Lance goes for Seven

Blair P. Houghton said:

Mark Hickey said:

I think a better question is - how would Eddie do today trying to race
the kind of schedule he used to. There's no doubt the racing is a LOT
faster than it was in Eddie's day - could he have improved accordingly
with modern training methods? We'll never know... to me, Lance and
Eddie are apples and oranges.

We'll find out when Lance goes for the Hour record on an
Eddie-era bike setup.

--Blair
"When do tickets go on sale?"

Now that would be interesting. If he retires from the TdF and has time
on his hands he could train just for a speed record over the one hour
and have a good chance of taking it. Even 35.2 MPH would be the carrot
dangling in front of the next generation.
Bill Baka

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... The fact that Merckx is Belgian would make him pretty

close

Quoted message said:

to the Antichrist for some people in the UK!

I'm out of context here.

Quoted message said:

... Of all the competitive sports I believe cycling probably

has

Quoted message said:

the biggest and most public drugs culture.

No baseball in the U.K.

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

.....

Or have the best team of underpaid expendable immigrants and
foreigners pulling you over the mountains.

I didn't start following the TDF until the mid-nineties. What teams did
Mercx have and how did he use them? I've heard all about Eddy, but what
about his teams?

Chuck Davis

Quoted message said:

But really, think about it. In 1971, Merckx entered 120 professional
races and won 54 of them. Between 1969 and 1973, at the peak of his
career, he rode 650 races and won 250 of them. His career record was
1,582 races entered, 445 wins.

This brings up another factor, which - in my mind - is impossible to
quantify: Is the level of competition comparable between Merckx and
Armstrong?

Put another way, was Merckx (or Armstrong) really that good, or were there
just no worthy competitors at the time he was racing?

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:28:08 -0600, "Mike Kruger"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<1108428497.537f2358a8b87793d1f9d9568301790b@teranews>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... The fact that Merckx is Belgian would make him pretty
close to the Antichrist for some people in the UK!

Quoted message said:

I'm out of context here.

Brussels is the home of the European parliament. A certain category
of English people therefore believe that Brussels is the fountain
source of all evil. I don't think they have quite forgiven the French
for 1066 yet - and to be fair I am pretty certain that some Frenchmen
have not forgotten Agincourt. The average Little Englander is
probably unaware that Waterloo, a place of almost mythical
Britishness, is actually in Belgium. Or that the Belgians invented
chips (fries to you), brew some of the best beer in the world, love
hearty food, are famous for their beef and their chocolate, and are in
every other way natural soulmates of the average Brit. The
intersection of logic and politics is a null set, I guess :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... Of all the competitive sports I believe cycling probably
has the biggest and most public drugs culture.

Quoted message said:

No baseball in the U.K.

Heh! Fair point.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:08:34 -0800, Chris Neary
<[email hidden] > wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

This brings up another factor, which - in my mind - is impossible to
quantify: Is the level of competition comparable between Merckx and
Armstrong?

Quoted message said:

Put another way, was Merckx (or Armstrong) really that good, or were there
just no worthy competitors at the time he was racing?

Given the time span over which both competed it is hard to believe
that there were /no/ worthy competitors. Ullrich?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:16:19 -0700,
<[email hidden]>, Mark Hickey

Quoted message said:

I'd be surprised if "technological improvements" from the 70's 'til
now on road bikes would account more than a couple % difference in
speed... certainly nothing like the 12.7% difference in average
winning speed (though yes, a little of that has to do with time trial
technology).

Screw "speed" - I'm talking "class".
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/22/sum04/messenger.htm

"Searching for a comparative statistic, I graded a group of first-
class cyclists with one point for each victory in one of cycling’s
top-tier events: the three grand tours, the Paris-Nice stage race, the
major Classics, the world championships, and the world hour record.
Here’s how my nine hall of fame racers fared:

Eddy Merckx (b. 1945): forty-six points
Jacques Anquetil (1934-1987): twenty-four points
Bernard Hinault (b. 1954): twenty-three points
Fausto Coppi (1919-1960): twenty-one points
Gino Bartali (1914-2000): twelve points
Felice Gimondi (b. 1942): twelve points
Miguel Indurain (b. 1964): twelve points
Louison Bobet (1925-1983): ten points
Lance Armstrong (b. 1971): ten points"
--
zk

Mark Hickey said:

I'd be surprised if "technological improvements" from the
70's 'til now on road bikes would account more than a
couple % difference in speed... certainly nothing like the
12.7% difference in average winning speed

I haven't followed this thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned.

These are the total race length and mean stage length for Merckx' five tour
wins and Armstrong's six, with their means:

http://www.experienceplus.com/tour_de_france_spreadsheet.html

Merckx

4110 187
4366 190
3689 184
3846 192
4098 186

4021 188

Armstrong

3687 184
3661 174
3454 173
3278 164
3426 171
3360 168

3478 172

Merckx' average Tour was nearly 20% further than Armstrong's, and the
average stage over 9% further.

http://www.experienceplus.com/tour_de_france_graphs.html

shows how the average speed has increased as the average total distance has
fallen.

It's also true that road surfaces have improved in the thirty years since
Merckx' last win (especially in the mountains), and the Tour route passes
through fewer small town centres.

Hard to quantify, but it seems to me that the ratio of flat to mountainous
riding has also shifted.

James Thomson

Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:15:10 -0500, <[email hidden]>,

Chuck Davis said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

.....

Or have the best team of underpaid expendable immigrants and
foreigners pulling you over the mountains.

