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What makes Kosher Dill Pickles sour?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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17 February 2005
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24 February 2005
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beebe
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  1. Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
    came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
    not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
    I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
    and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
    summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).

    Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
    the ones you get in new york city?

    thanks,

    beebe

  2. "beebe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
    came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
    not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
    I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
    and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
    summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).

    Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
    the ones you get in new york city?

    thanks,

    beebe

    Yep go here;

    http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5342.html

    Thanks for the link Sheldon.

    Dimitri

  3. Dimitri, thanks, but I have recipe's; my question has to do with what
    adjustments to make based on my results so far....

    brad

  4. On Thu 17 Feb 2005 02:21:42p, beebe wrote in rec.food.cooking:

    Quoted message said:

    Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
    came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
    not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
    I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
    and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
    summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).

    Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
    the ones you get in new york city?

    thanks,

    beebe

    What color and what texture are the Kosher dills you're trying to
    duplicate?

    "Half-Sours" are not nearly so salty, since they spend much less time in
    the brine before eating. Many delis serve half-sours.

    You didn't describe the process you used for making the pickles that you
    found too salty. Knowing that would help in identifying the problem.

    Wayne

  5. "beebe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Dimitri, thanks, but I have recipe's; my question has to do with what
    adjustments to make based on my results so far....

    brad

    Please post the recipe and the amounts of the spices and whether you are
    using fresh or dried.

    Dimitri

  6. beebe said:

    Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles,

    You mean Kosher-Style... I seriously doubt your pickles will be kosher.

    and my first batch

    Quoted message said:

    came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I


    could

    Quoted message said:

    not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The


    dill

    Quoted message said:

    I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish,


    etc.,

    Quoted message said:

    and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available


    late

    Quoted message said:

    summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).

    Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
    the ones you get in new york city?

    For true dill flavored pickles using FRESH dill is imperative (dried
    dillweed, and other dried herbs, will not impart much flavor when
    rehydrated in salt/vinegar-acid solution). To derive full value from
    your dried herbs they should be rehydrated in plain *cold* water prior
    to cooking... it's especially important to rehydrate oregano and basil
    before adding to tomato sauce (I usually remember but sometimes I
    don't-tremendous difference).

    For sour pickles you need to add sour salt.

    citric acid
    [SIHT-rihk]
    A white powder extracted from the juice of citrus and other acidic
    fruits (such as lemons, limes, pineapples and gooseberries). It's also
    produced by the FERMENTATION of glucose. Citric acid has a strong, [censored]
    taste and is used as a flavoring agent for foods and beverages. Small
    bottles of crystallized *sour salt* (also called citric salt ) are
    often found in the kosher-foods section of supermarkets. Sour salt is
    used to impart a [censored] flavor to traditional dishes such as BORSCHT.

    © Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based on THE FOOD
    LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler Herbst.
    ---

  7. Sheldon said:
    beebe said:

    Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles,


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
    the ones you get in new york city?

    For true dill flavored pickles using FRESH dill is imperative (dried
    dillweed, and other dried herbs, will not impart much flavor when
    rehydrated in salt/vinegar-acid solution). To derive full value from
    your dried herbs they should be rehydrated in plain *cold* water prior
    to cooking... it's especially important to rehydrate oregano and basil
    before adding to tomato sauce (I usually remember but sometimes I
    don't-tremendous difference).

    For sour pickles you need to add sour salt.

    [snipped irrelevant citric acid info]

    "Kosher" dill pickles are fermented in a salt brine, so the sour comes
    from lactic acid created during the fermentation. The longer they
    ferment, the more sour they get. "Half-sour" pickles are only fermented
    briefly. Kosher dills are usually flavored with fresh dill, garlic, and
    a little bit of hot red pepper.

    The fermented pickles are sometimes rinsed to remove some of the salt,
    and then packed in jars with diluted vinegar and spices -- but I doubt
    any self-respecting deli would serve vinegar pickles.

