Hello All,

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

If you just need a long cage rear derailleur to replace your std. cage
Veloce, than that's all you need. Six thousand miles on your shifters
is just wearing in and you don't need to match the shift disk, change
shifters, or do anything else.

Quoted message said:

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Probably.
If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
spring set is only $10.
All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Thanks Andrew. What about the difference in the shifter cam between
the pre-2001 and post-2001 shifter models? If I use the pre-2001 cam
with the post-2001 derailleur, will I really notice a difference?

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current

triple

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters,

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so

I am

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Probably.
If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
spring set is only $10.
All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over the
2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
shifter cam. Sound right?

On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

rmhcyclist said:

I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over

the

Quoted message said:

2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
shifter cam. Sound right?

No. There have been no performance improvements in rear derailleurs
from at least the mid 1990s until now. They all work just fine. The
only difference is weight, cage length, and whether it is a Shimano or
Campagnolo brand for movement of the parallelagram. Since you are
considering going from 2000 Veloce to 2004 Centaur, the only reason for
this is to get a longer cage and take up the extra chain when using a
triple. If you need this chain wrap, then make the change.

The long and medium cage rear derailleurs are rated as being able to
clear a larger rear cog but I can clear a 28 cog with my short cage
1998 Chorus rear derailleur so I am pretty sure you can clear a 29 cog
with current or 2000 Veloce short cage rear derailleurs. Clearing a
bigger cog in back is not a reason to change your Veloce short cage
rear derailleur for a Centaur long or medium cage rear derailleur.

Quoted message said:

On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

No. I've never noticed any shifting difference between short or long
or medium cage rear derailleurs. Some folks can probably tell the
difference. These folks can also tell what material their seatpost is
made of. Chain wrap capacity, weight, and for Shimano MTB long cage
rear derailleurs, the ability to clear larger cogs, are the differences
between short and long or medium cage rear derailleurs.

Keep in mind with Campagnolo rear derailleurs, you have a choice of
short, medium, and long cages. The short is obvious. The medium cage
looks long. But the long is even longer. I have the 2002/2003 Centaur
medium cage rear derailleur. It is able to handle the chain wrap on a
52-42-26 crankset with 13-28 rear cassette. A 24 tooth front inner
chainring produces more chain droop than I can tolerate. So if you are
going to get a long cage Campagnolo rear derailleur, I would recommend
getting the official "long" cage model and not the medium length. You
have more options with the official "long" cage model. Over on the
Campagnolo website it lists the cage length of the short, medium, and
long cage derailleurs. Good to know so you can officially measure the
derailleur and tell if it is medium or long.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:42:22 GMT, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"

may have said:

Quoted message said:

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

Most dropouts have enough angle to allow the wheel to be removed even
then...and this is why, when changing the gearing, one checks the
chain length at both extremes.

Half an ounce of QC saves a ton of embarassment.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current

triple

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters,

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so

I am

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

Probably.
If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
spring set is only $10.
All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.

Quoted message said:

Thanks Andrew. What about the difference in the shifter

cam between

Quoted message said:

the pre-2001 and post-2001 shifter models? If I use the

pre-2001 cam

Quoted message said:

with the post-2001 derailleur, will I really notice a

difference?

It's a minor variance which some riders notice, and most
don't. Ride it first before overreacting. $34.95 for a new
shift ring ('cam'😉 if required.

BTW yagotta wonder what Campagnolo was thinking on that one.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes! That has been causing me alot of frustration as I make decisions
about what I need.

On 8 Feb 2005 10:48:21 -0800, "rmhcyclist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over the
2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
shifter cam. Sound right?

On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

Usually the derailleurs aren't the problem. Alignment of the
derailleur hangar is frequently a culprit in erratic shifting. New,
quality housing and cables also makes a lot of difference.

I notice no difference in mismatches of Campy derailleurs and various
shifters. One bicycle, uses a Record 8 rear derailleur with Veloce 10
shifters and is perfect shifting a 13/29 cassette. My tandem is 1999
Daytona 9 with a Centaur 2003 long cage rear derailleur shifting
Shimano 9 and it's fine.