I didn't start following the TDF until the mid-nineties. What teams did
Mercx have and how did he use them? I've heard all about Eddy, but what
about his teams?

Today's teams have the advantage of instant communication with the
team director and other team members. The Molteni teams in Eddy's days
decided on their tactics before the stage.

Lance also "trains" on the various stages months before le Tour. Eddy
and the true "greats" were too busy riding and winning other races.
--
zk

"Chuck Davis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

.....

Or have the best team of underpaid expendable immigrants and
foreigners pulling you over the mountains.

I didn't start following the TDF until the mid-nineties. What teams did
Mercx have and how did he use them? I've heard all about Eddy, but what
about his teams?

Back in the good days teams would form alliances with each other
out on the road

The racing was much better as the team leader didn't have a team built
around him that would work for him. Look at what Roberto Visentini
on team Carrera had to put up with when that English speaking Stephen
Roche hijacked the team in '87 and won the Giro and TdF! Roche only
had Schepers on the team that would ride for him that year, ok Leali
and Bontempi made a few token efforts but that was it.

Also back then guys weren't afraid to push around types like those
Colombians Herrera, Parra, and the rest.

James Thomson said:

Merckx' average Tour was nearly 20% further than Armstrong's, and the
average stage over 9% further.

Very interesting.

When I asked how much racing speeds had generally increased, I really
wasn't thinking the Tour de France would be a good indicator. In
addition to the factors James pointed out (longer stage length and
overall length, better road surface, etc) we have the factors others
have pointed out (the rise of Tour specialists, better radio
communication, etc).

I don't know what percentage of the Tour peloton consists of tour
specialists. It's certainly higher than it was in Merckx's day. But
overall, the Tour has gone through tremendous changes. It's become
such a Special Event that it's dicey, at best, to use it for speed
comparisons with the days when it was just a big race.

Does anyone have data on races that have remained more consistent? The
ideal would be a road race whose route never varies, whose road surface
hasn't changed, which is of sufficient importance to consistently
attract serious racers, but which isn't so important that anyone builds
their entire season around it.

I'd dig for data myself, but I'm thoroughly ignorant about the racing
scene! I wouldn't even know what country to consider!

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have data on races that have remained more consistent? The
ideal would be a road race whose route never varies, whose road surface
hasn't changed, which is of sufficient importance to consistently
attract serious racers, but which isn't so important that anyone builds
their entire season around it.

Milan-San Remo?

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

On 16 Feb 2005 19:09:48 -0800, [email hidden] wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

The
ideal would be a road race whose route never varies, whose road surface
hasn't changed, which is of sufficient importance to consistently
attract serious racers, but which isn't so important that anyone builds
their entire season around it.

Some possibilities:
Milan-San Remo
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège-Bastogne-Liège
Paris-Roubaix

Actually most of the spring classics would probably be worth checking.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

16 Feb 2005 19:09:48 -0800,
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] wrote, in part:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have data on races that have remained more consistent? The
ideal would be a road race whose route never varies, whose road surface
hasn't changed, which is of sufficient importance to consistently
attract serious racers, but which isn't so important that anyone builds
their entire season around it.

I stumbled across this site tonight.

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/index.asp

It ranks the all-time and current greatest riders. There are some
interesting numbers, graphs and famous names.
It seems balanced in that it doesn't award extra points for being a
[censored], surviving chemo therapy or abandoning your family.
In fact, it doesn't even mention some of those guys simply because
they never ride in many of the classified races.
--
zk

Quoted message said:

He needs another new drug to win another Tour de france. His previous
drug dopping
was now revealed in the labortory. He could be caught if he tried the
dopping.
So Lance needs other dopping method to win another Tour De France.
Good luck drug addict.

Are you smoking too much pot?
Maggie

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:44:38 -0800, Zoot Katz <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/index.asp

Thanks, Zoot - I like that :-)

Amazing that the Badger came second.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:11:37 +0000,
<[email hidden]>,

Just zis Guy said:

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:44:38 -0800, Zoot Katz <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/index.asp

Thanks, Zoot - I like that :-)

Amazing that the Badger came second.

I liked his explanation of how he "helped" team-mate Greg Lemond win
the 1986 TdF - by constantly attacking him!
--
zk

b_baka said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

We'll find out when Lance goes for the Hour record on an
Eddie-era bike setup.

Now that would be interesting. If he retires from the TdF and has time
on his hands he could train just for a speed record over the one hour
and have a good chance of taking it. Even 35.2 MPH would be the carrot
dangling in front of the next generation.

IIRC he's said that he was thinking of doing the hour record
this year if he didn't do the TdF. So maybe next year.

--Blair
"Maybe I'll try it this year.
As long as it's a personal record.
For me's in my 40's..."

Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:48:13 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

Blair P. Houghton said:

IIRC he's said that he was thinking of doing the hour record
this year if he didn't do the TdF. So maybe next year.

He and his promoters are talking of building a special velodrome
somewhere in the US, (for the increased revenues available in that
market) probably at altitude (for the decreased air resistance) and
then tearing it down after his presumed record is in the books. If
they decide to go that route his record will always lack credibility
as well as being an entirely selfish thing to do in country with a
dearth of modern velodromes for up-and-coming racers.

To honestly beat Boardman, he should ride Boardman's UCI approved bike
in Manchester.
--
zk

The biggest dope I see here is you.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He needs another new drug to win another Tour de france. His previous
drug dopping
was now revealed in the labortory. He could be caught if he tried the
dopping.
So Lance needs other dopping method to win another Tour De France.
Good luck drug addict.