    Dillseed makes an almost passable substitute for fresh dill when making
    pickles. When you have access to fresh dill, you can freeze it for
    later use.

    Best regards,
    Bob

  8. beebe said:

    thanks, sheldon. If I use sour salt, does that replace the salt
    ingredient entirely, or is it an addition to the recipe?

    Sheldon doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to sour salt.
    You will notice that the Food Lover's Companion excerpt he posted said
    nothing about using citric acid in pickles.

    Pickles are made with vinegar, or lactic acid (from fermentation), or
    both. HTH :-)

    Bob

  9. yeah, you're right, bob. hmmm, now I'm thinking that I'll have to grow
    some dill this year, and save it for the fall!

  10. beebe said:

    I couldn't find fresh dill heads, so I used the dill as my prior
    message notes. Also, I used a plastic gallon container that I got from
    The Pickle Guys in nyc, and I poured boiling water over the cukes for
    5mins, and then boiled the saltwater and poured that into the container
    with ingredients. I had the container closd for 10 days between 60-68
    F, shaking twice a day, tried one, and then added another tsp of dill
    seed, waited another 5 days before putting it in the fridge.

    Did you let the salt water cool before pouring it into the container?
    Did you notice any sign of fermentation, like foaming or even
    overflowing of the closed container?

    Victor

  11. I found the cucumbers at a local mexican produce store (in Concord,
    California); that's why I've made the pickles at this time.

  12. beebe writes:

    Mail me your correct email address, please.

    Sheldon

  13. beebe said:

    no foaming, and the container did not seem to expand; actually, the
    brine level went down about 3/4" over the 15 days.

    Sounds like no fermentation happened and no lactic acid was formed, so
    you effectively ended up just brining your cucumbers. Nothing wrong
    with this, but the taste is, of course, different.

    I've never made Mimi Sheraton's recipe, but chances are good it works.
    Just follow its instructions to the letter. For example, a recipe of
    hers I found on the Net doesn't call for the water to be heated. Many
    recipes do call for this, but only in order to be able to dissolve salt
    more easily and quickly. The water is then usually supposed to be
    cooled down to room temperature, though. Here are three tried-and-true
    recipes I posted before. Perhaps you'll have more success with them.
    Notice that the 'accelerated' version is actually just quick brining,
    using boiling water, not fermenting, so you might not want to use it.

    Here is a recipe from The 2nd Ave Deli Cookbook. The pickles served at
    the Deli are not the very best I have ever tasted but still very good.

    Pickles

    you can pickle firm green tomatoes or beets the same way.

    20 small Kirby cucumbers (choose firm, fresh, unwaxed, bumpy-textured
    cucumbers that are close to equal in size)
    3/4 cup kosher salt
    15 whole garlic cloves, unpeeled
    1 bunch of fresh dill
    2 tablespoons pickling spices or:
    1 1/2 teaspoons mustard seeds
    1 1/2 teaspoons whole black peppercorns
    1 teaspoon coriander seeds
    1 teaspoon dill seeds
    6 bay leaves
    1 hot dried red pepper

    1. Scrub the cucumbers with a brush in clear water.
    2. Pour 1 gallon of water into a large stockpot, add salt, and bring to
    a boil. Turn off heat, and allow water to return to room temperature.
    While water is cooling, wrap unpeeled garlic cloves in a cloth napkin,
    and crush them lightly with the back of a large knife.
    3. Pack the cucumber tightly into wide-mouthed jars, add all other
    ingredients (distribute equally), and pour salted water over them. The
    cucumbers must be covered completely. Put the lid on, shake jar to
    distribute spices evenly, and store in a cool place (do not
    refrigerate). Open the jar once a day to skim off foam. In 4 days, the
    pickles will be half-sour, and can keep, refrigerated, for several
    weeks. For sour pickles, do not refrigerate until 6 days have passed.

    ____
    And here are a couple of recipes I use myself. One is for sour and
    half-sour pickles as traditionally made in Russia. These are what
    all those deli pickles are striving to be. The recipe calls for a lot
    of cucumbers, but you can scale it. The other recipe is an accelerated
    version, if you want to make them really fast.

    Traditionally-made sour and half-sour pickles

    Note: You get the best results by selecting very fresh cucumbers,
    picked on the same day, if possible, or, failing that, the day before.
    They shouldn't be kept dry for any length of time - put them in iced
    water at once. That way, cucumbers won't be hollow. Also,
    traditionally, cucumbers are pickled in oak barrels which, together with
    various leaves and sometimes even tree bark, add some tannin to the
    brine, making the cucumbers crisp and crunchy.

    10 kg (22 pounds) cucumbers, 4-7 cm (1.6-2.8 inches) in length, cleaned
    and washed
    2 heads of garlic, divided in cloves and peeled, OR some shavings of
    horseradish root
    currant leaves, if you can find them
    oak leaves, ditto
    cherry leaves, ditto
    (Some people add a couple of horseradish leaves, too)
    fresh dill
    coarse (kosher) non-iodised salt
    2 teaspoons sugar

    Find a suitable receptacle, such as a non-reactive bucket, a wooden
    barrel or cask, or large glass jars. Layer the leaves on the bottom,
    then the cucumbers in the upright position, packing them tightly, then
    add some garlic cloves. Then put on the layer of leaves again, then
    cucumbers, garlic and dill and repeat all of the above until the
    receptacle is filled. The last layer should be leaves and dill.

    Dissolve kosher salt in water (1 tablespoon per 1 litre (1.1 quart)),
    and fill the receptacle to the top. It is easier to dissolve salt in
    hot water, which has to be cooled afterwards. Cover the receptacle with
    a wooden cover or with a plate, put a clean cloth on top and weigh it
    down with a heavy stone or something. Keep in a cool place.

    The cucumbers will be ready in 1-2 weeks and will keep for a long
    time. After one week, they will be so-called malosolnyye (lightly
    salted or half-sour) pickles - which many people love. After a month,
    they will be completely salted (full sour). From time to time, check
    the wooden cover or plate and the cloth for signs of mould and clean and
    wash them accordingly.

    In a town dwelling, it would perhaps be better to use sealed glass jars
    of 1-2 quart capacity. In this case, pack the ingredients tightly in
    jars, fill with the salty brine and seal. Put in a cool place for a
    week. During this time the brine will ferment and some of it may
    escape. This is not a problem - just pour off a bit of the brine, wipe
    the jar dry and seal again. Afterwards just keep the jars in a cool
    place.

    Fast version

    2 kg (4.4 pounds) small young cucumbers
    optionally, 3-4 currant leaves, or 3-4 oak leaves, or both (then fewer
    of each kind)
    optionally, a couple of horseradish or cherry leaves
    optionally, some freshly grated horseradish root
    a large sprig or two of dill
    7-8 garlic cloves
    salt (80-120 g (2.8-4.2 oz) per 2 litres (2.1 quarts) of water)

    Put cucumbers in ice-cold water and refrigerate for a few hours (this
    step is optional).
    Cut off both ends of cucumbers and place them into a non-reactive
    container, layering the leaves and horseradish (if used), as well as the
    dill and the garlic in between.
    Dissolve the salt in boiling water and taste it to make sure it's
    pleasantly salty. Pour the hot solution over cucumbers, making sure
    they are fully covered (if they float, weigh them down with something).
    The cucumbers will be ready to eat in 4 hours to 2 days, depending on
    your preference. Once you deem them to be ready, refrigerate them to
    slow down any further development. They will stay at that stage for a
    week or so.

    Victor

  14. Victor Sack said:
    beebe said:

    no foaming, and the container did not seem to expand; actually, the
    brine level went down about 3/4" over the 15 days.

    Sounds like no fermentation happened and no lactic acid was formed,


    so

    Quoted message said:

    you effectively ended up just brining your cucumbers. Nothing wrong
    with this, but the taste is, of course, different.

    I've never made Mimi Sheraton's recipe, but chances are good it


    works.

    If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full sour*
    pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished out of a huge
    wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan bright green crisp oblong sour
    behemoth, so sour it'll keep your lips puckered all the rest of the day
    and then some... it will have been soured with the addition of sour
    salt, and NEVER a drop of vinegar. I learned to make sour pickles in
    wooden barrels at a real NYC kosher deli when I was four (4) years
    old... I was also in charge of the prepared deli mustard... I can
    prepare mustard toots faster than you can count pennies to pay for
    them.

  15. beebe said:

    oh, and I poured the saltwater in warm/hot (not boiling).

    With fermented pickles the brine should NOT be heated... but neither
    should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

  16. On 20 Feb 2005 17:05:22 -0800, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    a gargantuan bright green crisp oblong

    Howdy,

    In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
    not crisp...

    All the best,
    --
    Kenneth

    If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

  17. well, I don't have the fancy-shmancy crock like the recipe, so I'm
    using the plastic wide-mouth container from Pickle Guys, and I used the
    two-step hot water/brine process (non-chlorinated). So, I'll have to
    stick with the container for now, but I can alter the water/brine
    process and some sour salt (or lemon?). I'm thinking that I'll use the
    initial boiling water bath, followed by room-temp brine. Actually, the
    current batch is getting quite good🙂

    Sheldon said:
    beebe said:

    oh, and I poured the saltwater in warm/hot (not boiling).

    With fermented pickles the brine should NOT be heated... but neither
    should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

  18. beebe said:

    well, I don't have the fancy-shmancy crock like the recipe, so I'm
    using the plastic wide-mouth container from Pickle Guys,

    Plastic is passable but glass is far better... I prefer 1 gallon pickle
    jars with screw on caps... so begin saving glass jars for next time.
    With the metal screw on lids wrap with 2-3 layers of plastic wrap...
    only place the caps on after initial fermentation and before
    refrigeration but screw on *loosely* so that gasses can escape. Crocks
    are good too but they are kind of messy for hime pickling. I used to
    do a lot of pickling, but of late I only prepare a couple of gallons...
    pickles are addictive and I don't need all that salt.

    and I used the

    Quoted message said:

    two-step hot water/brine process (non-chlorinated). So, I'll have to
    stick with the container for now, but I can alter the water/brine
    process and some sour salt (or lemon?). I'm thinking that I'll use


    the

    Quoted message said:

    initial boiling water bath, followed by room-temp brine. Actually,


    the

    Quoted message said:

    current batch is getting quite good🙂

    Quoted message said:

    should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

    I don't boil anything, never had a problem... just wash things well...
    fermented pickles really don't need sterile. in fact "sterile
    fermentation" is an oxymoron.

  19. On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    <<SNIP>>

    Quoted message said:

    Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
    fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
    fancy-neato word for rotted).

    But earlier, you wrote:

    If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
    sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
    out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
    bright green crisp oblong sour

    and I responded:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
    not crisp...

    Which, of course, you dismissed.

    But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour,
    the less crisp.

    All that remains is for me to ask:

    Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?

    All the best,

    --
    Kenneth

    If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

  20. On Wed 23 Feb 2005 05:02:02p, Kenneth wrote in rec.food.cooking:

    Quoted message said:

    On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    <<SNIP>>

    Quoted message said:

    Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
    fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
    fancy-neato word for rotted).

    But earlier, you wrote:

    If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
    sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
    out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
    bright green crisp oblong sour

    and I responded:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly not
    crisp...

    Which, of course, you dismissed.

    But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour,
    the less crisp.

    All that remains is for me to ask:

    Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?

    All the best,

    Well, I didn't write this, but full-sours usually have a dark olive skin
    with a semi-transluscent flesh, are not very crisp, definitely more sour
    and also taste saltier. Half-sours are bright green with flesh that looks
    almost like a fresh cucumber, are crisp, almost not sour at all, and have a
    much milder degree of saltiness. I've eaten both that were commercially
    made, I've made both at home, and I can surely tell the difference.

    Wayne

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